Please make Samurai the next Tank class.

First I would like to introduce the why Samurai would be the perfect fit as the next tank class. I wont try to make this too long and if you have any suggestions or ideas please feel free to post.

Current Tanks (I won't go into too much details about the current classes as you are all probably familiar with how the two function).

Paladin - Mitigation Tank with average AoE skills and generous support skills (Cover, Tempered Will, StoneSkin (Xclass), Cure (Xclass), Protect (Xclass) etc).

Warrior - More active/micromanaged based Tank with exceptional AoE, large health pool, good damage dealing potential for a tank. Warriors can be more prone to spike damage unless you manage defensive cooldowns well and have good timing.

Looking at two current tank classes we have to think how can a third tank fill the roster without overshadowing the current tank(s) in the game? Easily, by implementing an evasion/counter-attack tank such as the Samurai.

Looking at two current tank classes we have to think how can a third tank fill the roster without overshadowing the current tank(s) in the game? Easily, by implementing an evasion/counter-attack tank such as the Samurai.

Kamae (構え?) is a Japanese term used in martial arts and traditional theater. It translates approximately to "posture". The Kanji of this word means "base".

Sword Oath like toggle ability for Samurai:
Jōdan-no-kamae the sword is raised above the head with the tip (kissaki) pointing back and the blade facing up, in readiness to strike.[1] It is the most aggressive stance of the five.

The Samurai will excel in Parry and Dodge and use counter-attacks that are proc based and it fits in on how they function per Chūdan-no-kamae (中段の構え:ちゅうだんのかまえ?), Chūdan-no-kamae translates to "middle-level posture." It provides a balance between attacking and defensive techniques.

The Samurai will have a skill called Gedan-no-kamae. Gedan-no-kamae means "lower-level posture." This position is adopted when the sword is held out in front of the body pointing at the waist in kendo, or at the knee or sometimes the ankle in kenjutsu.

It is considered a variant of chūdan-no-kamae and therefore appearing as a defensive posture, but instead it is used to deflect blows and create striking opportunities. This stance is used as a transition from chūdan-no-kamae to a tsuki (thrust). It is called the Kamae of Earth (地の構え chi-no-kamae?) in Yagyū. Once you pop this cooldown you can go "Bankai" like a boss!

Samurai Tank in action check it out!
Link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJTD70fpsU8

Evasion tanks wont really work with how most end game mechanics work... Lets look at tank swapping, some of the most hard hitting attacks are ones that require tank swapping (eg. Titan, Ultima, Ifrit, T6)... if a tank could evade those attacks it would be pointless to ever bring a PLD or WAR into those fights. If SE made those attacks always hit then an evasion tank would have to have just as much life as a WAR and if it didn't have the life it would need just as much mitigation skills as a PLD. The other bad part about an evasion tank is RNG, if the RNG is crap (sometimes the case with WARs) then you could end up not evading a couple hits in a row and boom dead. To counter this again the evasion tank would need a large health pool to decrease the chance of RNG killing them just like WAR, or have mitigation skills just like PLD. I am really interested to see what the next tank will be, its just with the current direction of battle mechanics I don't see how an evasion tank could work.

Also, that video has exactly the issue I am talking about... oops the RNG gods didnt let you evade that attack, boom one hit KO.

Full evasion is a foolish way to design tank. Partial evasion is a good way. It can be done.

FFXI Ninja - bad way to design a tank (although wasn't designed to be a tank)
Feral Druid - good way to design a tank

I'd say the best bet on new tank would be DRK, otherwise a magic user like rune fencer or something.

If you want an example, check Gaius van Baelsar's animations. Ground aoe's, magically imbued weapons, charge-like skills, teleporting, could be fun!

nope not goin to work, even in WoW, full dodge tanks rely heavily to RNGs and that if the boss only use physical non magical attacks

Thanks for your comments they are much appreciated. I did not intend the Samurai as a full dodge and parry tank. I stated they will excel in dodge and parry and will have higher dodge and parry than the other two tanks, but still have a good base mitigation for tanking purposes. Samurai tanks will be more proficient at dodge and parry to trigger their counter attacks, counter attacks similar to shield swipe, WoW Warrior Revenge, etc. Sorry for the confusion and thank you again for your input. Also Samurai will still have their base enmity builder and other skills. The counter attack system is just to make them unique and not feel like your playing a Warrior or Paladin re-skinned.

If the Samurai were to be wearing any decent amount of armor, partial evasion would seem plenty. And to be honest, I kind of wish that was already in the game. As it stands, only a tower shield can mitigate a full third of an attack (though looking like it can do quite a bit more than that) while parries and bucklers just take (though important) chips of the damage. It feels weird that dodge then jumps to a guaranteed 100% mitigation. If you sidestep such that a blade skims down your pauldron, even if technically "hit", you'd only be taking some 10% of the force of the blow. I feel like that should still be a 'dodge', more or less. Granted, the more armor you have, the harder it's going to be to fully dodge, but it's still a hell of a lot better than risking a real hit, and that could even perhaps come as a compromise somewhere along the line, and can stand as the difference between a Monk popping Featherfoot and standing without a care in sparse two-shot mechanics and a Samurai measuring out his Featherfoot CD, should he even have access to it.

The other alternative, the same one I bring up every time this comes into discussion, sadly, is to embed mechanics into the evasion types themselves, such that each (dodge, parry, and block) can wear down and recharge, can possibly have a higher chance against hits that would kill you at cost of dodge chance thereafter, and carry whatever other mechanics befit their mitigation type (parry being involved with whatever bladework you're doing, for example). I also don't feel like it should be impossible to both parry and partial dodge the same attack.

I feel like as a Paladin I'd be pacing out my dodges behind a shield of blocks, except where I need to save those for a critical period, and measuring out my attack pace where able to any mechanics that might influence parry chance. As a Warrior, that shield wall would be gone, but I could use strong attacks to affect parry, while having dodges ready to go. As Samurai, my priority would be to sort of sync up those parries to cover for or match my remaining dodge rating.

Not to be *that* guy that compares FFXIV to FFXI, but back in FFXI SAM had abilities that combined evasion with parry/riposte (Third Eye + Seigan) which worked well, and I think could be replicated quite well here. Throw in LNC as a subjob prerequisite for Keen Flurry and Invigorate, and it could really rock.

Personally I was fond of making SAM a parry tank getting most of it's mitigation from parry and abilities that boosted parry for a short while.

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Originally Posted by Lothar808

Evasion tanks wont really work with how most end game mechanics work... the RNG gods didnt let you evade that attack, boom one hit KO.

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I think a tank that focuses mostly on evasion could work like this... While it would get hit harder than other tanks when it fails to evade, its main damage mitigation move could have a very short cooldown duration. Thus the move needed to significantly reduce damage received would always be available for powerful enemy attacks that would otherwise kill you, but there is added responsibility on the player to know the enemy and be reactionary so the timing is correct.

lets see 2 handed katana is very very very practical to parrying compared to 2handed axe or 1 handed sword in real life, if there's a way SAM could make it as tank, it will based on the disruptive (debuffing target) / counter (OP skills can only activated if evasion/block/parry succeeds) tank (more RNG Dependant) spectrum as opposed to conservative mitigation tanking aka PLD and offensive tanking aka WAR

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Originally Posted by Kaonis

Personally I was fond of making SAM a parry tank getting most of it's mitigation from parry and abilities that boosted parry for a short while.

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Seeing how parries work in this game, this would be an appropriate route to take. I'd personally like to see something like parry focus and something else to help mitigate SAM's lack of a shield like PLD or damage shields like WAR. I've mentioned the stagger mechanic from WoW's monk class before, and I still think it would nicely fit SAM.

I love the idea of SAM as a counter/parry/partial evasion tank.
But it would suck if the skills and survivability of the class were particularly reliant on the parry secondary. Gearing would suck, because parry would become essential.

Basically, keep the primary tanking mechanic in the stance/skills area. Don't have more than one parry proc skill. Use skills/buffs to create automatic parries that don't rely on the RNG. Have the stance do minor constant mitigation and some % for partial evasion.

If you really want it to be based on parry you need it to be able to make up for the damage potential lost to required gear. Which, I think, becomes very hard to balance.

I don't care about the specifics but a Sam tank will own and I will play it

I like the idea as well, especially when I think of Brew Master monks. The way I see it, SAM could prioritize parry or crit as secondary stats.

High crit rate build: each critical AA and skill would add a stack to be used with some CD. The CD would be used to increase evasion rate by some %, with a limit of 60% increased evasion chance.

High parry build: each parry would add to some other CD, or the same, that would also increase evasion by max of 60% evasion rate.

You would also need DR CD's similar to WAR, but the focused would be evasion. Then, gearing options could become very interesting.
"Do I go higher crit rate, parry, or a combo of both?"

Or, SAM could have a base evasion rate of 20%, + X% increased Defence. Some base value equal to shield oath 20% DR, or WAR 25% hp+ 20% extra heals received. Then the CD's would increase evasion rate by variable %'s.
AA Crits CD for + 40%. Parry CD + 20%, Crit skill for + 30%.

Just posting to say...

GO BRONCOS!!!

An evasion tank is very hard to balance; you have to design a class around the idea that since they flat out dodge attacks, they will probably have less defense against hits. If RNGeesus decides to forsake you, you could see back to back hits that hurt. Moreover, as of current game mechanics, I believe parry is a very subpar stat. Parry tank is neat, but it’s kind of the same concept as a pally, mitigate damage in some form. The counter concept is actually cool, but does the counter only work on parry, dodges, or hits, or a combination of them? Perhaps all of them? If so, why bother with counter moves? Just allow me the option to use a weaponskill to smack them. If not, the Im’m asking the player to know exactly which counter needs to be pressed based on mitigation, or lack thereof, preformed. On top of which, someone said a katana was a great parrying weapon unlike the pally sword or axe. I'd point out that isn't really true. Musashi's two sword style has the shorter blade acting as the defensive weapon, while the longer as the offensive. It's not solidly set in stone, but that’s the general concept.

This part is slightly opinionated, so bear with me. I do know samurai didn’t believe in shields. There is tons of lore and myth on the idea that katanas were souls, and one was to cut with their soul. Part of training, and still utilized today, is one's Ki. In combat you are to force your warrior’s spirit, or Ki, out to overpower your foe. It’s different in areas, but it doesn’t come off as a defensive concept. That’s not to give the idea that samurai were offense > defense, but the focus emphasizes to defeat the foe, not to hold out against them. Another thing, samurai armor was not the strongest created. It was good, no doubt, but it's not like the steel of full plate which was far more protective.

Point is, samurai seems to me a class about defeating their foe with honed strikes, and a katana, or long sword, designed to utilize both hands for maximum power. Then, there is also the fact that in Final Fantasy, samurai classes have almost always had a focus on damage dealing, with extras on the side. Now, that isn’t to say SE couldn’t try something new, look at what they did with sticking Bard onto the Archer class, but I don’t think experimenting with SAM as a Tank would be a good fit. I could see DRK being more plausible as a tank, though really I’d like to see just a straight up Knight class, one that would focus on the break moves from various FF Lore, like Armor Break, Mind Break, etc etc.

So, in the end, I would prefer to see SAM as a damage dealing class because that sticks truer to the heart of what a Samurai is. It’s personal opinion of course, but that’s my two cents

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Originally Posted by Rbstr

I love the idea of SAM as a counter/parry/partial evasion tank.
But it would suck if the skills and survivability of the class were particularly reliant on the parry secondary. Gearing would suck, because parry would become essential.

Basically, keep the primary tanking mechanic in the stance/skills area. Don't have more than one parry proc skill. Use skills/buffs to create automatic parries that don't rely on the RNG. Have the stance do minor constant mitigation and some % for partial evasion.

If you really want it to be based on parry you need it to be able to make up for the damage potential lost to required gear. Which, I think, becomes very hard to balance.

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Well some ideas I had for SAM as a parry tank would be basing the parry more off of abilities/tank stance rather than the actual stat. So for example they enter their tank stance and they get say a +20% chance to parry and maybe a small % increase to how much damage they can deflect with a parry to try and be about the same amount of mitigation as WAR's +healing and PLD's damage reduction. Then give them CD's like LNC's keen flurry, and a big ability (Deflect? Third Eye?) that 100% parries the next non-auto-attack as their holmgang-esque big saving move.

I think there's a number of ways to do it without needing to rely on the parry substat though.

bear in mind though there's never been existed a RNG MAGICAL INVULNERABLE ARMOR tank class which can do the same against heavy magic damage fights

I have yet to see this concept for an evasion tank: do a series of abilities which allows the player to do X (X being an evasive move). Like WAR has wrath now, a SAM can have something which if he has 2 (or whatever would be balanced), he can evade. This is just a very raw concept, but I think SE could manage to pull this one off.

Let's not forget thy might change the whole job system in order to have hybrid jobs and implement other jobs much easier.

And yes, I just want SAM in this game, DPS or or Tank, I don't really care about that as long as it works good wich the other jobs.

Samurai was the only reason I put up with FFXI's clunky interface and launcher. The animations alone...

Want that so bad in FFXIV.

Yep, this is something I was thinking along the lines of. Much how archer/bard is a proc based dps, the samurai would base damage mitigation and evasion stacks. And depending on the stance, could also have a counterattack proc which has an additional chance to chain into more powerful slash if proc\\\\'d additionally based on crit chance or something, maybe like this:
Each successful evasion procs an ability "be like water" which increases physical and magical damages capping at 30%
Stacks of water can be used up to heal the characters health or tp or mp. I\\\\'m tired now.

Counterattack: cast time instant, recast 2.5. does an attack after a successful evasion/parry much like the shield bash skill for say 100 or 130
Enhanced counterattack (chained combo) allows an additional chance to counterattacking again at a decreased chance of 30% - 10% for 200 - 300 damage repectively
Then again this sounds more damage dealing but should they implement hybrid rolls a samurai could fill the dps/tank/debuffer roll very well

It's not really Final Fantasy, but the Swordmaster in Bravely Default can be an interesting concept.
Active counters, for several types of attacks.

You could do combos that each end in a short counterstance for one type of attack (Auto, Physical skill, Spell, etc...) while reducing damage from that type of damage.
You'd have to time your combo preparing for the incoming attack.
I'd really like preparing a big counter for each Death Sentence :D

I'm still hoping that however SAM is brought into this game, they give it Kiai's. Those roars are integral to the Samurai, and could make the class standout from the other Melee's.