Firestarter Management

There are a few pages of Firestarter discussion buried in one if the BLM threads, but they got rather sidetracked, so I wanted a clean start to the subtopic.

So I'm playing my BLM more often now for Second Coil and was wondering which tactic BLM mains prefer for using Firestarter optimally. What I've been doing rather than blowing OGCDs for fireweaving is continuously casting Fire I up until Firestarter procs, tapping to interrupt, using the proc, and resuming hard casts.

My reasoning is that my DPS doesn't slow in the event that FS fails to proc, and I stay in AF as long as possible by using every proc as it appears. The chance for double procs may only be 16%, but it's still significant.

Thoughts, recommendations?

Always keep casting, use firestarter after you finish casting a Fire1. Never interupt the cast.

Thanks for the advice. Will try it this way. I was concerned about missing out on procs, but I'm gathering that it's a DPS loss over time to interrupt casts to hit every single FS.

i recently switched from ps3 to ps4. on ps3 there was no way it would be better to cancel and spend the proc as the fire1 would be 50% cast by the time it fired off. however after switch to ps4 i can cancel and get the proc of in about 10-20% depending on how alert i am feeling. i'd imagine someone with faster reflexes, and better ping on a ps4 or high performing pc could hit it under 10%. i read that it is almost the same sustained dmg wise and would be very curious to see somone with a solid state hard drive quick reflexes, and very low ping add up the damage on a test dummy single target for at least 5 minutes.

i also noticed i was able to cancel the cast faster after 2.3. maybe the data from ps3's or low performance pc's is now outdated. tbh having reaction time be a factor on a dps roll, or any role in this game would be kind of cool.

From the pretty extensive testing I've done (multiple 20-30 min tests), interrupting for Firestarters was DPS neutral, at best. And that was back before the buffs to Fire 1 and Fire 3 (of which, Fire 1 received the stronger buff, %-wise). So, the case for it now is slightly weaker than it was.

The only time you should interrupt for Firestarters is to fit more damage into a short period of time (bursting adds, certain phase pushes).

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Thanks for the advice. Will try it this way. I was concerned about missing out on procs, but I'm gathering that it's a DPS loss over time to interrupt casts to hit every single FS.

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Yeah, its a pretty big loss. Maybe at high levels of damage in a crit/det build it would be worth it way down the line when gear gets better, but right now you are relying on crits for it to be worth it, which isn't something you really want to be doing, especially when BLM scales so well off spellspeed.

The only time I cancel for firestarter is when I have already started casting blizzard 3 to replenish mp but the proc hadn't appeared before hand.

The obvious reason being the fire 3 will be under astral fire and if I waited till after blizzard 3 I may have to wait on mp tick to use it.

However I do also sometimes keep them depending on if its a boss because I will usually reapply lightning after blizzard whilst I wait on the mp tick assuming its not instant.

Exactly what others have said, do not cancel out a spell cast just because you get firestarter, many of times you can even get a few fire 1's in there.
Too many people freak out about loosing the proc if not used right away, but you do have time

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Originally Posted by chidarake

The only time I cancel for firestarter is when I have already started casting blizzard 3 to replenish mp but the proc hadn't appeared before hand.

The obvious reason being the fire 3 will be under astral fire and if I waited till after blizzard 3 I may have to wait on mp tick to use it.

However I do also sometimes keep them depending on if its a boss because I will usually reapply lightning after blizzard whilst I wait on the mp tick assuming its not instant.

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That's even worse. When you get a proc right before you start bliz 3, save it for when mp's full, transpose, use proc.

come on now there has to be situations where cancellation is better. ex. bard pops FR/BV, u pop RS/IP. those procs are critting for 3.4k missing out on 1 or 2 in that situation is huge swing. 20% of a fire1 is less than a 15ish% chance at 2.5-3.4k is it not? i know the proc will still be there after the fire1 but u lose the proc if you reproc. i mean the only way we can be near the top of dps charts is to get lucky. if you aren't even trying to get lucky your playing for second place at best. am on ps4 so i can't run parsers, but i've been told by group members that i've been top dps in battles that i shouldnt be and it's because i got lucky on procs/crits. i'm sure in a 30 minute situation with no bard no sch etc. you will be correct... but there are no 30 minute fights in the game most are under 5. at least cancel for procs during RS/IP, and during FR/BV.

assuming your ping reflexes and platform are fast enough to cancel at under 20% cast. if you are on a slow pc or a ps3 don't try.

There are 0 situations where canceling cast to use FS is better unless you would have cancelled that cast anyways to dodge or you know you will need that FS for something (burning an add, whatever) within 1 GCD. Canceling for procs during Raging Strikes is even worse.

If you are that concerned about "wasting" a proc, look into fireweaving.

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Originally Posted by rex1976

come on now there has to be situations where cancellation is better. ex. bard pops FR/BV, u pop RS/IP. those procs are critting for 3.4k missing out on 1 or 2 in that situation is huge swing. 20% of a fire1 is less than a 15ish% chance at 2.5-3.4k is it not? i know the proc will still be there after the fire1 but u lose the proc if you reproc. i mean the only way we can be near the top of dps charts is to get lucky. if you aren't even trying to get lucky your playing for second place at best. am on ps4 so i can't run parsers, but i've been told by group members that i've been top dps in battles that i shouldnt be and it's because i got lucky on procs/crits. i'm sure in a 30 minute situation with no bard no sch etc. you will be correct... but there are no 30 minute fights in the game most are under 5. at least cancel for procs during RS/IP, and during FR/BV.

assuming your ping reflexes and platform are fast enough to cancel at under 20% cast. if you are on a slow pc or a ps3 don't try.

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Its a dps loss to cancel casts to use procs. Short of someone having a high critical hit rate (a rate which wouldn't be possible with current gear), there is no point in doing it.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

There are 0 situations where canceling cast to use FS is better unless you would have cancelled that cast anyways to dodge or you know you will need that FS for something (burning an add, whatever) within 1 GCD. Canceling for procs during Raging Strikes is even worse.

If you are that concerned about "wasting" a proc, look into fireweaving.

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Not to start the whole fireweaving debate from scratch, but wouldn't that just increase your time spent effectively not casting, similar to interrupting the next Fire I to use FS? The reasons given for not interrupting casts seem to support not attempting to fireweave since using an OGCD consumes a fraction of a second each time, or am I missing something here as well?

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

That's even worse. When you get a proc right before you start bliz 3, save it for when mp's full, transpose, use proc.

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Agreed transposing at that point is a good thing and something I forgot to add in, thx for the correction.

That being said sometimes its not available due to aoe rotations and the like and you used it during a double / triple flare.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Not to start the whole fireweaving debate from scratch, but wouldn't that just increase your time spent effectively not casting, similar to interrupting the next Fire I to use FS? The reasons given for not interrupting casts seem to support not attempting to fireweave since using an OGCD consumes a fraction of a second each time, or am I missing something here as well?

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You're right that the two aren't really related. But "never interrupt for Firestarter procs" is a golden rule regardless. If one is legitimately concerned about consecutive procs, they can fireweave to assuage their conscience. If their reflex is good enough to do so.

Got your firestarter proc, but already cast bliz 3? Thunder, transpose--->Fire3 ( proc )

Can't really think of anything else to say regarding this.....Thundercloud>Firestarter, if both were available.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

Got your firestarter proc, but already cast bliz 3? Thunder, transpose--->Fire3 ( proc )

Can't really think of anything else to say regarding this.....Thundercloud>Firestarter, if both were available.

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Generally yes, although always use a proc AFTER a F1 cast

Nope, i disagree with Thundercloud > Fs if both are up. If you use FS first, you can use you TC proc to weave the next Fire1.

Puro Strider (gratz to him for his work) cames up with some interesting numbers about it:
"Let's look at pros and cons of Weaving with Thundercloud:
Pros
*Eliminates 60% fail rate of Firestarter when Fire Weaving, which would result in loss of 538.6 potency (Converted from Current BiS Fail amount of -0.840 DPS per weave)
*Not losing 1 DOT tick from previous Thunder I/II (35 * 1.3 = 45.5 Potency)
Cons
*Miss 5% Chance to add 396.5 potency [(60 + ((35 * 8 ) * 1.3)) - 45.5 (from clipping 1 DOT from previous thunder)] from 1 tick while casting Firestarter first + Fire I.
So, we would gain 142.1 potency (538.6 - 396.5) by Fire weaving with Thundercloud instead of using it first in a no-man's land with the RNG God bestowing you with 5% proc for that one tick :P
Converting this to damage and DPS using current BiS; we would gain +392 total Damage or +1.63 DPS"

I agree with pretty much what most people have been saying here. In general you never want to interrupt a cast to use a firestarter, and you can fire weave if you are really that concerned about missing a proc chance.

That said, as a blm that does 6-9 each week as a blm (without swapping to smn on some turns which is popular) fire weaving isn't always practical in all fights and all situations during combat. Some of the off GCD spells are very useful and should be held back for specific uses ( manaward to mitigate damage from briars or fireballs, manawall to mitigate meteor stream, etc) what I have been doing is using some off GCD spells or actions I won't have any need for in a given fight (lethargy and potent poisoning potions are some I commonly use to weave and will fire weave with them when they are available, if I don't have an off GCD ability or spell that I don't value for it's use somewhere else in the encounter, I still would not interrupt a cast to get out a firestarter.

reason using thundercloud first is there is a better chance for it to proc again. I have had thundercloud proc 3x in a row.
And yes interupting a spell to use Firestarter is a loss of dps. You have more then enough time to use it before it is lost.
Only real times is if it is up and you have to dodge, you can scathe> Firestarter

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Originally Posted by Maero

reason using thundercloud first is there is a better chance for it to proc again. I have had thundercloud proc 3x in a row.
And yes interupting a spell to use Firestarter is a loss of dps. You have more then enough time to use it before it is lost.
Only real times is if it is up and you have to dodge, you can scathe> Firestarter

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Nope, you didn't read the maths. Ofc another thundercloud proc can occurs, but it's only 5% on 1 doT tick. And there should be only 1 tick before ou use your Tc. So yeah, i agree with you, if it happens you'll lose some potency BUT it will almost never happens. Overall, it's a dps gain.

@MetaRed: i agree, weaving isn't always a good idea and you sometimes want to keep some "weave CD" (like virus). TC proc gives us a free "weave cd" without downside. i'm taking it.

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Originally Posted by chidarake

The only time I cancel for firestarter is when I have already started casting blizzard 3 to replenish mp but the proc hadn't appeared before hand.

The obvious reason being the fire 3 will be under astral fire and if I waited till after blizzard 3 I may have to wait on mp tick to use it.

However I do also sometimes keep them depending on if its a boss because I will usually reapply lightning after blizzard whilst I wait on the mp tick assuming its not instant.

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I can't imagine this hasn't been addressed yet, but rather than interrupting b3, finish casting it, do your umbral phase, and then rather than blowing firestarter from u3 hit transpose. Then you are starting your astral phase with an A1 instant cast fire 3.

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Originally Posted by Kazard

Nope, you didn't read the maths. Ofc another thundercloud proc can occurs, but it's only 5% on 1 doT tick. And there should be only 1 tick before ou use your Tc. So yeah, i agree with you, if it happens you'll lose some potency BUT it will almost never happens. Overall, it's a dps gain.

@MetaRed: i agree, weaving isn't always a good idea and you sometimes want to keep some "weave CD" (like virus). TC proc gives us a free "weave cd" without downside. i'm taking it.

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That's fine i was just going by with what i always observed. It's all good :)