Do we need Raid Finder?

Not a day goes by without reading something along the lines of: endgame is too hard (in short). Let's make it clear that people consider the following endgame: T5, SCoB, EX Primals (T5 since it is mandatory to unlock the second coil).

When Coil first came out, nobody knew what to expect. The things we then complained about the most were not content related. It was either DRG loot again or WAR = broken etc. After a couple of months the first signs of a discrepancy between endgamers and newcomers to endgame came to our knowledge and complaints regarding endgame difficulty started. Months later word broke out about the nerf to Coil 1-5 to close the gap where the devs eventually found 15% (?) echo reasonable despite adding higher ilvl gear. It's safe to say it was double nerfed.

At the moment we have SCoB. The discrepancy is even bigger especially when people gain access to it far quicker but not through learning content (do hunts, be ilvl 105+, jump into EX primals/SCoB).

While I do not agree with arguments this group has, there unfortunately is a large group that wants endgame to be way easier. Let's leave their arguments for what they are at this point. Another group, I would put myself in this one, are fine how the SCoB and EX primals are. In fact, they would not mind an even tougher challange*. While I think this group is smaller, it balances out the community.

Do we now get content released to half-satisfy both groups? Do we get "hard" content only to get it nerfed at the next patch which basically means the first group will always play catch up? Do we get hard-ish content so the first group has a chance too which basically means the second group gets the finger?

All I see is two groups who want to enjoy the game in their way. Do we need an option to clear the content with pugs, Raid Finder? The difficulty of course would be lower than the normal one.

I will leave the next question up for discussion: what ilvl drops for Raid Finder groups?


*I am aware of savage mode. Don't want to discuss that here since that's another discussion and it's kind of a beta.

If you can't clear the way it is you're bad. After 2.3 hit I've seen people fail T5, Levi, and Mog in ways I never thought imaginable. If you can't clear with a pug, PUT A GROUP TOGETHER. USe your words and communicate with people.

Spreading out raids from easy to hard mode simply delays the time it takes for players unable to down the hardest content easily to ask for nerfs. People always want the best, and they'll always take the easiest route to get there. People who tell you they simply want to see the content are lying to you (or in the minority, or both). This is a MMORPG and people will always want the best gear.

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Originally Posted by Yoninxi

If you can't clear the way it is you're bad. After 2.3 hit I've seen people fail T5, Levi, and Mog in ways I never thought imaginable. If you can't clear with a pug, PUT A GROUP TOGETHER. USe your words and communicate with people.

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We're in the same boat, though I'd use a more constructive way to break it down to someone. I do understand where you are coming from a hundred percent!

I just read this post before making this thread: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...reme-over-tune. I found the examples of the OP quite alarming. If these are reasons to come to a "nerf endgame" conclusion, man..

Fact remains that there are loads of people with this mindset.

Most of us just want a less strict lockout so we can do things with more people and not have to stick to a strict schedule.

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Originally Posted by Estellios

Most of us just want a less strict lockout so we can do things with more people and not have to stick to a strict schedule.

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I'm in this boat. I am in a coil static, however it'd also be nice to do SCoB with other friends.

There is content for lesser skilled and those who don't/can't do harder content. All the dungeons, Crystal tower 1 and 2, Hunts, even relics, though they are a time sink are wholely soloable and due to them being easy are time based instead of difficulty based.

Yet for those who prefer challenging content there is ex primals and Coil 1 and 2.

If you complain some content is too easy, then it probably wasn't designed to cater to your playstyle. Also if you complain certain content is too difficult then the same applies.

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Originally Posted by abzoluut

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So ur talking about these "casuals" who can't use their brains and willing to spend real effort to clear the most challenging content? By the term "clearing", i'm pretty sure they only want to clear once not farm it over and over amirite?

Then, the proposed raid finder shall nerf the mechanics heavily at the cost of the REWARDS BEING NERFED TOO by a significant margin (just like WoW's raid finder) by approximately 20 ilvls, bringing down reward to a level equal to FREE LOOTS level aka myth 90 gears atm.

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Originally Posted by Empressia

So ur talking about these "casuals" who can't use their brains and willing to spend real effort to clear the most challenging content? By the term "clearing", i'm pretty sure they only want to clear once not farm it over and over amirite?

Then, the proposed raid finder shall nerf the mechanics heavily at the cost of the REWARDS BEING NERFED TOO by a significant margin (just like WoW's raid finder) by approximately 20 ilvls, bringing down reward to a level equal to FREE LOOTS level aka myth 90 gears atm.

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Didn't work in WoW, won't work here.

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Originally Posted by Empressia

... REWARDS BEING NERFED TOO ...

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Just want to mention, JP forum some suggestions about unlock cob2 with no loot as trade off,
bcoz they want to play it, not farm it.

I am curious if there is no loot for extra runs in the week,
will ppl really spent their time on it, while everyone say hunting made all contents meaningless ^^;

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

Just want to mention, JP forum some suggestions about unlock cob2 with no loot as trade off,
bcoz they want to play it, not farm it.

I am curious if there is no loot for extra runs in the week,
will ppl really spent their time on it, while everyone say hunting made all contents meaningless ^^;

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There are still people who wanna play it with friends "sometimes" just like me, I m sure.
Of course, if no loot, then people will not do it often, but probably only do it when their close friends ask for help.

Oh btw, when they asked about no loot. I believe they mean only the person who clear first within week will not get loot, he can still help friend get loot.

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Originally Posted by abzoluut

...I will leave the next question up for discussion: what ilvl drops for Raid Finder groups?...

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I think Dev already gave the answer. ^^;
The savage mode was released to fullly satisfy the ppl need harder contents, and unqiue awards could be obtained.

Meanwhile, the menitoned "Raid Finder group" would be equal to DF verison,
when it becomes available, this content is not "endgame" anymore, it is old content and not ending the game,
the loots are outdated, so the drops are nerfed automatically.

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Originally Posted by Alise

..I believe they mean only the person who clear first within week will not get loot, he can still help friend get loot.

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Yes i read many many opinions and found most ppl objected above for selling runs...etc.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

There is content for lesser skilled and those who don't/can't do harder content. All the dungeons, Crystal tower 1 and 2, Hunts, even relics, though they are a time sink are wholely soloable and due to them being easy are time based instead of difficulty based.

Yet for those who prefer challenging content there is ex primals and Coil 1 and 2.

If you complain some content is too easy, then it probably wasn't designed to cater to your playstyle. Also if you complain certain content is too difficult then the same applies.

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Prefer? I've seen requirements for joining some FC's must be available always even able to miss work if necessary to clear new content. It's a matter of finding the right people and I think LS do a far better job but there's a catch there too.

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Originally Posted by Elven

Prefer? I've seen requirements for joining some FC's must be available always even able to miss work if necessary to clear new content. It's a matter of finding the right people and I think LS do a far better job but there's a catch there too.

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It really depends. Our FC works well together but schedules don't sync up until 2 specific evenings. It would be nice to use our LS we made with another FC to fill in spots and run whenever we have the people together but running without the people that aren't available means they miss out on extremely valuable practice. We want to participate in the challenging content but requiring a schedule is an annoying barrier to that.

It is encouraging to hear that the JP players feel similarly.

The content is not more harder, it is just less PUG-friendly.

To add more to this thread, I'd like put in my suggest on have a "already cleared this" checkbox in party finder, to let in only players who have cleared before the given PF encounter. Very useful when you want make a farm party and be sure to not carry learning people cheating about their exp status.

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Originally Posted by Estellios

Most of us just want a less strict lockout so we can do things with more people and not have to stick to a strict schedule.

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I understand your situation. Do you also have a solution other than removing the lockout? When a lockout for endgame is removed, groups which do have the schedule (which is a big group too), will clear all endgame within the first two weeks. I don't think that's a healthy development for a subscription MMO.

If your answer is "then don't clear it that fast", that's just like the other group saying to you "just find another group to clear stuff with". It's easy to complain about a situation. It will help more if it includes a possible solution.