Somehting I noticed with the beastmen...

Okay So Out of all the benevolent beastmen factions, only two so far are different colros from their tempered counterparts, The Ixal and the Sylphs. Interestingly they are both Green and they are fount in the Black Shroud. The other beastmen don't have morality-based pallettes and the live outside the Shroud. Coincidence? maybe but this is interesting nonethe less.

What are your thoughts on this and why are the good Ixal and Sylphs both green?

Novv's Sahagins are a different color, the Amaljaa of the Ring of Ash have blue bands instead of red, and uh... the 789th Kobolds have something different I'm sure.

The good guy kobalds have white paint on their helms, the baddie kobalds have red paint (If I remember right. I'm pretty sure I do).

Are those colors they original ones? they changes once they are tempered by their primals? I notice on thise beastribe that, on the very past, most of the tribes didnt had the primals as their gods, they even knew nothing about them. Another thing is the syphls and the sahagins, despite pray to their primals and beliebe on them,, they are arent tempered and they know that summon them is something that it should be used as a last resort, knowing the consecuenes of calling them

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Novv's Sahagins are a different color, the Amaljaa of the Ring of Ash have blue bands instead of red, and uh... the 789th Kobolds have something different I'm sure.

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Yeah I was on the fence about the Sahagin thing but I excluded the Amall'ja...

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Originally Posted by Lucke

The good guy kobalds have white paint on their helms, the baddie kobalds have red paint (If I remember right. I'm pretty sure I do).

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and the Kobolds because their cases are more differences int he clothing/armor then psychical changes

I don't think the Sahagan or Kobolds are tempered. Novv's are just young, and even higher order Kobold speak with you as rationally as they do. Novv himself is a high ranked Sahagan that works with you (note: he does mention worshiping leviathan, but is definitely not tempered by him), and his son changes his mind and goes out on a journey that a crazy Primal would never allow a follower to go on. And neither group really shows signs of tempering, or mentions their Primal more than just in some small bit of dialog.

The Ixal, Sylphs, and Amalj'aa all have stotylines that have a lot to do with their tempered kin. The Amalj'aa probably don't have and skin coloration differences due to them being black, sI the used a clothing color difference instead.

Wasn't it mentioned that titan doesn't like tempering, unless provoked?

Keep in mind that you don't have to be tempered to worship a primal. The Sahagin, Sylphs and Kobolds all do so willingly, they just have different stances on actually summoning their gods.

The Amal'jaa don't appear to be tempered either, given they've got Hatchlings trying to join the Brotherhood of Ash, and it gets mentioned that even the Serpent Reavers started-off as a cult of humans that worshiped Leviathan of their own free will.

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Originally Posted by FJerome

The Amal'jaa don't appear to be tempered either

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The entire Brotherhood of Ash storyline says otherwise. Likely Tempering is done ritualisticly, like a coming of age thing

Yeah, early on in the amalj'aa beastmen quests they specifically state that pretty much the members of the Brotherhood of Ash are the sole remaining members of their race not tempered who still hold onto their traditional warrior ways, and regard Ifrit as a fraud undeserving of worship, apart from that one hiding in the cave in the Burning Wall who is connected to the BLM quest line.

As for the sylphs, the tempered ones turning purple might be connected not so much to the tempering process, but the environmental changes they're wreaking on the Sylphlands (the whole area is now coated in a spooky purple mist, and giant crystal like structures hang above spouting out fluorescent-violet smog that the untempered sylphs in Little Solace say is corrupting and destroying the forest. Little wonder the tempered sylphs have also turned this shade. Thus it's likely the change in colour is not a result of tempering, but simply the result of their warped actions on the Black Shroud in Ramuh's name.

Or at least, that's what it seems to me.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

The entire Brotherhood of Ash storyline says otherwise. Likely Tempering is done ritualisticly, like a coming of age thing

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Exactly this. Also, pay attention to the world mobs in the area.

tempered Gladiator, tempered orator, etc etc are all captives from Ala mihgo that were captured by the amal'jaa and tempered. There are FATEs tha the write up says the Amal'jaa are trying to capure people and you need to rescue them from the Amal'jaa. There's also the Storyline quest when you first meet Ifrit that has his followers blindly summoning Ifrit which is when we first learn what tempering is.

Not saying you're wrong, I obviously need to go back and re-watch my cut-scenes, but those mobs you note are all non-Amal'jaa?

The pattern seems to be that with most of the Beast Tribes their members themselves don't need tempering because their Primal offers them something worthwhile to them in exchange for worship. Ifrit and Garuda both offer their beast tribes the thing they prize most, with the Amal'jaa that's strength. The human species don't have the same set of needs so they've got to be forced into the worship when the Primal has nothing to offer them.

That's probably how Leviathan got his cult of humans, because he actually does have something to offer them - ask a sailor in a storm if they'd pray to a distant goddess or a god they can see and Leviathan probably wins out over Llymlaen more than Limsans care to admit.

(Otherwise basically we've been abandoning Amal'jaa teenagers to be tempered? Brotherhood, you monsters!)

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Originally Posted by FJerome

The pattern seems to be that with most of the Beast Tribes their members themselves don't need tempering because their Primal offers them something worthwhile to them in exchange for worship. Ifrit and Garuda both offer their beast tribes the thing they prize most, with the Amal'jaa that's strength. The human species don't have the same set of needs so they've got to be forced into the worship when the Primal has nothing to offer them.

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Only problem is the majority (3/5) of Primals have pretty much tempered all of their beastmen followers...

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Originally Posted by FJerome

Not saying you're wrong, I obviously need to go back and re-watch my cut-scenes, but those mobs you note are all non-Amal'jaa?

The pattern seems to be that with most of the Beast Tribes their members themselves don't need tempering because their Primal offers them something worthwhile to them in exchange for worship. Ifrit and Garuda both offer their beast tribes the thing they prize most, with the Amal'jaa that's strength. The human species don't have the same set of needs so they've got to be forced into the worship when the Primal has nothing to offer them.

That's probably how Leviathan got his cult of humans, because he actually does have something to offer them - ask a sailor in a storm if they'd pray to a distant goddess or a god they can see and Leviathan probably wins out over Llymlaen more than Limsans care to admit.

(Otherwise basically we've been abandoning Amal'jaa teenagers to be tempered? Brotherhood, you monsters!)

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Like we said, the amalj'aa npcs of the Brotherhood of Ash specifically state the 'normal' amalj'aa are tempered, and have abandoned their traditional warrior ways of life to become mindless zealots of Ifrit, whom the Brotherhood regards as nothing but a sham religion undeserving of devotion, especially given their tendency to dominate the weak, where as the Brotherhood finds strength in challenging equally worth adversaries - picking on the helpless is disgusting to them. I'll dig out my screenshots and post the excerpt of dialogue from the amalj'aa quests which states this.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Like we said, the amalj'aa npcs of the Brotherhood of Ash specifically state the 'normal' amalj'aa are tempered, and have abandoned their traditional warrior ways of life to become mindless zealots of Ifrit, whom the Brotherhood regards as nothing but a sham religion undeserving of devotion, especially given their tendency to dominate the weak, where as the Brotherhood finds strength in challenging equally worth adversaries - picking on the helpless is disgusting to them. I'll dig out my screenshots and post the excerpt of dialogue from the amalj'aa quests which states this.

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I have to admit that there've been a few things that confused me about the whole state of the Amalj'aa race, as well as the Brotherhood of Ash. For example, we know that the Brotherhood of Ash does not worship Ifrit and that they consider the Amalj'aa who do to be weak. But if this is the case, why then, is Zan'rak (not sure about the spelling) still holy land to them? One of the daily quests of the Brotherhood specifically deals with us killing Bronze Tortoises and Lacovie to protect the Holy Land of Zan'rak. However, Zan'rak is considered Holy Land by the Amalj'aa because they consider it scorched and cleansed by Ifrit. If the Brotherhood does not worship Ifrit, then why is Zan'rak holy ground even to them? There is little to no evidence that the Brotherhood has a different religion they adhere to, so I can't see them considering it to be holy ground because of some other deity.

If I had to make a guess, I would say Zan'rak is holy land to them because their ancestors lived there, and the Brotherhood has great respect for their ancestors, but that's all it is: a guess. Perhaps I've missed a few details somewhere, but if someone could shed some light on this, I would appreciate it.

There's also the matter of tempering. To be frank, I always found the matter of "are the beast tribes tempered yes or no" to be very confusing and not very clear. Even if the Brotherhood outright says the other Amalj'aa are tempered, I'm still left feeling not entirely convinced, mainly due to what we see in the storyline. We've seen what happens when a Primal tempers people: they become mindless and slavishly devoted to their primal. We saw this when Ifrit tempered our companions in the Bowl of Embers. But if we look to the cutscenes during the Brotherhood storyline, especially the latter ones, the Amalj'aa there showcase very un-tempered behaviour. They are capable of rational thought and acting, even letting the player and Loonh Gah go at one point, instead of dragging them to the Bowl of Embers to be tempered. This, to me, seems to argue against the Amalj'aa being tempered. There's also the matter FJerome brought up about the young Amalj'aa who we spray with water during the daily quests, who wished to join the Brotherhood. If they had been tempered, why would they wish to join a faction that outright rejects their god? That makes no sense, unless it is a form of deception, but that would seem unusually coherent and sly behaviour for a tempered person.

Perhaps there are different levels of tempering, or tempering of beastmen is different from that of the five races, but I can't recall anything in the story that hints at this. The question also raises itself as to why Ifrit would have to temper his Amalj'aa worshippers when they already worship him of their own free will?

It's been pretty clearly shown that there are different levels of tempering (compare Loonh Gah's mother vs. tempered Immortal Flames vs. Amal'jaa priests). Also, if nothing else, the enemy mobs called Tempered Sylphs should indicate to you that at least some beastmen are tempered.

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

It's been pretty clearly shown that there are different levels of tempering (compare Loonh Gah's mother vs. tempered Immortal Flames vs. Amal'jaa priests). Also, if nothing else, the enemy mobs called Tempered Sylphs should indicate to you that at least some beastmen are tempered.

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But even that raises questions. We know the Sylphs summoned Ramuh once during the 5 years from 1.x to ARR, and he tempered some Sylphs. Yet even when Ramuh was not present, the tempered Sylphs would still try and kidnap the ones from Little Solace to temper them. But how can they temper without their primal? I feel like I missed something.

Maybe they can cause tempering of individuals without a full manifestation. One at a time is easy, but a full manifestation is needs a lot of crystals... plus it sounds like while a full summoning takes a lot, if the primal is not defeated there is definitely still a presence left to the followers, and there are so many tempering groups for Ifrit, they MUST have another means or they manage a lot of summoning. Plus it is indicated that primals can be summoned WITHOUT being violent. Leviathan is the only one that seems to have a penchant for it upon being summoned, but then again there is no way to have a peaceful encounter with Leviathan on the surface, so we'd never see that.

Its for Power Ranger purposes.

Spoilers

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bxi4A7HCIAAcRLV.png:large

Personally, I have been curious as to why the Ehcatl Ixali have green feathers while the other, "tempered" Ixali are brown/dull. You would think that the Ixali affected by Garuda would share a similar color scheme, but it'd be kind of ridiculous for the dev team to decide "we want the tempered Ixal to be green now and the defualt ones from 1.0 can be the non-aggressive ones."

Unless there was a specific reason, we can speculate the feather color all we want, be it tempered vs. not, molting, etc.


I think we all sort of know deep down, that the color disparity is for simplicity sake of knowing "these beastmen aren't like the rest that I'm mowing down all over this zone."

Maybe they dye their feathers? The Garuda Ixali just don't care enough to. I mean the Ixal in the black mage questline also had colorful feathers. Maybe it's a cultural thing that was lost because of Tempering? When you're tempered, you come TOO devoted and lose sight of culture, that seems to be the Amaljaa complaint too. The Sylphs think their tempered counterparts became nasty after being tempered. Tempering doesn't make you less intelligent, it just makes you less worried about anything but your Primal. And the degree of tempering may be related to the degree of worship previously. No worship = full temper, some worship = strong temper, strong worship = weak temper.

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Originally Posted by LaurelinKementari

...That makes no sense, unless it is a form of deception, but that would seem unusually coherent and sly behaviour for a tempered person.
Perhaps there are different levels of tempering...

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Great points! In fact, there are some Ifrit-tempered Hyur in Little Ala Mhigo that you must identify and fight. They dress like Brass Blades, they act like ordinary citizens of Ul'dah, but yep, they are tempered by Ifrit and relaying information to the Amalj'aa on people's movements for the kidnappings and shenanigans. So, whilst they are tempered, they do have enough basic thoughts and control of their actions to "blend in" and "be disguised". Ultimately, though, these actions help strengthen Ifrit in the long run, by giving him more thralls.

I believe Ferne posted somewhere that there are indeed levels of tempering - you can be tempered several times, with each reducing what remains of you, or something to that degree. The example of Loonh Gah's mother has already been used, but that is a perfect example of what happens if you are tempered several times.

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Originally Posted by LaurelinKementari

I have to admit that there've been a few things that confused me about the whole state of the Amalj'aa race, as well as the Brotherhood of Ash. For example, we know that the Brotherhood of Ash does not worship Ifrit and that they consider the Amalj'aa who do to be weak. But if this is the case, why then, is Zan'rak (not sure about the spelling) still holy land to them? One of the daily quests of the Brotherhood specifically deals with us killing Bronze Tortoises and Lacovie to protect the Holy Land of Zan'rak. However, Zan'rak is considered Holy Land by the Amalj'aa because they consider it scorched and cleansed by Ifrit. If the Brotherhood does not worship Ifrit, then why is Zan'rak holy ground even to them? There is little to no evidence that the Brotherhood has a different religion they adhere to, so I can't see them considering it to be holy ground because of some other deity.

If I had to make a guess, I would say Zan'rak is holy land to them because their ancestors lived there, and the Brotherhood has great respect for their ancestors, but that's all it is: a guess. Perhaps I've missed a few details somewhere, but if someone could shed some light on this, I would appreciate it.

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The leader of the Brotherhood of Ash ("Hamujj Gah?") said that aged Amal'jaa would travel from their homes in... "Pagla'than?" to get to the holy land of Zan'rak. From there, they would essentially embark in a fight to the death against Ifrit. It would be a fight they did not have a hope of winning, but it would be the ultimate way to die with the Amal'jaa notion of honor. Now, instead of using this tradition like the Amal'jaa of olde, the Amal'jaa Zealots have instead opted to serve directly under Ifrit to become more powerful themselves. The Zealot ranks began to willingly succumb to Ifrit's temperings, and things escalated between the Brotherhood and Zealots to become the way they are today.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Novv's Sahagins are a different color, the Amaljaa of the Ring of Ash have blue bands instead of red, and uh... the 789th Kobolds have something different I'm sure.

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Novv's used to be black reddish when he's still the Scarlet Sea Devil in the past (just look at that mini SSD)

The serpent reavers are a great example of "intelligent" tempered humans. They enacted elaborate plans to slowly stockpile crystals for summoning leviathan. I'm sure tempered beastmen could act likewise.

Popping in to confirm that tempering does, in fact, have various levels. From http://gamerescape.com/2014/06/17/the-lore-train-e3-2014-interview-with-fernehalwes/]this interview with Ferne:

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GE: Can you give us some details on what happens to a person when they become tempered by a Primal? How much of their identity remains? Also, speaking of “tempered,” some people have taken to the idea that this term was only supposed to be attached to Ifrit, since tempering involves heat, and we see other terms attached to the process with other primals (Drowned / Touched). Care to shed any insight on what’s up with the different names?

MCKF: Back in 1.0, in that first Ifrit battle, that whole thing is that Ifrit has his blue flames that he spits out. That’s what tempers the people. There used to be NPCs that would go “No! I’d rather die than be tempered!” because it takes all of you away. It tempers you, removes part of your will to make you more acceptable to the teachings of Ifrit and the Amal’jaa. How much of the identity remains depends on how much tempering has been done. You don’t get a full tempering in one shot. One tempering will remove some of your will, but you’re still kind of conscious. If you remember back in 1.x you have people in the Serpent Reavers that were “drowned,” but they were still talking about their lives in the past, but now they’ve changed.

GE: So, it’s like a diet tempered.

MCKF: Yeah, there’s still a little bit of them left, but they’re convinced of the true power of Ifrit, Leviathan, etc. The more you get tempered, the more you lose. Currently, there is no known way to cure the tempering. Currently.

For Ifrit, the process is his blue flame. For Leviathan, they’ll dunk you in the holy water and you become Drowned. It’s the same process, but it’s a different kind. For Garuda you’re being touched by her gales of tempering, and so we’re calling it Touched. It’s that element washing over you and taking part of you away. You can assume there will be something similar with Ramuh and Shiva like Shocked or Frozen.

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I don't know how much insight all that gives when it comes to coloration, but at least it's relevant to part of the discussion.

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Originally Posted by Rennah

SNIP

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Just an...interesting...inaccuracy/inconsistency.

If Garuda's tempering is "Touching"...how do we explain everything we know about the Sylphs?

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Just an...interesting...inaccuracy/inconsistency.

If Garuda's tempering is "Touching"...how do we explain everything we know about the Sylphs?

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Just like to point out that traditionally, Sylphs were associated with Wind not Lightning

Also bear in mind that our use of the term comes from the first encounter of the associated brainwashing phenomena (Ifrit). for all we know, "touching" is actually the proper/default term fpr the Primal powers of indoctrination and only a few have elementaly related synomyns within the lore (Tempering = reheating metal - Fire. Grounded = stuck on the land - Earth. Drowned = death by submergence - Water)

I'm talking more about what the Sylphs call it; you'd think they'd have the correct term after all...

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Grounded = stuck on the land - Earth.

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