As a former FFXI Red Mage, I'm sad at the direction the developers have decided to take with hybrid classes.
While yes, I know FFXIV =/= FFXI, and good riddance, there was something magical about a balance between fighting with sword, casting with hand and healing with mind, yet being master of none of them.
The RDM class fight is still considered one of the harder fights in FFXI, and a badge of honor for those who completed it.
Therein lies the dilemma... paraphrasing a bit, Yoshida has stated no new hybrids or debuffers because they might be too confusing.
Wait what?
Sometimes people want a challenge, they want a mark of distinction.
Introducing time sink grinds with no skill is standard in MMOs, overly abundant in FFXIV.
Perhaps, a year into FFXIV, we are ready for such "confusion" and such "challenge."
Does Red Mage have to be for new players? I do not believe so.
I believe the ultimate issue at stake here is the lack of distinction between the "class" you start out as, and the "job" you end as. Namely there is no distinction other than a item you equip. Once equipped, you never remove it.
Adding harder to play jobs that require multiple classes if not other jobs shows that a player has reach the level of skill and should be able to play with more complex play styles.
There are additional benefits to FFXIV as a game. Requiring players to level say WHM in addition to BLM, not only stimulates the economy, but increases the number of healers in que for party finder. Add in GLA as a unlock requirement, and you have more tanks.
In previous Final Fantasy games, there were Jobs, and then there were Advanced Jobs.
Please, do not give up Advanced Jobs without even trying.
Believe in your players... we might surprise you.
For now, rest in peace Red Mage.
~Quia numquam novi vos.~
:( Red Mage, alas we never knew you...? :(
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08-16-2014, 01:39 PMbalanced123:( Red Mage, alas we never knew you...? :(
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08-16-2014, 01:47 PMRyel
I think you're misinterpreting just a bit what's been said so far,
Yoshida has made mention that there are no plans for Hybrids yet as the game is being marketed more towards new MMO players and is still building it's foundation.
This means that at current they're trying to focus on strong base roles (Tank, Healer, DPS) in order for those players to build an understanding of the game systems starting from that point, instead of adding complicated roles that may be hard to pick up on. Seeing as we already have many players struggling with the concepts of tanking, healing and doing damage in the DF this seems to be apparent already.
Yoshida spoke about this multiple times in the past, saying that in the future they will expand to include more variance in job performance / ability and will eventually introduce hybrid roles, it just seems that right now they feel it's still too early. -
08-16-2014, 01:57 PMElHeggunteThis is a "wait and see" type of situation, but I think people are taking Yoshida's words too literally. We wont have specific Buff/Debuff roles any time soon, but that doesn't mean we can't have new classes with support abilities that still fit into the Holy Trinity. We already have Bard which vaguely fits into a "semi-support" role even though it's technically a Damage Dealer. Future classes could easily be designed with a similar mindset. For example, we still know next to nothing about Thief/Ninja's style of gameplay, but if their history across other games is any indication they may very well posses their own form of support via minor target debuffing while they DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by balanced123
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08-16-2014, 02:03 PMMaethusXionPlease tell me where in XI you were able to use a sword, non-solo, pre-Abyssea/Add-ons? I played from sometime through ToAU, got RDM75, beat Maat, and ultimately quit near the end/middle of WotG because every time I wanted to do something besides Haste/Refresh I got whined at and kicked from a party...Quote:
Originally Posted by balanced123
On a serious XIV RDM note, if they would be able to do a mix of how ARC & ACN were done then that'd be a decent basis to go with RDM. Melee weapon, physical attack a little under MNK's constant one, or magic attacks like ACN. Some sort of stance to swap between Sword & Spell for offense, with a little cure like GLA/PLD's. That way the mage-y RDMs can do ranged spells, and the sword-y RDMs like me can do melee attacks. -
08-16-2014, 02:09 PMForteXXSo... 1.0's CNJ, or THM.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaethusXion
http://www.final-fantasy-14.org/abil...&submit=Filter
http://www.final-fantasy-14.org/abil...&submit=Filter
Though closer to THM. -
08-16-2014, 02:15 PMMaethusXionExcept the stance swap is forced for INT or STR, kinda like PLD's Oaths, a constant buff for one or the other, but can't be turned off? One cure, maybe called something like 'Heal', same potency as the other 2 versions. Takes GLA & THM abilities, or hell some of the lost abilities from 1.0>1.xx where ever they were taken at..Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteXX
Basically DON'T give it the backline skills that the playerbase used to screw over XI RDMs that wanted to use swords -
08-16-2014, 02:21 PMMcshiggs
Hopefully they will redo the armory system with 3.0, and do away with things like making it to where every class/job has to have the same amount of skills and traits. I think this needs to happen to work some jobs in and make them feel unique, and the way they should feel to be played.
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08-16-2014, 02:21 PMDhex
Bloop n such.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhex
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08-16-2014, 02:29 PMDishSoap
Pretty sure Red Mage is going to be added. Didn't Yoshi-P say it was his favorite class and he wanted it to be perfect when it came out or something to that effect?
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08-16-2014, 03:51 PMHakuroDK
Just looking at how CNJ/THM's abilities were in 1.0 vs what they are now in 2.0, if there are any changes of that kind of gravity to Class/Jobs in 3.0, it is very likely RDM will be a thing, but not until at least 3.0 at the earliest due to current complications with how the entire structure works. Basically, any Class/Job that uses a completely unique weapon from all the other Class/Jobs could be implemented before 3.0, such as how Rogue/Ninja will use Twin Daggers, how Musketeer/Gunner would use Twin Pistols, how Squire/Samurai would use 2H Swords, or even how a Class/Job like "Oarsman/Viking", who could use 2H Hammers as weapons, would all be acceptable as each one is a very different type of weapon.
The snag is that, as Final Fantasy history serves, there are a lot of Jobs that share weapons, namely swords, daggers, spears, rods, staves, bows, etc, and some weapon types that have appeared in the past, such as whips, chakram, and rifles, don't really have a specific Job they're defined by that aren't already defined by another kind of weapon (Summoners can use whips, but they more famously use rods just like BLMs. Thieves and Ninjas are the primary users of chakram, but they primarily use daggers. Rangers are among the exclusive users of guns, but most prefer bows, etc.)
Just as a proper catalogue, I'm going to list almost every Job in Final Fantasy history, and catalog them based on their timeliness of being included in FFXIV, complete with my reasons for each:
Already Included:
Archer - As a Class instead of a Job
Bard - As a Job
Black Mage - As a Job
Dragoon - As a Job
Gladiator - As a Class instead of a Job
Monk - As a Job
Paladin - As a Job
Scholar - As a Job
Summoner - As a Job
Warrior - As a Job
White Mage - As a Job
More likely to be included prior to 3.0:
Berserker - As the proper DPS analog to Warrior.
Black Belt - As the proper Tank/Support analog to Monk.
Dancer - Could easily be a support analog to Ninja.
Dark Knight - As the proper DPS analog to Paladin.
Geomancer - As the proper DPS analog to White Mage.
Gunner - As either a new Class or a new Job, which would specialize in Dual Pistols.
Ninja - Confirmed to be coming prior to 3.0.
Orator - The purest support Job in Final Fantasy lore, they are reliant on speechcraft to buff allies and debuff enemies. I could see it working to a point, but not on its own, by any stretch of the imagination. It would have to be tied in with Musketeer to have any level of effectiveness.
Parivir - A possible 2H Katana Class precursor to Samurai.
Rune Knight / Rune Fencer - A 2H Sword Job with no real special requirements to be included in-game other than some story elements.
Samurai - A 2H Katana Job with no real special requirements to be included in-game other than maybe some story elements, like being able to visit Doma.
Soldier - A possible 2H Sword Class precursor to Rune Knight / Rune Fencer
Templar - A Tank variant of Dragoon. Would fit extremely well with the Ishgardian Holy See, and Templars in Final Fantasy (more specifically, Ivalice) have a tradition of wielding lances, so it's a perfect fit.
Thief - Re-written to become "Rogue", and has been confirmed as a Class (not a Job) coming prior to 3.0.
Time Mage - As the proper Support analog to Black Mage
Likely will not be included until 3.0 or later:
Assassin - Rogue already has Ninja, which is already too close to what Assassin kind-of is. If it is included, it would have to be thematically different than ninja.
Beastmaster - While it uses whips (which is a unique weapon), it also relies on establishing most beast-typed enemies as potential pets, which would require a LOT of world tweaking.
Blue Mage - Either requires swords to not be exclusively bound to Gladiators/Paladins or requires the job to be replaced with Gun Mage, which is a Blue Mage that uses guns, which would fall under a potential Job for the Musketeer class, pushing it up to "Likely prior to 3.0".
Cannoneer - TECHNICALLY already in the game as an item interaction, but as a proper class, I don't think this will happen without a major system overhaul, as it would require the use actual cannons as part of its ability set which, while it would be very unique and cool, would also require more implementation than I think the dev team would be willing to spend on anything prior to 3.0
Chemist - Technically Alchemist would fit this category, however I am confident that this could be implemented somehow as a non-magical healing/support job.
Freelancer - My single most wanted Job in the game, it cannot be used until, at the very least, weapons and armor become less "Class/Job-specific"-locked.
Gambler - Will require a lot of system tweaking for it to work properly, but I can see it working for people who like to deal in chance. Heck, the race "Ecaflip's Coin" from Dofus did chance-based abilities well enough, why not FFXIV?
Holy Knight - Similar to Assassin's similarities with Ninja, Holy Knight is way too similar to Paladin and would require some major thought and tweaking before proper implementation.
Knight - Read "Holy Knight"
Machinist / Engineer - This would require some serious modifications, but could definitely work, especially if Garlond Ironworks is involved.
Magus - Magi are literally "Super Black Mages", so unless they decide to up the level cap by adding Advanced Jobs (which, in a sense, would actually be fitting to how Final Fantasy works), I don't see Magus happening anytime soon.
Mime - Basically the more mage-oriented variant of Freelancer, and comes with the exact same issues. Though I must admit, I would be excited to meet Famed Mimic Gogo in FFXIV!
Mystic Knight - Requires Swords and Shields to not be a Gladiator/Paladin exclusive.
Necromancer - For those not initiated, they learn their abilities similar to Blue Mages, but they learn Death Magic from killing enemies rather than Blue Magic from having enemy abilities used on them. This would require a fair bit of system tweaking for a skill-learning system similar to Blue Mages.
Oracle - For those not initiated, Oracles are all about using "Countdown" Buffs / Debuffs (i.e. Doom, Death Sentence, etc.), that execute a powerful magical effect after time runs out, which may or may not be random. This would require the freeing up of Staves and such, but no real serious system tweaking.
Puppetmaster - While a lot less needing of world-manipulation than Beastmasters, it would definitely require some kind of alterations to make it perfect. I'm certain XI has a lot of ideas because, while there have been many puppetmasters in Final Fantasy (Luca from FFIV, Reeve Tuesti from FFVII, etc.), XI was the only one that gave them any reasonable kind of structure.
Ranger - While Ranger could technically be implemented straight away without argument, it is actually Bard that would need to be restructured for it to work properly. Ranger would have to supplant Bard as the primary DPS role, with Bard giving Ranger any/all of its non-musical abilities, especially Rain of Death, and transform Bard into a proper support job.
Red Mage - Make 1H swords not exclusive to Gladiators/Paladins. That's literally it.
Sage - Another one of those "Advanced Jobs" I mentioned with Magus. Sages are known for being masters of both Black Magic and White Magic, meaning that a Sage would be capable of using every single spell a Black Mage and a White Mage could cast. Maybe even an Arcanist's magic (sans the pets and pet abilities) could be fully utilized by a proper Sage. But again, that would be way way down the line.
Seer - Exactly the same as a Magus, but for White Magic rather than Black Magic.
Sword Saint - To Sword-Wielding Jobs like Paladins and Dark Knights as Sages are to Magic-Using Jobs. Same deal. The whole "Advanced Jobs" thing.
Viking - When Axes are freed up from Marauder/Warrior exclusivity, this job will work.
Jobs that would likely never ever be used:
Merchant - Way too reliant on the accumulation and usage of gil. Yoshi already went on record saying he didn't want players to require items for their skills, and I am pretty sure gil falls under that category.
Onion Knight - Way too many lore complications (Onion Knights were an elite unit of knights belonging to the Allagan Empire). Besides, Freelancer is pretty much this in every case other than the 3D Remastered version of FFIII, where Freelancer becomes unbelievably useless no matter what level it is.
Squire - Pretty much what Gladiator is built off of. -
08-16-2014, 04:32 PMDeedsieIn my case, practically everything, including the Tu'Lia gods. I was occasionally sought out by some who were familiar with how I played for exp and other activities as well. Had a few naysayers in the mix, but they tended to shut up before long.Quote:
Please tell me where in XI you were able to use a sword, non-solo, pre-Abyssea/Add-ons?