BiS Shield

Hello all!

As the title states, this is about our BiS shield. A lot of talk in a lot of different threads are going around about what is best and what is crap etc., etc..

From what I have found in scouring forums and what not the order is:

HA Kite
Noct Hoplon
Holy Shield Novus

This is what is out there. So why all the beef about Noct Hoplon being so terribad? HA Kite hands down is the best, iLVL wise, stat wise, even though you loose a smidge of acc for det. Also from what I have read for HS Novus, the current stat allocation idea is a split of 13 / 9, Parry/Acc. Which is understandable, attempting to get the HS Novus to mimic the HA Kite as much as possible.

My question is why is the Noct the red headed step child of the group? Take the HA Kite out of the equation, that is the end point, the goal shield to get. Again, we are pretty much all in agreement that it is the BiS.

So why prefer the HS Novus to Noct. Is it for that 76 extra block rate? Does that make that much of a difference? Some threads that argue the superiority of the Novus speak of parry not having that much of an effect. If this IS the case why meld it to the Novus?

I myself like parry, I see myself parry quite a bit. My Noct gives me "more" opportunity to parry, or so it seems.

Now understand I am not here stating as "the word" that NOCT IS TEH BESTS. I am here to discuss why so many don't consider it the second best to HA Kite, until you get it. Why do so many bash it and profess that Novus is the better shield to have? Making the BiS shield order this:

HA Kite
HS Novus
Noct Hoplon

Just for visual reasons, a comparison.

http://i.imgur.com/xdkOd5y.png

Thanks for your time and I look forward to a good discussion.

Syn

Personally, I don't like noct shield because it is a tower shield and it got low block chance which make it unreliable to me and it also kindda force you into stacking Parry which I also don't like ^^". also I happen to get lucky and got HA shield drop on first T8 kill. (2 month ago) ^^
I going with CRIT/DET personal BIS for PLD. With HA Shield I got more vit and str plus decent block rate and % reduction.

there not really much to compare HA and Novas as it the same shield type.

I put parry13/acc9 on my novus, still trying for a ha shield for dps build

Higher chance to block = better. Your healers will notice that you reduce nukes more often via blocking. Also, Bulwark is only GUARANTEED to do anything at all if u have enough of a block rate. With the Noct Hoplon, you are playing the odds. Not a smart choice for a tank, I think.

Actually, i've both HA kite and Noct Hoplon, and I prefer Noct Hoplon for most fight.

Why?

Parry and Block are random, and won't be usefull until you can force it. You can't force parry, but you can force block with bulwark.

Block strength have a far higher impact on damage reduction than block rate have on blocking chance. And you can raise your blocking chance to secure some block for bulwark.

With my Noct, i have a damage reduction of 42%, which turn Bulwark better than Sentinel when taking physical damage.

To me, the lost of the few pourcentage of blocking rate is really nothing considered to the damage reduction Noct give. It's just the best shield in the game, far better than HA shield.

Trading 11% block reduction, for losing 4% block rate, 1 VIT, 1 STR and few stats is worth it. Expecielly with bulwark.

This is an interesting perspective. My understanding has always been that Kites are the middle ground when it comes to shields, they are level in both rate and strength of block. Buckler / round shields have high block rate but low block strength, Towers have low block rate but high block strength, kites are as I mentioned, the middle ground, a block rate and strength somewhere in the middle of the two.

I had wondered if the 76 extra block rate you get from kite(in this case HA) is that much more important than the 108 block strength you give up. If the percentages above are close to correct it looks to be interesting. I would prefer to block 11% more 4% less of the time, I mean, I am still blocking for more right?

Also, I could be wrong on this, but doesn't Bulwark have more of an impact on shields with less block rate? How is the 60% applied, is it the *1.6? Or is it a flat 60%? What I like about Bulwark when I use it is the 42ish% blocked I see when it's active. Is there clear evidence on how it actually works? What of clear numbers on block rate %'s?

Syn

Aw come on not some ridiculios question can't u see the EPEEN of the said shield beholder? Remember tat shield always become the most first to be seen by the masses before ur tank body gear!

Noct Hoplon : free handout gear and before that its only showed u only cleared t6 (esp if u dun have any t789 tank gears) aka scrubs

HA Shield : considering its t8, and its pretty difficult for the masses to clear it, it makes u a bit standoff and it looks cool to match ur HA Blade! Trust me, my static PLD MT with HA blade but with no HA Shield is very sensitive to this situation lol

HS Novus : means ur FILTHY RICH more RICH POWAH on legacy servers!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Synestr

Also, I could be wrong on this, but doesn't Bulwark have more of an impact on shields with less block rate? How is the 60% applied, is it the *1.6? Or is it a flat 60%? What I like about Bulwark when I use it is the 42ish% blocked I see when it's active. Is there clear evidence on how it actually works? What of clear numbers on block rate %'s?

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Bulwark ADD 60% to the actual block rate. If you have 20%, you'll have 80%. That's the reason why Noct Shield is OP. But as Empressia say, i use it with the skin of HA shield, fit better with the blade :P

Everyone has what they believe is best. Choose the one you feel is better. I personally rather have the more consistent blocking but, that's just me. Other things need to be considered such as the other stats. Str / det give a dps increase. Dps increase means the mob dies slightly faster and the increased enmity. Vit gives more hp and str also increases the amount of damage blocked if said str pushes you past the threshold. IMO the HA is the way to go followed by the HSN.

I know everyone says Noct because of Bulwark. Bulwark+Noct equals an ~80% chance of blocking so 20% of the time its a worthless combo. PLD abilities are saved for extreme hitting moves like Ravensbeak. Would you really risk a 20% chance of being one shot (beak+auto) or do you stack JAs making the whole Noct+Bulwark is OP argument void?

For the record even with HA its not 100% block rate with Bulwark, I have it in the 90-92% range which IMO makes it even better with Bulwark. (less risk of no block when counting on a block)

HA blocks for 31-32%, Noct blocks for 42% (referenced from above)

Beak hits for 7638
HA block would hit for 5270
Noct Block would hit for 4430

Neither will make any difference for your mages and that's the hardest hitting single attack in the game.

Chances are 99% of the population with HA shield never use anything different with a couple people with both that choose to be different, to be different.

It's true, I don't use it on Ravensbeak.

Try it on bahamut claw, on 5 hit it work perfectly.

Never need bulwark during phase 4. Claw isn't dangerous since nothing else is going on.

1st rampart
2nd sent
3rd rampart
4th HG

But again if you did need Bulwark noct is not a damage decrease.

2000 damage per claw.
Noct 80%
4 of the 5 will be 6640 damage.

HA 90%
4 of the 5 will be 7520
5 of the 5 will be 6624

Neither scenario will kill a t9 PLD.
And again you would never be in a position of only using Bulwark.

(jealous of your HA luck btw....16 weeks now and still missing 4 pieces)

It's not needed, neither than any other skill. It's just a good help to have a Bulwark as good as a sentinel.

I do the same exept for the 4th where I use Bulwark, and use my HG on P3 since i'm solo-tanking.

And it's not luck, i'm stilling missing the ring T_T

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LevyLilium

It's not needed, neither than any other skill. It's just a good help to have a Bulwark as good as a sentinel.

I do the same exept for the 4th where I use Bulwark, and use my HG on P3 since i'm solo-tanking.

And it's not luck, i'm stilling missing the ring T_T

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I solo tank as well but I don't use any big CDs during phase3. As long as the caster LB goes off fast there is only a single spike in damage.

I find it ironic that during coil1 endgame tanks were justifying bucklers for twintania and now for Nael it's towers.

Well on COIL1 it didn't mattered that much since both were i90, and not i110-i115.

And I wouldn't consider taking it for Twintania, as you said to tank one big hit the HA one is better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

Beak hits for 7638
HA block would hit for 5270
Noct Block would hit for 4430

Neither will make any difference for your mages and that's the hardest hitting single attack in the game.

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>.> I would definitely notice that difference...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

>.> I would definitely notice that difference...

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That's the extreme since you'll more then likely have additional buffs up. SS/Aldo/another CD.

Mages will be precasting cures which typically lead to over cures. Mages have to plan for the unblocked or parried attack. (Esp if the rate is lower)

A good healer team won't notice 800hp difference the fairy alone will take care of that.

Tower shields actually tend to be the best in terms of total damage reduced over a period of time.
Parry rate is inversely proportional to block rate, so if you have a high block rate, your parry rate is lower.
Take a look at this JP test on parry/block rates with various shield types.
http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...ment_japanese/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

HA blocks for 31-32%, Noct blocks for 42% (referenced from above)
Beak hits for 7638
HA block would hit for 5270
Noct Block would hit for 4430

Neither will make any difference for your mages and that's the hardest hitting single attack in the game.

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It's not the Ravensbeak that kills you. It's the auto-attack/cleave afterwards (with possible crits) that drops you. Having 800 additional HP could definitely be the difference between life and death. Not to mention if healers derp and fail to top you before Ascent and Dive, both of which can take half of your health.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

2000 damage per claw.
Noct 80%
4 of the 5 will be 6640 damage.

HA 90%
4 of the 5 will be 7520
5 of the 5 will be 6624

Neither scenario will kill a t9 PLD.
And again you would never be in a position of only using Bulwark.

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I'm not sure where you're pulling the 2000 figure from, but it's certainly a greater range above 2 stacks. Bigger blocks (though rare) can mean that you could live.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by YuriRamona

Snip

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No the 800 HP is not needed. PLDs are dropping their VIT in t9 in favor of STR. And your point about the cleave/auto favors a shield with a higher block rate since it happens more then once.

Only my first t9 kill did Nael get more than 2 stacks. But again your point is moot. HA will block more often with and without bulwark. The more swings directed at you the more it will pull ahead. Rampart (that you don't need in phase4) will be up a maximum of one time at on average block 4 of the 5 attacks. (~80% block rate)

Put Noct on retainer. (unless the RNG gods have been unkind with HA)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

No the 800 HP is not needed. PLDs are dropping their VIT in t9 in favor of STR. And your point about the cleave/auto favors a shield with a higher block rate since it happens more then once.

Only my first t9 kill did Nael get more than 2 stacks. But again your point is moot. HA will block more often with and without bulwark. The more swings directed at you the more it will pull ahead. Rampart (that you don't need in phase4) will be up a maximum of one time at on average block 4 of the 5 attacks. (~80% block rate)

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Of course the extra VIT is not needed. The easiest solution is for healers to pay attention and time cures.

However, it does make a difference, however small it may be. Yes, many people are dropping VIT in favor of STR - I don't think it proves any point, it's just circumstantial that maybe many PLDs agree that bigger health and bigger blocks are not desirable.

No, Bulwark won't be up twice in the final phase, but many groups can and do swap tanks, so the PLD will only need to use it once anyway. For example, a co-tanking PLD stacked with Bulwark and other defensive cooldowns and a Noct Hoplon will fare much better for his single Claw than a solo tank who must spread out his cooldowns and/or use the HA shield.

This is an important situation where big numbers can and do make a difference, even if overall performance (for example, if the PLD is solo tanking or primary tank) is lower.

Interesting points here. I like the discussion, it's going well. I have the Noct Hoplon and don't regret getting it one bit. Once I get access to the HA tough, I can see myself using that more, ilvl, stats, etc. The Hoplon will have a place in my kit though due to it's great utility.