FF14's Card Game ~ Improving On the Old

TL;DR Version

-Balance for Competitive Multiplayer
-Combine Triple Triad & Tetra Master
-Reduce RNG-Reliance
-Achievements/Collector’s Level
-Adjustable Trade Rules
-Card Bonding/Leveling
-Card Conversion
-Custom/Tournament Rules
-Division/League Play
-Global/Regional Ladder/Ranking
-In-Game Seeded Tournaments!!!
-New Rule Options: Draft & Unique
-Refreshed Purpose for Older Content

Both FF8 & FF9's Card Games had their own strengths & weaknesses. I'd like to propose we create a better card game for FF14, drawing from the strengths of the former. My hope is SE uses this thread to help inform the inevitable release of their card game, or takes inspiration from the text. Please share your own contributions & feedback!


FF8's Triple Triad

9-Grid (3x3)
Cardinals
Elements
Static Cards
Trade Rules

+purely skill-based
+finely balanced cards
+customizable ruleset
-lacks depth
-some silly rules

FF9's Tetra Master

16-Grid
Card Leveling
Card Powers
Diagonals
Grid-Blocks

+lots of depth
+collector's level
-grossly rng-based
-no custom rules

The larger board & randomized grid-blocks made for a wonderful experience in Tetra Master which ultimately felt much more rich than Triple Triad. However, too much reliance on RNG killed any competitive value Tetra Master might have otherwise had. On the flip side, Triple Triad has that "easy to learn, hard to master" appeal.


Custom Rules that worked:

Combo (connected weaker cards taken also)
Elemental (bonus for matching element, hindrance for opposing)
Open (visible hands)
Plus (sum of two connected cards equals power, flip both)
Random (random hands)
Same (two connected cards both equal to power, flip both)

Additionally, I would add two new Rule Options: Draft & Unique. Draft would be an open-handed form of play where players take turns selecting their playing cards. Unique means what it sounds like, no cards of the same kind in your hand.

As well, I would opt to remove Same-Wall, made for too much custom "bloat" imo (the grid-walls would count as powers of 10 for Plus & Same Rule purposes).

Trade Rules were a nice touch as well. Having the option to decide between One (winner takes one among cards captured), Diff (winner takes equal to the difference of cards captured), Direct (winner/loser both keep their respective card captures), & All (winner takes all) would be exciting in player-matches. However, I think this option should be limited to "in-person duels" (versus ranked queue).

Custom Rules ought also mostly be limited to in-person duels so as to reduce queue times & create a more standardized, "tournament" ruleset for ladder/ranking purposes. Perhaps Combo defaulted on & option for either "Open" or "Closed" Hand queues.

Lastly, a revision of Card Powers is essential for this game to thrive. In Tetra Master, a godlike card could lose to a bottom-tier card on the basis of severe RNG. A power of 10 could random-roll any number between 0-175 vs. a defense of 1 able to random-roll any number between 0-15... you merely "upped your odds" of success probability-wise against a terrible card, but were still subject to losing in lieu of harsh RNG.

Some RNG is okay & often beneficial, however it shouldn't be game-breaking or spoil competitive play. This method turned Tetra Master into a luck-based game vs. skill & would ultimately ruin the experience in a PvP environment.

I propose all the RNG lie in randomized element & grid-blocks placement. Naturally, the board should spawn no more than 6 each of elements & grid-blocks, though I think it'd be neat for in-person dueling only to be able to adjust these figures.


What I propose:

16-Grid (4x4)
Card Powers
Collector's Level
Custom Rules
Diagonals
Elements
Grid-Blocks
Minimal RNG
Trade Rules

As you can tell, this is much more akin to Tetra Master but draws heavily from Triple Triad. Tetra Master naturally had Combos enabled by default, but I think having the option to disable them would be interesting. Additionally, I've infused it with Custom Rule Options (plus Unique, minus Same-Wall), Elements, & Trade Rules. As stated above, there must be a standardized Ranked Queue for the sake of competitive play.

It would be extremely exciting if you could move up divisions/leagues. Card Tier ranges would rise with Player Rank & to queue within certain ranges, you must possess a minimum card amount in the respective tiers. Ex. Low-Grade Tier Queue could require 10 of each tier 1, 2, & 3 cards, etc.


Card Powers should be tweaked thusly:

As above, remove the RNG element.

In Tetra Master, cards had an offensive strength & type as well as both physical & magical defensive stats. Ex. an 8P64 would beat a 5M42 in direct combat as 8 physical (P) power trumps 4 physical defense. Types include: P, M, X, or A. P & M would match against physical & magical defensive stats, respectively. X would match against the lesser of the two defensive stats (think Chaos damage) & A would match against the lowest figure altogether (like X but also pairs against card power).

Like before, a power of 10 could lose against a defense of 1 & I don't think that should be the case here. The offensive types alone serve strategic play well enough, especially when combined with rules like Plus or Same.


Three final touches would cap this suggestion off nicely: Card Bonding, Card Leveling, & Collector's Level.

Card Bonding is the process of Spirit-Bonding cards through use. Once Spiritbonded, a card can be converted into an item from the creature's loot table (with a flat % chance for HQ) or an exclusive, unique drop (e.g. Twintania or Xande Minions!). Special drops should be cosmetic/vanity-based only so as not to 'force' anyone into playing.

Hunt Marks cards could even convert into Allied Seals with a chance for a Blood-Spattered Log!

A neat bonus to this feature is the ability to net one add'l loot for the week from current lockout content. This wouldn't be overly cheap as card drops from raid bosses would be somewhat rare anyway, SB at a slower, & nobody is guaranteed a loot item for the week anyway ("I main MNK & only ever see BRD drops!"), this could curb that to a very minor degree.

Cards would be tradable on the MB, however Spiritbond % would reset upon sale/trade. Raid Boss cards would either be untradable or become unconvertible upon sale/trade so as to prevent the gain of loot players haven't earned themselves (I prefer the latter).

Card Leveling would occur at both 50 & 100% SB rates. Say a card has an ilvl of 20, it would increase to i25 & i30 at max, providing a slight edge to those who've invested into their compositions. A single point raise in one form of defense could be equivalent to 5 ilvl's while a rise in power could equal 10. Therefore, some cards may not grow until 100% in the case of a power gain.

Another exciting aspect of this is that the type of growth could random/unknowable on a per-card basis. You could have one Dark Helmet card that grows in power & another which grows in defense (either 1 phys. & 1 mag. or 2 phys. or mag.).

Tiers could be every 20 ilvl's so a max-SB card would technically fall in like a "x.5" Tier Category, the edge of having a full-SB team could help a player push divisions but wouldn't be game-breaking due to the minor nature of the bonus (more fun than anything).

Ex. T1: i20-30, T2: i40-50, & etc. Divisions could be Tier-specific with Leagues every 3 Tiers; 12 Divisions & 4 Leagues (C, B, A, & S). Tiers could be compromised of mobs every 5 levels (e.g. T1: mobs 1-5, T10: mobs 45-50), while Tiers 11/12 would comprise current & past Dungeon/Raid Content (e.g. T11: High-Level Dungeons, CT, Older Primals, BC1-5, T12: Expert-Level Dungeons, ST, Newer Primals, BC6-9).

Divisions & Tiers match while League-Play could require the use of cards from the prior 3 Divisions, for instance: a C League Deck must perhaps be comprised of 3 D1, 2 D2, & 1 D3 cards. Players could queue both by league & divisionally though maybe only League-Play would count toward Ladder/Ranking.

Collector's Level would be awesome for achievers & completionists. For every X number of unique cards gained, one could rise in CL & earn unique achievement rewards/titles. A fun example of special reward would be Minion//Mount/NPC cards (e.g. Fat Chocobo & Hildebrand cards!). Would give plenty of reason for players to go out into the world & back into those older dungeons which would be a huge plus for FFXIV in my opinion.


What do you all think?!

What do I think? I think I'm not smart enough to contribute to this thread in a constructional sense. So I'll just say this, Tetra Master was WAY more fun.

I hate to be one of those people because this thread intrigues me, but that... is kind of a lot of text. Could you possibly give a tl;dr version at the bottom of your post? Sorry to be a pain about that!

Also, I'd like to endorse the idea of Adventurer Cards, which would be unique, rare, one-of-a-kind, impossible to desynth or discard cards that would evolve with one's collector level from being extremely weak to one of the most powerful cards in the game. Again, depending entirely on Collector Level. Maybe even have "Materia Tokens" to modify a character card's stats, which can be attained by desynthing cards.

Another idea would be to establish a special reward currency earned by winning games, called "Allagan Cardstones" or something, which can be used to purchase glamour items in FFXIV, such as "Legacy" gear, "Legacy" Wind-up Minions, "Legacy" Barding, "Legacy" Airship glamours (Airships are coming, and you KNOW there's going to be call for Airship glamours), Furniture, etc.

...and when I say "Legacy", I mean items that are inspired by past / present Final Fantasy games that may not be represented in XIV. Items that could be considered Legacy would be things like "Pilot's Chocobo Afro" (ilvl 1 Head gear, Legacy: FFXIII), "Wind-Up Garland" (Terrestrial Minion, Legacy: FFI), "Magitek Barding" (Chocobo Barding, Legacy: FFVI), "Invincible Hull Plating" (ilvl 1 Hull Plating, Legacy: FFIX), "Magic Lamp" (Tabletop Furniture, Legacy: FFV / FFVIII)

And of course, being able to buy Card Packs in FFXIV with Gil or GC Seals. The more powerful the cards, the more expensive the packs.

personally i am against this.

1. my main reason is i want something original i don't want ff8 or ff9 card game. sorta like everyone wants blitzball added, which i am personally against because i would rather get something original and not just something we already seen and had before.

2 the idea of spirit bonding cards and turning them into items is just either too op or too worthless. this will be a hit or miss like hunts it would just be really worthless or overly worth it.

a card game should stay a card game and be part of only the card game. by making it part of the actual game it's not a mini game anymore it's a actual system that will make players feel forced to use.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

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1. I get what you're saying there. The game itself should be unique. And that's a fine idea.

2. The concept of spirit bonding cards and turning them into items is exactly as op / worthless as our current system of spirit bonding items and turning them into materia, or desynthing items into other items. I see zero issue with it.

Honestly, I don't see it as something that should be a standalone thing. Everything in the game right now is already intertwined with everything else. Modern PVP in this game directly affects PVE, PVE gear has a direct impact on PVP, Gathering affects Crafting, both of which affect the Market, which affects everyone and almost everything. Retainers affect everyone. All of the dungeons affect crafting due to dropping of crafting gear. Most endgame content can affect retainers, which boosts their ilvl to drop high-level stuff.

Separating a single gameplay asset from the rest would make the game feel extremely artificial compared to every other gameplay asset. Heck, in a way, it almost wouldn't be worth the time and effort to code it, because only the diehard card game fans would actually play it, and everyone else would leave it alone. If it becomes intertwined into the gameplay, even if it's just for a bunch of items that players can get through at least five other methods, that will significantly boost popularity for the feature, due to it being a unique gameplay feature that doubles as a method of earning said items.

I don't want to be forced to use a feature either. Though is it not true that I am forced to participate in certain specific content to get certain specific items? I am forced to desynth a bunch of random fish just to boost my skill high enough to desynth gigantsharks and get my hands on some new glamour pieces. I am forced to deal with difficult, angry people to participate in and complete the Coil plotline. I am forced to run Syrcus Tower over and over and over to get the Throne Gem and the Wind-Up Onion Knight. Does that mean all of those features are bad? Not really, no. It just rewards specialists for being specialists, while still granting stuff to generalists who want to try everything.

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Originally Posted by HakuroDK

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this is what i meant

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Originally Posted by Parz3val

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Hunt Marks cards could even convert into Allied Seals with a chance for a Blood-Spattered Log!

A neat bonus to this feature is the ability to net one add'l loot for the week from current lockout content. This wouldn't be overly cheap as card drops from raid bosses would be somewhat rare anyway, SB at a slower, & nobody is guaranteed a loot item for the week anyway ("I main MNK & only ever see BRD drops!"), this could curb that to a very minor degree.

Cards would be tradable on the MB, however Spiritbond % would reset upon sale/trade. Raid Boss cards would either be untradable or become unconvertible upon sale/trade so as to prevent the gain of loot players haven't earned themselves (I prefer the latter).

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forcing people to do raid content for a mini game? that's like asking people to beat twintania while its raining at 5am for sightseeing.

minions don't do much and even mounts are no different other then looks. sure you can say well you can just ignore those cards but my point is unless you're saying the cards don't matter and i can use the weakest card and still beat say a twintania card then you're forcing players who just wanna play a card game into end game raid content to even be able to effectively play a mini game.

so what i am saying is i don't mind collector items being hard to get. but when it directly affect people where they have to just say welp i can't get this so i can't play this game because someone can just farm the rare cards that i have no chance of getting and stomp me it will greatly decrease the number of people who could enjoy the game.

I have basically wanted Triple Triad as an online card game since forever.

So... my opinion is pretty obvious. Tetra Master was indeed too RNG based and just didn't have any definitive result, and card stats resulted in way too many possibilities and farming.

I don't think card drops should be exclusive to instances. In fact I think they should be excluded from them entirely. For card drops, you should go with things like weekly randomized card packs, trading (and winning), as well as maybe something like a "Card" ability to use in the wild on monsters. I don't think cards should be too rare that only a handful of people have them, or at least so that the rarest cards are ones no one will use other than to show off.

@Mushashidon, you wouldn't be forced to raid.

The cards in each division would be perfectly balanced against others in the same division. A Scylla card would be no more powerful than a Nael card, for instance. To compete in the "Upper-Tier" League (optional), you'd only need 1 "end-game division" card, which consist of Levi/Moogle/Ramuh Ex, any boss in Ct2, & SCOB cards. These cards are purchasable on the MB too (just no longer convertible).

And the SB wouldn't be OP, some might argue next-to-worthless but if they don't want the items nor care... they could just discard or sell the cards. Maybe even do a Card Transmutation, turn 5 cards of a Tier in for 1 random card in the next Tier.

All I know is that I want a Card game, nao

Give it to us plz Yoshi <333

I logged many, many, MANY hours in Tetra Master. Never got into Triple Triad. Still would love to play Tetra Master today.

I also think Tetra Master was ultimately way more fun, which' why I want to make it work. While I think there's merit to inventing yet another entirely brand new card game, I feel there's a ripe chance to redeem Tetra Master for competitive play. And besides, the inclusion of multiplayer & the mix of gameplay elements both new & old (from Triple Triad) would practically make it like new.

I can see how Spiritbonding cards might be unnecessary or pointless for many. However, I simply like the idea of giving some credit into the core game... similar to how you can PvP & earn Soldiery. Playing with my Mark Cards, I can earn Allied Seals during my matches where I'm forced to miss a few A Spawns, & so forth. I think it compliments the system well.

Card Desynthesis/Modding & Scalable Cards sound interesting.

I forgot to mention how to obtain cards.

I think some should be purchasable using GC Seals. Perhaps ones like Chocobo's, GC Leaders, Mammets, & etc.

Most would be obtainable via farming mobs. Perhaps 10% droprate on regular world mobs, 25% from unique FATE bosses & A/B marks, & 30% from Raid Bosses & S Marks. Perhaps have it so Primals/Raid Bosses only have a chance of dropping 1 while any other has a chance of dropping per every participant.

Heck, you could make another use out of those Primal Tokens, let Primal Cards be purchased with them. Behemoth & Odin Cards purchasable with their tokens.

And like others mentioned, purchasable weekly Boosters with guaranteed Uncommon & chance for Rare.

tl;dr added.

SE, please tell us XIV's Triple Triad won't be identical to the old? It's alright, but Tetra Master was far more fun... this Hybrid build would be untwelve-like.

Your opinion. I much prefer Triple Triad.

It be cool if the just did the TCG format with FF characters on the cards.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

1. my main reason is i want something original i don't want ff8 or ff9 card game. sorta like everyone wants blitzball added, which i am personally against because i would rather get something original and not just something we already seen and had before.

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I'd rather them do a repeat of the card games, cuz i've seen SE failures before. In XI SE put in choco racing an a thing called Prankration (which was like pokemon fights an pokemon snap put together) and both were huge flops, literally nobody did them, cuz they were pretty lame. I'd rather SE go with at least 1 thing they know will work an people will enjoy, then they can get experimental with it an test some new ideas. But if they flop on new ideas right off the bat, then we are stuck with nothing to do still. Now they could add some tweaks to the card games to make them have a new feel an all, but should keep that classic gameplay.

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Originally Posted by skaterger

Your opinion. I much prefer Triple Triad.

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Same here, Triple Triad was much more fun to me. Not to mention Tetra Master even got its own online version (alongside FFXI release) which sunk and shut down for low popularity. If people didn't want to play it back then online, then I doubt it would be any different now. Of course it could easily be said Triple Triad would suffer the same fate, but we already know with Tetra Master.

as fun as Triple Triad was, the Card game I enjoyed the most in the final fantasy games didn't come from a main game at all.... it came from Final Fantasy Fables: Chocobo Tales! the pop up duels were amazing and fun! sure the game might have a younger target age group, but the game was great.

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Originally Posted by Sho86

Same here, Triple Triad was much more fun to me. Not to mention Tetra Master even got its own online version (alongside FFXI release) which sunk and shut down for low popularity. If people didn't want to play it back then online, then I doubt it would be any different now. Of course it could easily be said Triple Triad would suffer the same fate, but we already know with Tetra Master.

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That's because it was a totally separate game that most people didn't feel justified the extra subscription to play (I enjoyed it though, as it was a good time waster when I was bored but couldn't be bothered logging into FFXI). Triple Triad in FFVIII though was let down by those stupid rules that would handicap play (especially 'Random' - I lost so many rare cards due to that damn rule).

And the mathematical requirement for play was also annoying - having to calculate the resulting sums when placing cards in my head while playing just made it such a chore - at least Tetra Master that was done for you based on dice rolls (but then I also loved FFIX more than FFVIII so I guess that made me biased anyway :p).

Ah well, as long as the FFXIV version doesn't include the stupid rules, I'm all for this. :)

See, the rules were what made Triple Triad interesting... however, they were also it's downfall. Either too convoluted or needlessly complex (Wall was stupid imo).

Triple Triad could be related to Chess, or once you got into deep-meta it really just turned into Tic Tac Toe due to imbalances.

Tetra Master ultimately had way more depth but the RNG mechanic killed it.

If you guys read the OP, a hybrid of the two would be the ultimate card game for FF.

As long as it has player versus player content I'll be happy.

Honestly, some incredible suggestions here.

I hope SE looks at this.

I especially like the idea of Card Bonding, give us a reason to go out into the world & farm specific Mobs for their cards or run those old Dungeons for the Boss Cards!

Especially that chance for an HQ Card, this could get really exciting.

Yeah I hope they implement some good changes from traditional Triple Triad because the Meta was very broken.

I personally enjoyed Triad far more... maybe its because I simply enjoyed FF8 far more as it was my first introduction into the FF series.

Regardless, I do like the idea of spirit bonding/converting cards, because you could do that in FF8(Convert, anyway). I also think there should be a tournament style where rules are set, but also a "with friends" kind of way that you set the rules yourself. Also, tournaments in game would be nice, could even just be set as a Duty finder type deal, find 8 people, 4 groups of 2 fight, then 2 groups, then finals... I wonder how they'll handle getting rare/more powerful cards?

Will I be able to go into the wild and "Card" enemies through an ability like in FF8? Can i win them through NPC battles in the gold saucer :o?

They'd have to try really hard to f**k this up for me.

One thing I really hope for is that you aren't restricted to playing in a specific instance. It would be cool if I could go up to someone, and have a right-click option to start a card game. It would be even better if you could host tournaments at your personal house and set the rules/rewards!

I would only like to add to this by saying I hope they have the card game linked to their mobile device support. I would love to be able to enter a queue on my phone while i'm on lunch break at work, have a match or two, then go about my day. I would really love to see more of this with FFXIV. Mobile device extras that enhance the ingame experience. Maybe part of raising a chocobo would be to have the chick like a tamagotchi on your phone where you feed it, clean up after it and play with it to enhance its stats for chocobo racing (make these features avaliable in game as well for those who don't have the mobile device to do it.)

Something I hope the dev team explores in the future. Havent seen any further work on the current libra eorzea or other mobile device features they spoke about a long time ago. Please don't miss this chance to keep players involved and hooked on your game when they are not able to log in on their system. It is something I have not seen any other MMO do and you could be pioneers in this. GO SE!

FF9's cardgame was weak in that it sucked and didn't provide benefit to any game content what so ever.

^the RNG definitely killed it but looking at the core of what they were going for... it had a lot going for it.

The diagonals, grid-blocks, stat-types... ability to level cards & so forth.

Hence why I think a fusion of the two is the ultimate way to go.

But they settled on Triple Triad so I at least hope they glean some inspiration from my ideas such as Card Conversion, Collector's Level, & New Rules.

Triple Triad is better, we do not need 4x4 grid, honestly.

3x3 grid is better and is not overly complicated, because Triple Triad is not suppose to be overly complicated.

I'm okay keeping with a 3x3 Grid, I just hope they're aware of how dull/imbalanced/messy the Meta was for multiplayer Triple Triad online & learn from it...

The gameplay became so dull b/c there was an optimal set that all the Top-Ranked players utilized, and if you didn't use that set you were gimp.

Kind of like Tic-Tac-Toe, a person knowing the sure win move for every opponent move... it boiled down to being this lame.

Even though we know now we're not getting Tetra Master.

And are rather getting Triple Triad...

I still love your critique/suggestions which apply to Triple Triad & think SE should read carefully.

Card Bonding, Collector's Level, & Rule Changes especially.

I liked TT better, but one thing I liked from TM was the random chance that your card would level up a stat when used, from P/M to X to A, or actually one of the stats +1.
Personally I'd love it if that element was incorporated