Learning Bard and Buffs in General

My Bard and Dragoon are working their way up to 50 (both 44 currently) and I've had a fun time playing as both.

However, there's two things I've noticed that I really didn't deal much with on the DoM classes.

1. Bard Songs. I tend to forget them (probably not new), but at the times I remember them I'm a little confused about the way to execute them. At the moment... I have Foe's, Ballad, and Paeon (if there's more I'll burn that bridge when I get there). I had a Stone Vigil run for my DR recently with Bard and I thought I'd try things out. Had a Scholar and Black Mage, so I opted for Foe's for most fights. At the final boss, I wasn't entirely sure about song choice here (considering the length), so I sort of turned Foe's off and on as the boss flew and landed to kind of conserve MP (and naturally forgot 2 or 3 times). So what ends up being the deciding factor as far as trash and bosses go for low-level dungeons (again, for high-level stuff I'll burn that bridge when I get there), and for what party compositions? And furthermore regarding the nature of songs themselves, is it possible to accidentally pull if they're up prior to engaging?

2. Continuing on Bard, 42 brought me Blunt Arrow. I... am familiar enough with Stuns that I think I understand timings and whatnot, but as far as using Blunt Arrow to Silence... how do I know what's silence-able? And if it is, will it interrupt cast (like Stun) or do I need to use it towards the end of the cast-time (considering it's 1 sec Silence)? Again, I played with this in the SV run, but really couldn't tell considering the tank was stunning.

3. Self-buffs. I'm not sure how the optimal cross-class set up goes for both jobs, and I really don't have MNK or either tank leveled a lot (18 across all 3) to get access to everything, but I have a rather large set of self-buffs for BRD. Can any of these be macro'd together or will the macro not execute well with even two? If the macro option fails, then how should I go about buffing without spending a noticeable amount of time idle?

Please have patience. I know I could've asked these questions before I got this far along, but at least I've asked them now.

I can only speak base on my own experience.

1 - Depending on the situation, you will use either one of the 3 songs. Ballad is when the WHM is running out of MP, play it when they are reaching somewhere halfway. SCH probably doesn't need it often than WHM since they can restore MP every minute (or during heated fights when they are low MP and aetherflow is out. Foe Requiem is used whenever there is a caster around in the party, this song doesn't lower your damage so it's good to play it -after- the boss or the mobs are pulled. You asked if possible to accidentally pulled with your song, Foe Requiem will as it applies the resistance debuff to all mob within range, whether or not they have aggro on the party or not. As for Paeon, the only time to use them is during DPS race with few other melee members and their TP is almost running out. If you and the other members manage your TP, you don't really have to use this at all and besides you can always restore your TP using Invigorate.

2 - For Blunt Arrow, this is one of the important skills for certain fights (Chimera and T1/T2 being the examples). You use it whenever you notice the target is casting/charging the silence-able skill. The sooner you silence them the better, least you have to deal with the skill still casted because latency issue/etc. Normally, skills that sounds like magic (Void Fire/Paralyze by voidsent enemies) and have slower cast than usual are the one you can silence. At times some enemies are immune to stun so it's up to you to stop them. You can check around guides to see which skills you can silence for important fights.

3 - I'm not too sure about dragoon (don't have one but I think most from MRD is good) but as for bard : Second Wind(PGL), Invigorate(LNC), Internal Release(PGL), Blood For Blood(LNC) and one last skill being either Featherfoot(PGL)/Keen Flurry(LNC) for defensive, Mantra(PGL) for supportive. As for macroing, any animation lock caused by the buff skill still applies so be sure to experiment with the wait time to ensure they all are applied properly with the least time.

Hope this helps.

General rule for songs: Paeon will be asked for or agreed upon going in. If neither of those happens, ignore it. WHM *can* do some amazing MP management, but sometimes they won't; I usually only play Ballad if I see a rez go off. Foe is useful any time any caster (including healers) will be using dps spells and when you won't accidentally pull something.

Kinnison basically nailed it on Blunt Arrow. Some fights it's practically mandatory. If you're the type to research fights before-hand, you'll know what's coming up, and if not his hints are pretty spot on. There are some weird exceptions out there, but between fight guides and those guidelines, you should be good.

Macroing buffs is generally frowned on. The usual practice is to weave them between your attacks by taking advantage of the fact that they're not on the GCD.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

General rule for songs: Paeon will be asked for or agreed upon going in. If neither of those happens, ignore it. WHM *can* do some amazing MP management, but sometimes they won't; I usually only play Ballad if I see a rez go off. Paeon is useful any time any caster (including healers) will be using dps spells and when you won't accidentally pull something.

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Army's Paeon does absolutely diddly squat for Disciples of Magic. Army's Paeon simply put is a Refresh Effect that affects TP instead of MP. As such it has no benefit to those classes who utilize MP. Mages Ballad on the other hand is the song you want to play if your casters are running low on MP. Basically, you only want to use Army's Paeon if you are asked to use it, or if you are out of TP and you are unable to use Invigorate at the current time. Mages Ballad should only be used when you are asked for it.

Foe Requiem on the other hand should generally be cast whenever you have a spellcaster in the party that is performing the function of a DPS Job. This includes Summoner, Black Mage, and to a lesser extent Scholar and White Mage. This is because Foe Requiem is used to add a debuff effect to the enemy that increases the amount of damage that magic based attacks do. Foe Requiem should however generally be saved for Boss Fights ONLY.

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Originally Posted by Tharian

Army's Paeon does absolutely diddly squat for Disciples of Magic.

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How the eff did I mistype that? >_>

Fixed

As for saving Foe for boss fights, though, it can be just as beneficial (if not more so) during large trash pulls.

I suppose it can. But sometimes you as a bard will run out of TP faster on large trash pulls than you will on a boss fight due to being practically required to spam your AoE attacks. This means that you will need to use both invigorate and Army's Paeon in some cases depending on the size of the large trash pulls. This is especially true in places like Castrum and Praetorium.

Eh, I'll take your word for it on CM and Prae, since I rarely do those, and never as BRD. I can say that the only speedrun where I've had to paeon even after invigorate is doing Bray Hard Mode with a DRG. Not that I have extensive experience with speedruns, though. . .

Thanks for the replies, folks. So to follow up on things:

1. Paeon only when it's asked for, I understand. But, back to the use of Foe's and Ballad for bosses. Would it be helpful at all to ask if the healer might need Ballad before the boss? The way I understand, if I'm using Foe's, that's MP being drained that I won't have to keep up Ballad when the healer needs it. I certainly want to feel helpful in every job I play, so I don't want to use one song then find out the healer needs Ballad and I myself don't have the MP for Ballad. For what it's worth, I've rarely been in speedrun groups (my bard, is, again not to 50 yet so no Castrum, Prae, or Brayflox HM), and never since I've had Bard.

2. I... think I understand now. So when I use Blunt Arrow to intercept spells, I use it like I would my stuns on other jobs?

3. I half expected that macros wouldn't be able to handle buffs well. So I trigger them in between my usual weapon skills?

1. It's extremely unlikely that ballad will be needed right off the bat. If you are worried about having MP, run Foe right at the beginning and then recoup your MP once it fades. You should have plenty before the healer ever needs ballad. Worst case, keep some Ethers around.

2. Yep

3. Yep

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Originally Posted by Tharian

I suppose it can. But sometimes you as a bard will run out of TP faster on large trash pulls than you will on a boss fight due to being practically required to spam your AoE attacks. This means that you will need to use both invigorate and Army's Paeon in some cases depending on the size of the large trash pulls. This is especially true in places like Castrum and Praetorium.

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Don't aoe trash unless it's 3 or more enemies and another dps is using aoe skills. Otherwise you're just wasting TP and aren't killing things any faster.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Don't aoe trash unless it's 3 or more enemies and another dps is using aoe skills. Otherwise you're just wasting TP and aren't killing things any faster.

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In Castrum Meridianum, Praetorium, and the two Crystal Towers odds are you will be dealing with 5 to 8 trash mobs at a time instead of just 3 or less. Each of these Trash Mobs will further have more Hit Points than a Standard Mob outside of a Dungeon. Thus using AoE's is generally your best bet for dealing with them, and if you aren't using AoE's, then you will probably be asked to as it is the most optimal path to defeating them.

Similarly in Speed Runs of Dungeons such as Brayflox (Hard) you will be expected to use AoE's so that your Tank isn't overwhelmed with trash mobs, and so that your Healer doesn't have to spam Cure III's and Medica II's too heavily.

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Originally Posted by Tharian

I suppose it can. But sometimes you as a bard will run out of TP faster on large trash pulls than you will on a boss fight due to being practically required to spam your AoE attacks. This means that you will need to use both invigorate and Army's Paeon in some cases depending on the size of the large trash pulls. This is especially true in places like Castrum and Praetorium.

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Hullbreaker and Stone Vigil HM are good examples of places where staggering For is beneficial, as the distance between pulls help you regen your me back. I'll typically rush us with swift and then Foe each pull. It's a minor increase, but an increase regardless.

In my experience you generally only need Mage's Ballad if the healer has to do multiple resurrections like in ST/CT or if they just received one. Even then, you don't need full MP to get them back up to a manageable level of MP. Use Foes at the beginning of most fights and for the most part you will have enough "emergency mp" refilled after it runs out for Ballad by the time something bad happens. Paeon is useless unless you are trying to aoe mobs without any DOM. Even then you use invigorate before you should even think about it.

Foe's will pull mobs if you don't click it off between trash.

Blunt arrow can stun a few spells like the one's mentioned before, but there aren't a ton that can be silenced. But...you should still be using it when it's up. Both Blunt and Repelling are off GCD and just add more damage to your output.

I'll give you some tips regarding Bardsongs.

Mage's Ballad: As a general guideline, use it when you notice a healer's MP is around 1500 or below, and turn it off when they get about 2500 or 3000. Healers that had just been raised need Mage's Ballad as well (and consider using Battle Voice in these situations). It does depend on the duty though - in periods of heavy healing you should consider using ballad at 2000 MP or even 2500; however don't use it if the mob or boss is about to croak.

Army's Paeon: Generally underused and has some unnecessary stigma attached to it in my opinion. I use it between mob pulls to get some extra TP for myself and my teammates if I am running low. During battle it is generally used exclusively in long battles where there are very few or no periods of downtime (such as second coil turn 3), but you should consult with your Disciple of War teammates on when is the best time to use Army's Paeon. It can also be used if there are any periods of downtime during lengthy battles, but remember to turn it off again when the battle resumes, and Mage's Ballad always takes precedence over Army's Paeon in these situations.

Foe Requiem: When joining duty finder I usually assume that my teammates are idiots unless they prove otherwise, so I'm one of those bards who don't use Foe Requiem that often just in case I need my MP for Mage's Ballad if the healers are giving heals or raises like sweets and don't know where their Shroud of Saints or Aetherflow buttons are. However the general rules of thumb for Foe Requiem are:
1: Use it when there is a dps check of some sort. This can be in the form of a target(s) needing to be destroyed within a certain time (such as Ifrit Nail phases or Titan Heart phase), or in times where the battle becomes progressively more dangerous the longer it takes (such as Caduceus in Binding Coil Turn 1).
2: Don't use Foe Requiem if there is a chance you need to use Mage's Ballad in the near future. That song takes precedence over everything and it's better to be safe then sorry.
3: Don't use Foe Requiem if there are casters in your party that are much more higher geared than the tank as they are in danger of pulling aggro from them, or at least let the tank gain a head start on aggro before you sing Foe Requiem.
4: Remember to turn Foe Requiem off during periods of downtime, even if it is only for a few seconds (turn it off, then immediately start casting it again).
5: Turn off Foe Requiem if you notice all the casters are dead (and be prepared to use Mage's Ballad when they are raised to help the healer's MP), and finally
6: Don't use Foe Requiem if there are no casters in the party. I facepalm whenever I see other bards do it. Yes, healers do get the benefit if they use their attacks, but they are there to heal, not dps, and if any healer moans tell them to "do your job and let me do mine".

One last piece of advice: If somebody asks you to sing a particular song it doesn't mean you have to sing it. At the end of the day you are in full control of what you are doing and quite often the best person to know when it is the right time to sing is yourself.

Okay, so I'm curious about how much an i108 brd with rosenbogen should do on a dummy, I'm doing 360-370 and it feels low ._.
This is about 4 min, and I haven't used x-pots because I'm cheap, I've used mega/hi nq though...

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Originally Posted by Jeppo

6: Don't use Foe Requiem if there are no casters in the party. I facepalm whenever I see other bards do it. Yes, healers do get the benefit if they use their attacks, but they are there to heal, not dps, and if any healer moans tell them to "do your job and let me do mine".

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If you aren't playing any other songs and the Healers are throwing out DOTs, why wouldn't you play Foes? A DPS increase is still a DPS increase no matter how small it is or where it's coming from...If you are actually saving it for emergencies, I get that, but you don't lose anything from playing it if you aren't saving it for anything.

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Originally Posted by Elkya95

Okay, so I'm curious about how much an i108 brd with rosenbogen should do on a dummy, I'm doing 360-370 and it feels low ._.
This is about 4 min, and I haven't used x-pots because I'm cheap, I've used mega/hi nq though...

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Well, while I don't parse my own damage (since it's against the game's terms of use), from what I have read about both in these forums and elsewhere, a rating of 360-370 without using expensive potions or food is pretty good in 4 minutes. The main problem with the Rosenbogen is the astonishingly high skill speed associated with it, so you'll find your damage output trail off considerably in longer battles (particularly Second Coil Turn 3 if you reached that far, and since your avatar sports a High Allagan Mask of Aiming I'm guessing you have).

If upgrading your relic weapon to at least Novus is out of the question, you might want to tailor your other gear to reduce your skill speed as much as possible. I don't know what your gear setup is at the moment but since Auroral equipment has a lot of Skill speed as well, you might want to consider going into Syrcus Tower and acquiring a pair of Amon's Boots and Amon's Breeches (and possibly Amon's Sleeves if you can afford the loss of accuracy)

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Originally Posted by Maduro

If you aren't playing any other songs and the Healers are throwing out DOTs, why wouldn't you play Foes? A DPS increase is still a DPS increase no matter how small it is or where it's coming from...If you are actually saving it for emergencies, I get that, but you don't lose anything from playing it if you aren't saving it for anything.

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Well, if I'm in a speed run party then fair enough; Foe Requiem all the way. However I'm talking about standard Duty Finder runs. I've lost count on the number of times a tank has died while the healers are attacking. I don't want to encourage them by throwing a Foe Requiem up as well.

If things have went so far south that a healer is out of mp in the time it takes for requiem to wear and build a buffer of mp for ballad. It's very, VERY likely ballad wasn't going to save things anyhow.

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Originally Posted by StubHub

If things have went so far south that a healer is out of mp in the time it takes for requiem to wear and build a buffer of mp for ballad. It's very, VERY likely ballad wasn't going to save things anyhow.

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That is a very good point, and in most situations I would agree with you.

However in 8 man parties if one of the healers inexplicably gets KO'd early on in the fight, which this can happen to even the best of healers. When they get revived, they will have very little MP. A Mage's Ballad in those situations could very well save the day.

But oh dear, you only just used up your MP using Foe Requiem, and your MP hasn't recovered yet! You only get to use Ballad for 10 seconds, which is not enough. The revived healer is now completely out of MP, their Aetherflow/Shroud of Saints are still on cooldown and the other healer is struggling to keep up! The tanks die, then the rest of us fall soon after.

You can argue that the Bard can pop an X-Ether so you can sing Ballad for a little longer, and if you are raiding with your static group, this is exactly what I would do. but I'm a little stingy when I'm in a Duty Finder group (X-Ethers are expensive, and if healers aren't going to use one from their stock, why should I?). I've no idea what skill level my comrades are when entering DF. I can make some pre-battle assumptions based on the gear they have equipped, but that's about it, and these days you can't even rely on that. And why I'll argue until I'm blue in the face that Foe Requiem is a great skill for bards, it shouldn't be used willy-nilly and the mark of a good bard is knowing exactly when to use it, if they should use it at all.

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Originally Posted by Elkya95

Okay, so I'm curious about how much an i108 brd with rosenbogen should do on a dummy, I'm doing 360-370 and it feels low ._.
This is about 4 min, and I haven't used x-pots because I'm cheap, I've used mega/hi nq though...

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390 should be do-able.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

390 should be do-able.

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I made a video to show the bards in the fc and get help, and I seem to be bad at remembering the bloodletter procs at times(just sitting there for 1-2 gcd's) and my second invig was late at least in that vid. I did 359 dps, no pots/food, and i107, not i108.

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Originally Posted by Elkya95

I made a video to show the bards in the fc and get help, and I seem to be bad at remembering the bloodletter procs at times(just sitting there for 1-2 gcd's) and my second invig was late at least in that vid. I did 359 dps, no pots/food, and i107, not i108.

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Yeah 390 is without food and pot, with IL110 weapon (Rosenbogen or Novus doesn't matter, both proven to be able to do so). Without food and port you should able to hover at around 400 at around 3:20 after the 20s buff from hawk's eye, and from 3:20-4:00 your TP should start to run dry and with no IR/BfB available, it should drop to about 39X

The timing of refreshing DoTs with buff and firing off BL proc does take time to practice and master.

http://i.imgur.com/4kOhXig.png

The first time the bard early pulled with Foes Requiem, I said "Hey watch the FOEs." and went with it (he locked out four people). Then it happened again on the last boss and he tried to push it on a summoner...

I'm not one to antagonize people, but please get into the habit of playing swift song after an encounter bards, because that way you will never unintentionally pull additional monsters or lock people out of a boss. This was in Syrcus Tower for anyone wondering.

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Originally Posted by Zeny

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Yup, Foe Requiem will absolutely pull aggro on any unengaged mob you get near. Its basically a debuff pulsing out from you, and it will put you on a mob's hate list.

Using Swiftsong after each fight is good advice, thats what I usually do. This way you know any songs you were playing are cancelled and your MP can regen, while you run to the next fight a bit quicker. Honestly I see a lot of Bards that aren't proactive enough with this and other songs (when I'm playing another class).

I just wish they would make Swiftsong instant cast, since having to stop moving to cast it is a little contrary to its function of movement speed. Thats obviously a minor complaint, but maybe people would use it more.

It's sickening how few bards play foe in st or ct. Foe helps every single caster in the alliance not just your own party. The dps increase is enormous

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

It's sickening how few bards play foe in st or ct. Foe helps every single caster in the alliance not just your own party. The dps increase is enormous

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Absolutely, I'm glad at least one of the 7 bards was playing it, lol.

It's been awhile since I last posted here. Do we have a definitive starting rotation of buffs at the start of a fight yet? What I've been doing so far has been doing its job, and I can achieve 400 overtime, but I'd like to know what you guys do :). Thanks in advance!

I think everyone has forgotten to point out how easy it is to cast a song, only to forget about it do to all the craziness going on during battle.

Also no mention of Battle Voice. It double's the effectiveness of all songs except swiftsong for 30 seconds. When casting Ballad to restore a healers's low MP I may cast Battle Voice to speed up MP recovery and when it wears, to remind me to cancel Ballad.

Battle Voice also likely works w/ Foe Requiem, though Foe Requim does not have any impact on your own DPS. In fact the only job it seems to have a substantial influence on is BLM and probably SMN pet's abilities.

Army's Peon goes unused because you aren't able to see other players TP. And no one's going to spend the time to type out "Out of TP! Army's Peon plz!!!"

Foe has just as much influence on SMN dps as BLM dps. It increases Magic damage, not elemental.