A possible solution to endgame lockouts

What if there was a system that allowed you to participate in content as much as you wanted with whoever you wanted, but prevented people from obtaining loot and selling runs?

How about infecting players with Allagan Pox?

Allagan Pox / Status effect
A plague that has not been successfully cured and can become contagious when surrounded by crowds of infected.

Okay....so the description would need a lot of work, but what does it do? Having Pox will prevent you from being able to lot on loot within a particular turn and is obtained after leaving the zone (whether you obtain the loot or not).

Pox would also be bestowed upon players should they enter an instance with at least 6 other players who possess it. Why? To prevent parties from "selling" runs for gil. There could also be a message in the confirmation window upon speaking with the npc to verify how many players possess the Pox while not specifying who has it to prevent harassment.

This will give parties a chance to redo the content as they see fir while keeping the income of loot under control by preventing players from monopolizing the instances for gil and loot.

So, what'cha think?

So in other words if I actually wanted to farm a turn for loot with a static (which I don't but that doesn't matter) I can't because a few people are 'abusing' the system? No.

And no one is 'monopolizing' anything. If you want to beat something, find some people to do it and keep trying til you get it. Endgame is about teamwork. Can't expect to win with a PUG. And if your too lazy to learn and want to buy your win? Go ahead.

The people selling the wins are just taking advantage of the people to lazy to bother try playing the game. Not hurting anyone.

Do I think it's right to sell runs? No. But who cares, honestly.

I think this idea is ingenious, using a contagion as a game mechanic like this would have never occurred to me. Granted, I'm on the fence about whether or not selling runs is something that needs to be hindered or not, but if the dev team decided they wanted to discourage it this would be an excellent way to accomplish it.

So in order to sell just need to have 8 ppl each with a coil ready alt, run once everyone gets a chance at gear, then run again with 1 buyer and 1 non locked alt. Repeat process 7 more times. Now you have just unleashed 9 coil runs worth of gear from a group that should have been able to get 2 sets. This is an absurd increase.

Also if you don't want to talk about it in terms of sells the speed of progression would drastically increase because every time the main group finished a turn they could then take 1 fresh fc member to teach them and 1 alt from the main group, that main group member then takes all the loot and now every week everyone in the main static gets 2 pieces of gear and a chance for gear on the main clear and teaches another whole static how to do it. Basically what took people a month to clear at first eg 6-9 will now take a week or 2.

Wouldn't this affect regular groups that aren't looking to sell content? I mean really.. I clear t6, don't get any loot, then go back to help the FC, now they can't get loot either? Doesn't make a lot of sense but maybe I'm not understanding what you mean exactly.

Every sell group I've run the loot goes to the buyer. Most people selling the groups don't need the loot anyways.

Don't look surprised when a big group of people will have full clears within two weeks. I don't think this is what we want. New content needs that 2 month-ish epic feel. This of course is my opinion and by no means an MMO rule. I do think it's a valid one.

I'd be guilty too. Fortunate to have a static, so why not go for it and then go with an alt, or maybe two alts?

SE needs more raid content and more pug friendly raid content. They do not have to try to invent the wheel. Right now both "casuals" and "hardcores" get punished because the difficulty is somewhere in between: too hard for pugs, too easy for statics.

I wouldn't say it's easy for statics.. It's easy for people who are adept at reacting to and memorizing the timing for mechanics, I've seen people pug t9 clears, and statics struggle for months on t6.. It's all about the players, not the "statics".

That being said.. The best idea I've heard (I believe it came from WoW, but I've never played it so not sure) is the token system. Just give us a token so we can get the loot we need/want, and lock that out only. We should be able to help our friends and fc mates (or make sales) freely :( a token system would pretty much eliminate the need for content lock-out.

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Originally Posted by StateAlchemist

So in other words if I actually wanted to farm a turn for loot with a static (which I don't but that doesn't matter) I can't because a few people are 'abusing' the system? No.

And no one is 'monopolizing' anything. If you want to beat something, find some people to do it and keep trying til you get it. Endgame is about teamwork. Can't expect to win with a PUG. And if your too lazy to learn and want to buy your win? Go ahead.

The people selling the wins are just taking advantage of the people to lazy to bother try playing the game. Not hurting anyone.

Do I think it's right to sell runs? No. But who cares, honestly.

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Pretty much this.
It's an idea that pretty much screws over the last 2 people in a group of friends from getting their loot.

People need to stop thinking how to stop minority run sellers and start thinking of ways a loot system that benefits the majority of the community could work.

They should just have a lockout system from wow and modify it a little bit.
When you raid, upon killing a boss you get tied to that instances ID.

E.g. say you raid and kill turn 1 boss,
Instance ID: 51081234

Your group proceeds to clear turn 1 - 3. leaving 4 and 5 up. That instance ID, being the first one to get tied to that week becomes your primary loot instance.

Now, say that group doesn't run again until saturday but you want to help some friends do 1 and 2 on Thursday, you can.

However, you will be unable to loot on Turns 1 2 and 3 because you already cleared those for the week. However, if you and your friends clear turn 1 2 and 3, you can loot on turn 4 because you haven't done it yet. So let's say you clear Turn 4 with your friends and on Saturday run with your static. Because you have cleared more bosses on the new instance ID than your primary, it becomes your new Primary Loot Instance ID. When you run with your static you will still be able to do turn 4 but won't be able to loot. Then when you get to turn 5 it becomes your primary loot instance again and you can loot on turn 5.

The reason SE doesn't do this is because they don't want you to master all the content in under a month, however, people do this anyway the way it is now. Right now I can subscribe for one month, clear the new content, then unsubscribe for 4 months till more comes out... Which is what they wanted to avoid in the first place, but does nothing.

If SE fixed the lockouts, it would keep people playing more and longer because they would level other classes and run on all their classes for the experience. E.g. I could tank 1 with a static, then run another as a BLM and learn to dps them... etc.

Social lock is lame, I appreciate at least trying to find ways around it. Not saying anyone here is doing it but I find it funny to see people defend the alt loot funneling method and then get huffy that other players may be given the opportunity to join in near similar mechanics (minus the part of leveling an alt, which is silly since this game was designed with systems that made making one character great). Tokens or other like systems can be good because they allow you to give players fraction of items, could get around any sort of new funneling strategy if unlocking the social part.

I like the premise, but I think it might be more appropriate to be stricter about the loot lock out. For example, you only get the full amount of loot if all 8 players have not cleared the content that week. You get half if between 1 and 3 players have cleared, and you are ineligible for loot if half or more of the team has already cleared. People who have cleared that week aren't able to cast lots on whatever loot may drop.

This way you could help people get a clear and perhaps a limited amount of loot, but run selling shouldn't ramp up much. More people being able to run with friends who already have statics might actually decrease demand for run selling and this system wouldn't be any more friendly to the sellers than what we have currently (except to sell clears only without loot).

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Originally Posted by Nutz

I like the premise, but I think it might be more appropriate to be stricter about the loot lock out. For example, you only get the full amount of loot if all 8 players have not cleared the content that week. You get half if between 1 and 3 players have cleared, and you are ineligible for loot if half or more of the team has already cleared. People who have cleared that week aren't able to cast lots on whatever loot may drop.

This way you could help people get a clear and perhaps a limited amount of loot, but run selling shouldn't ramp up much. More people being able to run with friends who already have statics might actually decrease demand for run selling and this system wouldn't be any more friendly to the sellers than what we have currently (except to sell clears only without loot).

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The problem is that people think the issue SE has is the actual SELLING of runs. It's not. It's with people getting geared from content by leaning on those who are more skilled than them, without being as skilled themselves. Whether it's done via selling or not. Many people don't have an issue carrying friends and such who aren't quite as good as them, but SE doesn't want that while the content is current.

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Originally Posted by Nutz

I like the premise, but I think it might be more appropriate to be stricter about the loot lock out. For example, you only get the full amount of loot if all 8 players have not cleared the content that week. You get half if between 1 and 3 players have cleared, and you are ineligible for loot if half or more of the team has already cleared. People who have cleared that week aren't able to cast lots on whatever loot may drop.

This way you could help people get a clear and perhaps a limited amount of loot, but run selling shouldn't ramp up much. More people being able to run with friends who already have statics might actually decrease demand for run selling and this system wouldn't be any more friendly to the sellers than what we have currently (except to sell clears only without loot).

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That could also work, or add in something that detects whether or not everyone's in the same free company and prevent the pox from spreading in that particular case.

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Originally Posted by Antanias

What if there was a system that allowed you to participate in content as much as you wanted with whoever you wanted, but prevented people from obtaining loot and selling runs?

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Make all high end gear crafted, and NOT loots freebies.

This will balance the economy, as well as making crafting a necessity instead of just a 2nd hand citizens with useless items to sell.

Let supply and demand be the true balance of this game, not how many runs you can repeat in a dungeon.

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Originally Posted by ispano

The problem is that people think the issue SE has is the actual SELLING of runs. It's not. It's with people getting geared from content by leaning on those who are more skilled than them, without being as skilled themselves. Whether it's done via selling or not. Many people don't have an issue carrying friends and such who aren't quite as good as them, but SE doesn't want that while the content is current.

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This.
Combined with the fact that it is tricky to figure out a fair way to determine what is the fair amount of loot to drop when you have people already cleared on the week of helping you out.
It'd be easier if SE just implement a practice mode where the difficulty stays the same but no loot is given. This not only allows people to take their friends in for practice. It will also allow players who have beaten the content on the week of to go in polish up their rotation. A few of my static members run EX primals or ST constantly throughout the week trying to sharpen up their rotation, but it's just not the same with the difficulty/challenge provided by these content in comparison to Coil.

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Originally Posted by KyrsIsley

This.
Combined with the fact that it is tricky to figure out a fair way to determine what is the fair amount of loot to drop when you have people already cleared on the week of helping you out.
It'd be easier if SE just implement a practice mode where the difficulty stays the same but no loot is given. This not only allows people to take their friends in for practice. It will also allow players who have beaten the content on the week of to go in polish up their rotation. A few of my static members run EX primals or ST constantly throughout the week trying to sharpen up their rotation, but it's just not the same with the difficulty/challenge provided by these content in comparison to Coil.

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I would definitely be in favor of a practice mode. +1

I think I could go for a no-loot/story-only mode since my biggest beef about the lockout is the FC members with spotty playtimes or occasional work/family interruptions don't get the practice they need.

Token thing seems cool though and could potentially prevent you from being RNG-screwed. Say, you get a token for clearing a turn, 2-3 tokens for a piece of gear, no more tokens for repeat attempts. You could still sell clears but it's less harmful as everyone progresses at the same rate instead of one person getting a ton of items and a huge power jump.

Or people need to deal they dont need every single piece of raid gear out there and actually take a breather, gear is a tool, its not what you need, and theres nothing wrong with being behind those who are well in the front, the issue stems from personal issues from this playerbase, not the loot system, people just cant deal with others better then themselves and being behind.

I like the idea of the Pox... would be something like the common cold I guess(harmless in general but just annoying to deal with). But I'd put it this way once you clear a turn you con't get any loot from that turn. Simple as that. I don't care for sellers etc... they are a minority - I don't care for them and those that buy(but I can at times understand some needing to buy - simply finding 7 others to play with due to various reasons - seen people in PF go I will pay X amount of gil to each person that helps me clear it).

But just having the loot lockout that once you are done with that turn you can't loot on it would be sufficient. Call it Allagan Pox if you want it doesn't matter to me hehe.

There is only so much you can do during a week in general. And if this would help these groups help out with the new players joining in it would be nice. I would add one limitation. At the start of the coil let it be as it is now. At first patch(so X.Y5) reduce that lockout to this.

Please realise the purpose of lockout is not let you win it again (win it for others) in the week. ^^;

I dint think removing lockout would benefit the community as a whole. I suspect if you were to look at raw numbers, a very small percentage of people on each server would have actually completed (possibly even attempted) second coil. The lockout prevents people who don't have statics from falling miles behind in rapidly advancing item levels and tries to prevent an "us and them" situation. Making a very sweeping and likely flawed generalisation, I don't see the people who have second coil on farm really wanting to run it lots of times with new players for fun if they've already geared up, which they will have done within a couple of weeks if it's taken off lockout.

Edit: oops, thought I was in a different thread with the initial response. I'd still raise the question though of whether it would actually help to increase the population running the content for the first time and whether or not those with the debut would bother to run it if they were getting no reward other than a few soldiery tomes.

I don't see why they don't just have every turn fully unlocked, but only allow you the ability to roll on your first run. Win or lose, you can only roll on loot during your first weekly kill.

Who cares if people sell runs to other people that way? All that does is help not-so-good players get their kills in. Why does it matter if people get boss kills? They can still only roll on gear once per week. If they get a few pieces of high allagan, who cares? Everyone is running around in full i110 thanks to hunts anyway.

Raid are having huge accessibility problems right now. I think a system like this would help widen the amount of usable raiders in the game. This helps everyone. Forming a static of like-skilled players with similar progression would be easier than ever.

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Originally Posted by Kydi

I dint think removing lockout would benefit the community as a whole. I suspect if you were to look at raw numbers, a very small percentage of people on each server would have actually completed (possibly even attempted) second coil. The lockout prevents people who don't have statics from falling miles behind in rapidly advancing item levels and tries to prevent an "us and them" situation. Making a very sweeping and likely flawed generalisation, I don't see the people who have second coil on farm really wanting to run it lots of times with new players for fun if they've already geared up, which they will have done within a couple of weeks if it's taken off lockout.

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The OP wasn't talking about outright unlocking coil. He was talking about removing the entry restriction, while keeping the loot restrictions in play. This would allow you to run with friends, or help FC members, even after you already finished your weekly clears.

Why do people not like it when others buy runs?
To me its like hiring mercenaries (i dont think i know how to spell that word)
I mean it doesnt affect other people if one person buys a run does it?

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Originally Posted by Kiara1

Why do people not like it when others buy runs?
To me its like hiring mercenaries (i dont think i know how to spell that word)
I mean it doesnt affect other people if one person buys a run does it?

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You spelled it right, and I agree with you completely

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Originally Posted by Kydi

I dint think removing lockout would benefit the community as a whole. I suspect if you were to look at raw numbers, a very small percentage of people on each server would have actually completed (possibly even attempted) second coil. The lockout prevents people who don't have statics from falling miles behind in rapidly advancing item levels and tries to prevent an "us and them" situation. Making a very sweeping and likely flawed generalisation, I don't see the people who have second coil on farm really wanting to run it lots of times with new players for fun if they've already geared up, which they will have done within a couple of weeks if it's taken off lockout.


Edit: oops, thought I was in a different thread with the initial response. I'd still raise the question though of whether it would actually help to increase the population running the content for the first time and whether or not those with the debut would bother to run it if they were getting no reward other than a few soldiery tomes.

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Because no one has friends, right?
People who run coil help out their friends, because that's what friends do, and then those friends potentially help their friends, and so on.

I keep suggesting this, but the solution is simple -- use the same system as the duty roulette daily bonus except apply to a weekly loot bonus.

Each day the first time you complete a roulette you get a daily bonus. You can keep doing the roulette for the rest of the day but only get the daily bonus once.

Apply this to coil.

Each week the first time you successfully complete a turn, you get a weekly bonus -- a chance at loot. Whether you win or lose the loot, doesn't matter, that is your weekly bonus used. After that, you can keep entering the turn for the rest of week but you only get the weekly bonus (the chance to roll on loot) once.

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Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

Because no one has friends, right?
People who run coil help out their friends, because that's what friends do, and then those friends potentially help their friends, and so on.

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I'm not arguing that as a possibility at all, but look at what's happened with CT. That content is still useful for new 50's and has no lockout, but try and get someone at a reasonable ilvl to run it and you'll be met with (likely) a resounding no. Similar with ST. Still relevant to most, but who runs it once they've got their weekly drop?

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Originally Posted by Kiara1

Why do people not like it when others buy runs?
To me its like hiring mercenaries (i dont think i know how to spell that word)
I mean it doesnt affect other people if one person buys a run does it?

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It totally does though sometimes. If someone buys a T5 run and then thinks they can join my PF for a static replacement for the week then it's totally affecting me negatively because I have to boot their butt for doing less DPS than a tank. (That's just really my ONLY problem with run sellers.)

All great ideas...now please do some research and find out what happens when you don't have loot lockouts. If you can CRITICALLY ARGUE IT(have facts from cons and pros, explain them then come to a conclusion) then this would be a great discussion, and I'm sure would warren the attention of your peers, and arguably more importantly the Developers.

But in lieu of this thread. I am for lockouts.

-Tari

I'd like a practice mode. We are training in T9, but... this week we cleared t6-8 from 21:30 to 22:45 on thuesday. We play 2 days at week from 21 to 24 the tonight we will train T9. Last week, we cleared T8 on Sunday... then no t9 training. Let we join turn in any order please, so we can train later turns even if we haven't cleared previous. Obviously leave the one week clear lookout for every turn, for me it's fair.

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Originally Posted by Heskett

blip

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Sure that might be a problem but I dont think that happens very often, does it?
I dont know anyone who has ever bought a run for a raid or trial so I dont think a lot of people are doing it. But I dont think its a problem if anyone would.
Actually I would pay anyone to help me clear moggle ex and get me the cute ribbons. Its not very df friendly, especially when you get 5 new players who only speak french every time and the bard keeps killing the blm.
I know the fight well as a healer so I wouldnt feel that I got carried. More like, I paid mercenaries to help me out in a battle I cant win alone.

Just my opinion about it.