Summoner Gameplay

I'm a new player. I've been planning to play Black Mage in PvE, but now I'm not so sure. It seems there's a lot to do in endgame PvE from what my FC has told me, with the mana swapping and the Manawall use and the teleporting, etc.

So, is Summoner maybe a better choice for me for endgame PvE, if I'm looking for a relatively simple experience? Less to keep track of? Less emergency buttons to mash?

Thanks!

I can't even

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Originally Posted by Yoninxi

I can't even

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?? Sorry, what are you saying?

Blm and Smn are about equal in "complexity" which isn't saying much. It's easier to get better dps on smn though.

OK. Coming from WoW where my mage had about a 6-button rotation and a few cooldowns, it seems like a lot to manage.

I would say summoner has more to keep track of than black mage assuming you aren't letting the pet run on auto. Summoner has more cool downs to keep track of as well as being back up rez.

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Originally Posted by Yoninxi

I can't even

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Finish a sentence? :P

But for the topic at hand SMN is a bit more complex than BLM. Short version:

BLM:
Fire III to get 3 stacks of astral fire
Spam Fire I until out of MP
Blizzard III to get 3 stacks of umbral ice
Put on Thunder
Toss in Thunder III's when they proc
Toss in Fire III's when they proc
Buffs in the mix as well

SMN:
Buff up first so all your DoT's are peak DPS
Maintain Bio
Maintain Bio II
Maintain Miasma
Maintain Miasma II
Manage Aether stacks for DoT utility/burst DPS
Shadowflare
Ruin spam when everything's peachy
Pets:
Garuda - maintain Contagian and her DoT
Ifrit - Prevent from stunning

There's a bit more to each of course. BLM mechanic is pretty simple to get down when you play it enough. Due to casting times it's a bit harder to push out the DPS in movement-intense battles but it's still good DPS. SMN is easier to maintain high DPS due to instant casts (Ruin II when running instead of Ruin) and DoT's are a steady reliable source. The trade off is that SMN has a lot more to keep track of with all of their DoT's and their pets.

As they share most gear I honestly say level both up. BLM is awesome AoE and is great for speed runs. SMN is awesome single target and has the mobility factor for bosses. Leveling both up is also the best way to figure out which suits you better.

OK, thanks for breaking it down. I was told that with Summoner, they get an ability that refreshes all their DOT's. Is that true?

Is it my imagination, or is there more to keep track of in this game's PvE than in most MMO's??

It's been forever since I played SMN but I'm pretty sure they were referring to Contagion which just adds some time to all the DoT's you placed on the target.

And I'm not so sure. RIFT mage's had some souls that were crazy. Pyromancer had like 6 proc abilities that worked in a similar fashion to Firestarter on BLM. Warlock (I think that was the soul) had about 7 DoT's to maintain on top of a regular nuke or two (although they did have an ability or 3 to refresh the durations of their DoT's). Never really played mages in other games except FFXI but that game had much less to keep track of (unless you were a RDM).

Yeah, I guess Contagion adds 15 seconds to the DOTs' durations. Can you keep them up indefinitely that way?

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Originally Posted by Victros

Yeah, I guess Contagion adds 15 seconds to the DOTs' durations. Can you keep them up indefinitely that way?

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You cannot.
Contagion has a rather long cool down. You get it about once every other or every third cycle of DoT maintenance. Picking when to extend your DoTs is crucial in some fights (Leviathan Extreme comes to mind).

My rotation for SMN in Turn 8:

Aetherflow/Obey > Raging Strikes > X-Potion of Int > Miasma > Bio II > Bio > Fester/Contagion (both of these are during cool down) > Spur/Rouse > Swiftcast > Shadowflare > Fester (during cool down) > Enkindle > Ruin Spam > Fester.
Rinse and repeat as able and time everything with Battle Voice/Foe's Requiem.

SMN is more involved than BLM, generally. But the payoff is better.

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Originally Posted by Victros

Can you keep them up indefinitely that way?

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No, you can only use that a maximum of once every 60(?) seconds.

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Originally Posted by Victros

OK. Coming from WoW where my mage had about a 6-button rotation and a few cooldowns, it seems like a lot to manage.

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This combat system is a tad slower, but involves a lot more situational/complex rotations.

Nope you'll always have to recast your DoTs. Contagion has a 60s recast and your longest DoT, Bio II, lasts 30s. You'll want to cast our DoTs in order of longest duration to shortest. This means Bio II will be down to about 18s remaining if memory serves by the time all DoTs are placed and ready for a 15s extension.

Well... you will want to get Thaumaturge to 26 for Swiftcast for all casting jobs and Arcanist gets the very useful Eye for an Eye at 34 so if you want you can level both up for cross-class skills and to see which you like better. I feel that by level 35 both SMN and BLM will have enough of their tools for you to get a good idea how they will play and which you like better.

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

SMN:
Buff up first so all your DoT's are peak DPS
Maintain Bio
Maintain Bio II
Maintain Miasma
Maintain Miasma II
Manage Aether stacks for DoT utility/burst DPS
Shadowflare
Ruin spam when everything's peachy
Pets:
Garuda - maintain Contagian and her DoT
Ifrit - Prevent from stunning

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You absolutely do not want to "maintain" Miasma II. It's potency unbuffed is the same as a Ruin so you're wasting tons of MP. Only use Miasma 2 when you're ready to cast Contagion to extend the potency

Aetherflow does more then DoT Utility and Burst Damage. Yes Fester is nice, but Aetherflow also restores MP inate

Shadowflare is the 4th DoT you need to maintain

So is it my imagination or does this game have more complicated rotations or priority systems than most MMO's?

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Originally Posted by Victros

So is it my imagination or does this game have more complicated rotations or priority systems than most MMO's?

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Honestly I find WoW "rotations and priority" systems more complex then here, and those systems are already easy enough to understand (example would be Frost DK Dual Wield VS 2H rotations). It's all about getting used to it. Playing SMN becomes second nature once you get the hang of the gameplay. I'd recommend just beating on a training dummy until you get the hang of things

Good luck

Good idea, I like enemies that don't fight back! :)

I'm not experienced enough at FFXIV to know, I suppose. It just seems that most of the jobs I look at have a lot more than the 6-7 button rotations I'm used to in WoW! Maybe I'm making it out to be more complicated than it is.

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Originally Posted by Victros

So is it my imagination or does this game have more complicated rotations or priority systems than most MMO's?

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The rotations/priorities sound complicated if you're still at the beginning and hear what they'll be at endgame, but the game introduces you to it gradually, adding a skill each few levels, so you get a chance to experiment with how they work together. (It's one reason I actually don't always like getting too many XP boosts at once. I want a while at each level range to get used to one set before it changes again.)

But anyway, if you do decide they're too complicated, you could also consider Archer/Bard. True, it's not a magic casting class, but it's still ranged DPS, so in many ways plays similarly to a caster. It's got a pretty simple main rotation with a few cooldown buffs to add in whenever available, and (when getting to the Bard job) a few support songs to play as needed.

Play BRD if you want simplicity

In my opinion all classes require from @ endgame to know the fight itself, as well as knowing your class capabilities and aspects.
If you do not know the fight mechanics, you will not have optimal gameplay with whichever class you are on.

Each class has its own difficulties and nuances. There is a lot to handle for basically everybody at end game. At 50lvl you have plenty skills, buffs, off-GCD abilities and in all really counting as an endgame fights, you have other things to take care off - mechanics of an encounter.
I would suggest to try out different classes and figure out which style you like most. Eventually you want to level most (if not all classes) to certain level for cross-class abilities.

Regarding BLM and SMN.
This comes down basically to personal playstyle preferences. This game has great balance in classes so whichever you pick, you will do as good as comfortable you feel with the playstyle for your job.
Personally, I do not enjoy BLM playstyle at all. I've been trying to force myself to lvl it up to 50 as it would share everything but the weapon with my Summoner. However, lvling this class is so damn boring to me that I postpone it and choose to level other classes whenever I feel I could use some break from my Summoner :)

Now, before going forward, I would like to mention that I do not have BLM lvled to 50, so my opinion regarding difficulty is based just on my observations, opinions from my buddies and forums.
I will not take into consideration the aspect of moving during the fight as it affects more or less all the classes. Although, BLMs dps is dropping most from what I have seen due to movement.
Playstyle of BLM seems pretty straight forward to me as other than:
- watch for your procs to get activated
- and anticipate incoming AOE,
you do not really have much to take care off.

Summoner is considered as a difficult class from what I hear ingame and on forums.
I feel quite comfortbale with this class and haven't found it difficult much. Of course learning all the time how I can maximise my output in particular encounters and so on, and so on.
Summoner has most likely more things to keep an eye on:
- micro managing pet - positioning, using pet's attacks when appropriate
- watching out for dots and refreshing when appropriate
- managing your Aether stacks
- rezzing people (you should be the first one in line to rezz fallen comrades)

At the beginning it felt a bit overwhelming in difficult encounters when I was not that familiar with the class, yet.
However, after a while I would say that all classes require just muscle memory, knowing the encounter, understanding your class abilities and just common sense.

Long story short - try out both and see which suits you more. At around 35 lvl you should have already a feeling of how the class will be played at endgame as basically playstyle won't really change at endgame, will just get adjusted to new abilities :)

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Originally Posted by Victros

So is it my imagination or does this game have more complicated rotations or priority systems than most MMO's?

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I don't think they're any more complex, it's just a matter of what you're watching. WoW has varying resources (runes, energy, rage, etc.) and a lot of procs/short CDs to watch for, not as much emphasis on buffs/debuffs. Here, there aren't that many extra resources (Wrath stacks and Aether stacks), and only a few procs. There's more emphasis on maintaining buffs/debuffs.

It also depends on which class you're talking about. I don't think you'd be hard-pressed to find anything as (mechanically) simple as FFXIV's PLD out there.

But in the end, to me, it boils down to the same sort of priority system. If X is true, use A. If X is not true, but Y is, use B, otherwise use C. It's just a matter of which part(s) of the screen your eyes are on.

It'd also help to compare classes via their actual mechanics instead of their class names. BLM here is more like Moonkin than anything else. SMN is more like a Shadow Priest with a pet. BRD is closer to the WoW mage model, where you're watching for procs and CDs more than buffs/debuffs (though you are still watching for those).