now I ask you that you read this with an open mind as it's an idea I had for my MMO a long time ago, I'm giving you this idea because I love you yoshi-p and I have high hopes for FFXIV. Also I hate the Inflation and I hate RMTs.
My idea was simple take every tradable/sellable item in the game and give it an ultimate minimum/maximum asking price. for example.
We'll use a level 5 wooden shield (I forget the name)
currently on my server a Level 5 shield goes for 20,000 to 50,000gil
my Idea will set a minimum price of 1,000 gil that the shield is allowed to be sold at and a maximum allowing price of say 2,500 gil.
The dev team already has an NPC asking price. When you sell the shield to an NPC I do believe the NPC would buy it off of you for about 1,000 or 1,500 gil
so based on the rank requirements for gear and "possible" items crafted with crafting materials we can determine a price tier to not only lower prices of items in the market and force RMT's to sell items in that price tier but this still allows the market to be competitive as for as prices are concerned.
The benefits would be easier access to crafting materials
which in turn allows the market to always have the gear you need at reasonable prices
now I'm not saying make everything in the game cheap, but the dev team is responsible for maintaining a fair and balanced economy free of the RMT choke hold.
We can't beat them at the tug of war prices they set everything at because their job is to farm items they don't play the game like us. They are online 24/7 farming items and destroying the economy with their ridiculous prices I found rank 15 through 20 gear in the market between 70,000 to 100,000+
every MMO's free, unmonitored, decided by the player market gets exploited by RMTs.
Why? Because they have the time to gather more items then the normal player and because they have that quantity they ultimately have the power over pricing.
I really don't want to farm like I did in FFXI, I would farm and gather for days just to buy a single piece of gear for my PLD at level 45 - 50.
feed back is appreciated. I understand that some of my ideas aren't always good so I would like to know what people think.
Idea to put an end to inflation and stop RMTs
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07-30-2011, 06:03 PMLiniontIdea to put an end to inflation and stop RMTs
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07-30-2011, 06:38 PMMattyWS
Capping the highs and lows is not the answer, that is something the playerbase needs to figure out, what an item is worth. RMT may try to sell for high prices but Ultimately, the real players of this game have the choice to lower the price if they want to when selling items.
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07-30-2011, 10:45 PMJabo
It is also A LOT of work to adjust the prices. You have also +1, +2, +3 gear and so on.
The problem isn't the inflation. The problem is that low rank gear is/was useless, but the recipes were complicated.
High rank gear is very cheap now, compared to the earlier days. -
07-31-2011, 08:14 AMtymoraToo much work for the dev team + price regulation will cause the general community to revolt.Quote:
My idea was simple take every tradable/sellable item in the game and give it an ultimate minimum/maximum asking price. for example.
Besides the ones selling the expensive gear are more likely to be regular players than RMT.
I believe most RMT are focusing on selling fish and shards nowadays so you are targeting the wrong group. -
07-31-2011, 11:38 PMSouljacker
Worrying too much about RMT is what got us a game with no mailing system and the Market Wards in the first place. I'd argue it's time to worry more about the players and less about the RMT.
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08-01-2011, 12:38 AMRoaran
I'll try to do this as respectfully as possible, and I'll start by saying this: Free markets and Competition are the best solutions for any economy.
Thus any arbitrary regulation or monopolies will hurt the economy.
I think this outlines the mistake you have made. Fair and balanced are very poor terms to use and they have different meanings for different people. They should be fair in the sense that, everyone should be free to participate in the economy in whatever way they choose.Quote:
dev team is responsible for maintaining a fair and balanced economy free of the RMT choke hold.
Then, whether or not RMTs really have a choke hold on anything. So far, I see no evidence to back this up. Because the markets are very free, everyone being able to choose their methods, and that the RMT hold no monopoly over any thing, they are simply adding to the competition.
Example: They leave bots around attack monsters for hours and they use multiple character accounts to farm monsters. No other single person can do this. This gives them an advantage but not a monopoly. Essentially they just operate more effeciently than other players. Does this negatively impact the economy? Yes and No. Yes, it hurts a single sector of the economy, those who farm shards. The added supply of shards naturally drives their prices down. This means players who sell shards will recieve less gil from shards. But, shards being an integral part in the synthesis process, these lower prices, in turn, lower the capital necessary to level crafts and to craft the items themselves. Thus, while these players will recieve less gil per shard, they in turn are paying less gil for all the items they want. You can see that by removing the RMT, shards will decrease in supply and item prices will naturally rise.
So far in that RMT does not hold a monopoly and there is vigorous competition, I see no reason to apply far reaching economic regulation on an otherwise free market. And, for supposition's sake, if they should hold a monopoly, rather than regulate prices, it would be far better to deal with the monopoly itself.
I could write another lengthy post on the effects of the actual suggestion, suffice to say, they are not worth whatever non existent benefits would be believed to manifest. -
08-10-2011, 10:08 AMSerio
Um... Why not just make things and sell them at reasonable prices? I did that for like 2 months with all of the rank 12 crafting/gathering tools. I noticed there were either none up, or they cost like 80k. So I made and sold them for 10-40k depending on the overhead cost. I made over 6 mil like that and I'm sure all the lowbies were more than happy to buy affordable goods.
You don't need a regulated floor and ceiling. You just need a few people who aren't greedy as f*ck that are willing to make and sell things at reasonable prices (Like ME :D). -
08-12-2011, 11:29 AMChainLOL!Quote:
Originally Posted by MattyWS
You most def didn't play XI when scorpion claws were 30mil did you? When RMT get a hold on the economy its all out of the players hands. -
08-12-2011, 03:10 PMLiniontThank you chain I couldn't have said it myself ^_^Quote:
Originally Posted by Chain
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08-12-2011, 07:55 PMstyx971i can't agree more i mean i had the game at launch but we all know how that was.. came back i figure ok delete old character n start fresh.. made new character been playing and all the low level stuff has an insane price i mean how the heck they expect someone new with no money to buy armor and weapons at about 50-80k each piece is beyond me by the time you get enough money you wont need it anymoreQuote:
Originally Posted by Serio
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08-13-2011, 08:40 AMVydarrTyrAnd you definitely didn't take economics in school. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Chain
First, do you really want one person at SE to decide how much every item in the game is worth? Do you really think that one person is going to do a better job of balancing the entire economy than the players?
I mean, every time a new item is added to the game -- whether it's a new material, or a new item that can be crafted, or a new weapon/tool/gear -- then every price in the entire game would have to be changed. If a new rank 30 armor comes out, then the price of every other piece of r30-ish armor would go down, and the price of all the mats necessary to make those armors would go down. Mobs are constantly being changed and relocated. So if more mobs of a certain type are added or moved closer to a camp, the value of their drops needs to go down because more of them are available.
Do you think one person at SE is capable of constantly balancing those things? Considering all the other changes that need to be made to the game, I think they've got better things to do with their time than constantly monitor and balance the entire economy on every server.
One person cannot balance all of those prices better than every person playing the game. If you have one person doing it, there are going to be imbalances and loopholes all over the place. (And yes, there are imbalances in the NPC economy right now so that people can buy things from an NPC for cheap, easily convert it to something else, and sell it back to NPCs for a ridiculous profit.)
Second, how did RMTs force players to sell their scorpion claws for 30 mill? Buy up lower priced ones and sell them for 30 mill? I really, really hope that someone starts doing that on my server. I would be farming scorpion claws like crazy and selling them to RMTs for 29 mill each. The people getting rich from that type of hair-brained scheme wouldn't be RMTs.
Third, do scorpion claws still cost 30 mill? No? That's because a free market economy corrects its own imbalances. You don't need price controls.
Fourth, if you want to see the problem of having one person set all prices, just look at the OP's suggestion:
So I can sell my shield in the Market Wards -- which may take days or weeks or months -- for 900 gil (1K minus 10% tax); or I can sell my shield to an NPC and instantly get 1500 gil.Quote:
currently on my server a Level 5 shield goes for 20,000 to 50,000gil
my Idea will set a minimum price of 1,000 gil that the shield is allowed to be sold at and a maximum allowing price of say 2,500 gil.
The dev team already has an NPC asking price. When you sell the shield to an NPC I do believe the NPC would buy it off of you for about 1,000 or 1,500 gil
Under that system, you can get more money faster from selling it to an NPC. So nobody would ever sell shields in the Market Wards. The only way to buy shields would be from NPCs.
In addition, I can sell a completed shield for 900 gil, or I can sell the materials that are used to create a shield for more than 900 gil. Why would I ever make a shield if I can make more money with less effort by selling the mats? Again, nobody would ever sell shields in the Market Wards.
If SE is going to set prices for everything, then you may as well get rid of the Market Wards altogether. If you want to buy or sell anything, just do it through NPCs.
Fifth, how do you propose to enforce this system? Players can still trade items individually outside of the Market Wards, for any price they want. Is a GM going to have to approve every trade in the game now?
A price controlled economy would be impossible to enforce. And it wouldn't work as well as a free market economy. -
08-13-2011, 12:27 PMLiniont
Wow... I thought I was playing Final Fantasy XIV not Monopoly XIV to be honest i'd rather do business with NPCs then other people because like you everyone who sells items for that high is greedy and because of your greed I have to stop leveling and having fun to farm for hours to make money. I dunno about you but I work 40+ hours a week I don't want to come home and work too aka "make money" I already do that, this game is suppose to be an escape not another F***ing job my goal isn't to get filthy stickin "fake" rich in a video its to explore and experience the content. Can't do that if all my gear costs a total of 1 million gil or requires a month of crafting and gathering. Let's not even talk about the repair system. Take your economics and shove it, I want the games economy to be fair and balanced not out to get me like reality is. Curious other then the obvious RMT's reason what are you gonna do with all that gil you have stashd away not doing anything?
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08-13-2011, 02:34 PMtymoraLike it or not, "getting rich" makes up a good part of the "content" in any MMO. Being "fake" rich in a game is a form of escape in a real world where you can never be (as) rich.Quote:
this game is suppose to be an escape not another F***ing job my goal isn't to get filthy stickin "fake" rich in a video its to explore and experience the content.
If you don't enjoy this aspect of the game, then you might be happier playing:
1) True "F2P" MMOs - Where you can exchange real $ for fake $ so you don't have to "work" in game for your gil
2) Social MMOs - Where there is no economy at all
3) Single Player Games - Where the economy is entirely NPC based
That said, FFXIV's economy is not "perfect" assuming there is such a thing as a "perfect" economy in the first place. Even the best PhDs out there will not be able to create one, much less a regular gaming company. -
08-13-2011, 05:26 PMLiniont
FFXIV's Economy will end up like FFXI's... it's sad to see people actually condoning this or in fact welcoming this. I shouldn't have to go play another game if the economy is s*** in the current game I play... I'm not asking for an "Easy mode" but I don't see anyone else trying to fight RMT's other then join them and monetizing it them self (Blizzard). Honeslt does no one like the idea of smaller economics? I mean seriously... it isn't hard.
None of the NPC's in the game sell all the items but when you sell them an item it has a price, The devs determined this price THUS every item in the game has a price on it all ready. what I was simply proposing is this.
NPC's buying price for rank 5 sword: 1,500 gil (this sword cannot be bought it must be made or found from a drop)
Market Wards minimum selling price: 2,500gil
Market Wards Maximum selling Price: 5,000gil
a PC can only sell within that range keeping inflation down. The entire item team can determine how to obtain [said item] thus determining the value based on those variables.
questions like this should be asked like this.
What level is the item?
where can this item be found?
does it need to be crafted?
how difficult will the crafting process be?
What level will you need to be to craft it?
How much are the materials?
These questions determine the price. The devs implement the price range and we determine what the best price is based on the minimum and maximum.
I know in the real world this doesn't work but in a made up world this could happen if the issue is with time they are already looking to redesign the market wards the interface can be made and the items can be updated before they add anymore.
With this the market becomes stable and worth while to everyone and puts a damper in the RMT's grasp.
Will the markets flood with multiples of the same item? yes
Will the items in the markets be cheap and affordable to all? yes
will it be easier to level both crafting and battle jobs? yes
will a player be able to monopolize the market buy placing multiple important items require for a specific urgent task by giving them a price of 100,000 gil each causing a damper in your fun? no
Thats all I was saying but who cares anymore right I'm just riding a dead horse.... just let the thread die and keep your 150,000 gil Rank 20 swords and gear... -
08-14-2011, 01:00 AMRoaran
They did just slam the door on gil flow. OP is probably having trouble because of this. Prices won't fall for awhile, once people start realizing they can't keep spending as much gil as they used to and stay profitable.
But as has been said before, price fixing is one of the worst ideas imagineable for any economy real or not.
I'll try to just give one example. Item A normally sells for 50,000 gil and supply = demand at this price. Now suppose S-E decides to fix this price at 10,000 gil. Well, people aren't going to just accept losing so much gil, they will stop gathering this item and look for something more profitable, and then the supply falls dramatically. Normally people would WANT to pay more to get the item, but they can't. Suppose the price was fixed at a minimum of 100,000 gil. Suddenly everyone wants to farm this item, and supply rises dramatically. Not everyone is able to sell the item, and normally they would want to LOWER the price but they can't. So excess of Item A just lies around uselessly.
Then you would have to ensure that not only are items fixed @ NPCS and the market wards but trades as well. Otherwise people would just resort to a type of black market trading. Or players could use some kind of bartering system with other items, but then this would lead to an eventual need to fix the price of ALL items.
In the end, ALL items would be ARBITRARILY fixed, to meet some unobtainable goal. I can't imagine how much work it would entail deciding how much every single item would be worth, comparing it with others, and then having to make adjustments based on the different populations of characters and different proportions of crafters/gatheres/DOW/DOM.
Basically, Prices are meant to fluctuate to meet the reality of the situation. Price fixing always has, and always will be a bad idea in any economy, real or not.
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That isn't to say there is no problem with r20 items costing 150,000 gil. But the solution isn't to just say "Oh this item is too expensive, let's just force anyone who makes it to sell for much less." This ends up hurting the seller and stops them from wanting to ever make the item in the first place which in turn hurts people like yourself who actually want to buy the item.
If you want a Rank 20 Sword, for example, to become a reasonable price you have to do a few things. I myself am a Blacksmith capable of creating these items. But, I already have much better ways at acquiring gil, so unless you want to pay me as much if not more gil, I'm not going to bother making these weapons. Really what you would have to do is, if you want to pay less for these items, is make it much faster to create them. I could buy enough materials to make 50-100 Rank 20 swords, and make them all relatively quickly with hasty hand, but I do not see myself being able to sell all of them, so I don't bother with it. Fixing the price even lower, isn't going to make me want to make more, it would just have to opposite effect. -
08-15-2011, 06:15 AMEmeraldHill
Runescape.
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08-15-2011, 07:28 AMakisato
Price fixing is a really bad idea it takes out the personal effort in getting or making an item. this talk about RMT got me thinking about how RMT really breaks a game's economy its not the vast amounts of money that make but the ppl who buy the money they're not smart shoppers they'll any price for any item because they can just get more money with no effort.
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08-16-2011, 06:53 AMVydarrTyrYou ask us to read your idea with an "open mind," but this is your response to someone who disagrees with you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Liniont
/sigh -
08-17-2011, 09:28 AMFrein
As has been pointed out, the OP clearly does not understand economics. Price fixing has been tried many times in real economies and every time it has lead to problems, most notably huge black markets. You cannot fight the natural process of price discovery through supply and demand.
A price fixed economy would be as "fair and balanced" as Fox News. -
08-17-2011, 11:00 AMGeesus
Ok I'm going to jump in here because too many people are equating this to RL economics and incase some of you are not aware, our free market economy here, I'm in the US btw.... is SHITE! People are broke and can't afford to live. Well except for the rich folks. So equate this thought then.
RL rich people =RMT broke people=OP and myself in RL and in the game. I know how to make money in the game. OB and release I was close to a mil if not over and all I did was sell my shards and crafted items higher if none were available (OMG HE JUST DID WHAT WE ALL SAID ABOUT SUPPLY AND DEMAND!) omg yes I did.... difference IS ... I wasn't a jerk about it. Example: If I have Square Maple shield R5 and sell it for 5k when there are some in the wards cool. Now when the wards are empty of those shileds I may TRY 10k... not bad and easy to achive by R5 as the starting quests ALONE give you 11k and not including drops and rewards as gil. So it may or may not. If it didn't I'd go to 7-8K. So who the hell cares about the REAL WORLD? This is Eorzea and as much as we want things to be realistic, when SE added that stupid Stamina bar...we all fussed because it was OMG realistic but it sucked didn't it?! Damn right. All the OP is saying is hey, can we find a mutual way to keep things from being absolutely ridiculous and become a tad more "realistic" then all trying to be money hungry asshats?
Idk if the OPs question is workable or not but when I came back a saw rank 1-15 gear at 999,999,999 that's just plain stupid. No item is worth 999,999,999 because it's not the ONLY item that exists in game. -
08-17-2011, 11:52 AMFreinThe US has a largely centrally planned economy. It is not a free market economy and special interests have rigged it to benefit them at the cost of the middle class (TARP, Fiat-currency, low interest rates, accounting rules, monetization of debt, etc). I could go into depth about this but there are already sources all over the internet how these things work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Geesus
The banking sector just dumped trillions of dollars of debt onto the citizens of both the US and European nations and you wonder why people can't afford to live? It's all in plain sight! -
08-17-2011, 12:44 PMGeesusOh I know. I was just using it as a real world example since that seemed to be where this was headed. But let's not ruin this thread and the game by bringing in the real world of garbage governments and politics. :D LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Frein
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08-17-2011, 05:07 PMVydarrTyrPeople aren't trying to sell stuff for 999,999,999. When they post it for that price, they're just using their bazaars for extra storage. You put it up for that price because you know no one's going to buy it. I don't know anyone in the game who even has that much money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Geesus
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08-17-2011, 08:44 PMGeesusVydarr I know that's what they are doing in their bazaar I have palyed the game before but you can't use that excuse when it's like that ON the ward. Notice I didn't say bazaar I mentioned and stayed on point and was talking the Wards. If I need to, I can happilly SS the items on Figaro in the Wards selling for 999,999,999. Matter of fact, one of then was a pair of shoes I could have used and they were they ONLY pair available in all 3 Cities. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by VydarrTyr
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08-17-2011, 10:37 PMRoaranQuote:
Ok I'm going to jump in here because too many people are equating this to RL economics and incase some of you are not aware, our free market economy here, I'm in the US btw.... is SHITE! People are broke and can't afford to live. Well except for the rich folks. So equate this thought then.
This is the sad truth I'm afraid, and when people start hating on the U.S. economy and blame capitalism, I can't help but roll my eyes. U.S. hasn't been a truly free market, and doesn't really resemble captialism at all anymore. Government has effectively destroyed it, and as a result, you get these glaring problems in the economy. The only problem is politicians will just blame it on 'wild capitalism' or w/e, and people buy it and give even more power to government to 'fix' the problems. Sadly, in reality, capitalism is probably the only solution for any of them.Quote:
The US has a largely centrally planned economy. It is not a free market economy and special interests have rigged it to benefit them at the cost of the middle class (TARP, Fiat-currency, low interest rates, accounting rules, monetization of debt, etc). I could go into depth about this but there are already sources all over the internet how these things work.
The banking sector just dumped trillions of dollars of debt onto the citizens of both the US and European nations and you wonder why people can't afford to live? It's all in plain sight!
As to the point of RL economics not applying to FFXIV's virtual economy... economic principles are based on human interaction and behavior. So long as people act on the same basic interests, almost all of these economic principles can be applied to virtual economies.
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And, as has already been stated, people place items in their bazaar for 999,999,999 for extra storage. They're not for sale, and its rather silly to think that anyone would buy any item for that price. They are probably saving that for themselves, and just because you want it, doesn't mean they have to sell it to you.
Really not sure if this is just a troll at this point... but price fixing is so far beyond any reasonable consideration, I don't really see a point in discussing this particular point anymore. -
08-18-2011, 01:25 AMGeesus
That's because people are lazy minded and believe what the media TELLS them because that's what you use to be able to do. The media wasn't AS biased 35-45 years ago and all the social networking wasn't available either. People continue to believe we can only have a 2 party system, that everyone else (gov) should fix their problems, provide safety and equallity for their group of people or religion while stripping the SAME rights from another person/group or religion because well, THAT group was the problem in the first place. The whole world is becoming ridiculous. How is it the country of Belgium as had no actual working government for a year and their country is STILL running just fine but all the idiots we voted in can't do a damn thing?!
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08-18-2011, 03:44 AMAngryNixon
Price ceilings and floors are bad economics.
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08-18-2011, 06:29 AMVydarrTyrNo. No one expects an item to sell for 999,999,999. Even in the Market Wards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Geesus
The Uldah market wards are full. If a retainer sells out of goods, it disappears from the Market Wards. If they disappear from the Market Wards, there's a chance the player won't be able to replace them because someone else's retainer will grab the spot. So they're either storing additional gear there, or they're placing an item in for 999,999,999 so that it won't sell, and the retainer won't disappear from the MW.