When Spawn Killing Gets Out of Control

I've had two Frontlines tonight which have reminded me of a very annoying issue with the design.

I am talking about spawn killing. This is when a large group of players camp an enemy spawn area and kill anyone that emerges. You'll always get the occasional skirmish outside spawns of course. But when a whole alliance are going out of their way to do it, something needs to be done to prevent them.

On one run just now, we had the entire alliance of Immortal Flames camping right outside the Maelstrom's spawn. As soon as anyone emerged, they got blasted to hell. This happened for nearly eight minutes until people finally managed to make progress and break out, allowing the alliance to pick the enemy off one by one. I took the liberty of stopping to count how many Flames were there after my sixth death and I counted 23. It goes without saying that the Maelstrom controlled zero flags for the whole duration, as well as the Flames, although they occasionally recaptured the Maelstrom outpost off the Adders.

I expect the Adders were rubbing their hands with delight because they won by nearly 900 points.

The Flames weren't interested at all in flags or winning. They just brought their entire alliance to the Maelstrom spawn to annihilate anyone who appeared. Asides from this being terribly unsporting, it made this one of the least enjoyable Frontlines I've participated in. We came last, because we couldn't even amass points by killing enemies. It was just a massacre until the alliance clued up and realised what was happening and to wait inside the spawn until everyone was buffed and ready.

I'm not sure what to suggest to fix this with the way the Frontlines arena is currently designed. Perhaps adding some kind of 'hot zone' that begins to slowly kill people (with increasing severity) if they spend too much time near an enemy spawn? Either way, I hope something can be done to fix this. It happened a few times but on a lower scale and I shrugged it off as poor sportsmanship. Perhaps we could have an official response on whether you deem spawn killing a reportable offense? If so, we could report any instances of this occurring on such a large scale.

This instance today took it to a whole new level of frustrating. :(

Yeah..i've had that happen a few times myself. Except it was the adders camping the maelstorm. It's quite frustrating.

I've had this happen to me once, although it was Maelstrom camping Flames spawn point.

There was a mechanic in a couple other online games I've played where they placed NPC's around that would chase/kill off anyone that tried to get too close to their base. I think that'd fix this problem. Even if they do camp just before said NPC's, at least now people can run backwards towards the NPC's for protection while still being able to attack with ranged skills.

Happens in many mmos. However the problem is with Frontlines' home base design. The problem with the home bases is its a one way out design which causes a bottleneck or "turtle". Players have one way to exit. I don't see why SE didn't think about this from jump. It's so obvious and was my immediate concern with Frontlines on my first day of playing it. I'm just surprised it took this long for spawn killing to start. To resolve it, there just needs to be one of two things, an additional exit from the home base and/or the more practical and logical thing (and probably cheaper ofr SE which doesn't involve redesigning the home bases) of putting NPC's that guard the entrance so any enemy player who try to camp it are immediately plowed down by say lvl 100 Maelstrom, Adder or Flames guards. Problem solved.

Seems like a fairly large problem, but at least it didn't give them the win (which would further encourage this sort of behavior). At least if wasting your time doing this means another team is taking all the bases and winning it should cut down on the motivation to camp spawns. Still, fixing it would be pretty simple.

its a non-issue imo. sure you won't win but neither will they. it basically requires 16+ people to decide they would rather kill then actually win

Spawn camping in a nutshell

Spawn Camping:

Do you agree to forfeit 1st place?

Yes/No

Well as soon as teams realize it equals 2nd place at best, they won't do it often and it'll become a non-issue. Mostly it just sounds like a 'we're pissed off' issue, that will occasionally happen but I don't forsee any changes being needed.

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Originally Posted by jlewiss

its a non-issue imo. sure you won't win but neither will they. it basically requires 16+ people to decide they would rather kill then actually win

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Of course it's an issue... It stopped 24 people from the Maelstrom having any kind of a good game and probably left a lot of them feeling peeved. Griefing on a mass scale.

I've been in a situation where our alliance, having captured the outer outpost and having no contention or struggle from the competition, continued to push forward toward their spawn. We also realised we were behind with no chance to win, and people seem more interested in killing (we were bored waiting at the flag). This did indeed mean the other GC, was able to capture 4-5 of the flag points.

There is a downside to this activity (and not an imbalanced winning strategy), so I don't think it warrants a change. Players will just do what they want depending on how they feel in the situation. It is equally unsatisfying when the other GC just decides to not participate or put up a fight.

I camped the Flames spawn with my alliance C once, because they were just so damn bad for some reason. We (Maelstrom) controlled half the map and were ahead in points, so it seemed like a good idea to keep the Flames contained, rather than letting them run around and steal undefended flags.
I have no idea how it happened that they were so weak, though, this only happened in a single Frontline game of mine.

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Originally Posted by SeleneVenizelos

Of course it's an issue... It stopped 24 people from the Maelstrom having any kind of a good game and probably left a lot of them feeling peeved. Griefing on a mass scale.

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lol are you really going to comment on people getting annoyed in pvp? any game since the history of games where one person wins and one person loses someone is going to end up peeved. also if you work on the assumption that your gc as well as there gc has at best 24 people you just get the whole alliance together and push through them. if you guys still couldn't win then they wer ejust simply better then you and you have to deal with it and move on.

Not sure, but couldn't your team gather in the homebase and then break the siege?

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Originally Posted by jlewiss

lol are you really going to comment on people getting annoyed in pvp? any game since the history of games where one person wins and one person loses someone is going to end up peeved. also if you work on the assumption that your gc as well as there gc has at best 24 people you just get the whole alliance together and push through them. if you guys still couldn't win then they wer ejust simply better then you and you have to deal with it and move on.

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There is an enormous difference between general irritation at PvP mechanics and being annoyed at an entire alliance of 24 people going out of their way to grief you. I expect to get a little riled doing PvP but this is in a whole different category. That you would attempt to compare the two perplexes me.

And whether we died or not had nothing to do with skill. The alliance were dispersed at their various posts around the map. For the first five minutes it was people returning, not aware of what was going on and emerging from spawn to be annihilated. In my OP it states that after awhile we managed to organise ourselves and attack as an alliance to wipe the Flames out, which was no easy task and it's commendable that we managed to rally to attempt it, let alone succeed. Until that time, it was a massacre for anyone who walked outside. What the Flames were doing was nothing to do with skill or being better than us.

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Originally Posted by Cuervo78

Not sure, but couldn't your team gather in the homebase and then break the siege?

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Perhaps you should read the OP before replying?

well, I read it and it sounded as if they left the starting point in small groups, sorry if i misunderstood that part.

Never tried it, but I thought entering a spawn zone from the outside was not possible. So what hinders the people to wait there for a time and get out as a group? Then it is one alliance against the other

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Originally Posted by Cuervo78

well, I read it and it sounded as if they left the starting point in small groups, sorry if i misunderstood that part.

Never tried it, but I thought entering a spawn zone from the outside was not possible. So what hinders the people to wait there for a time and get out as a group? Then it is one alliance against the other

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It took a few minutes for people to realise that we had every Immortal Flame right outside the doorstep. You occasionally get people near the spawn so people just assumed it was a small bunch and rushed out to help people fighting, not realising that it was actually the entire Flames contingent waiting to butcher people. It was a few minutes before anyone said it in Alliance chat and it took a few more minutes to get people to realise that going outside was suicide. Not to mention, there were several of the Maelstrom scattered around the map at various flags who didn't return to spawn to join the break out until they had died. This took a long time for some of them.

It's very easy to say, "Why didn't you just break out and kill them?" but come on, be realistic. This is Frontlines we're talking about. People rarely listen to instructions and no matter how many times people were saying "Don't go outside, you'll die!", people kept going outside. The co-ordination required that you are hinting at is massive and something that is usually beyond any pick up party. That we managed to break out at all is nothing short of miraculous.

I don't see it as an issue unless it become a consistent meta and you see it every other game. You ever had those games where two other GC gang up on your GC and it became a 24 vs 48 throughout the entire match? Yea it's kinda like that. The smarter GC will stay capped at 3~4 flags for 1st while the accomplice get 2nd, and your gc get pounded to 3rd place while your alliance get massacred at your outpost without even spawn camping.

I don't think spawn camping should be taken out altogether. A slight nerf would be ok but it's a good way to keep in check the enemy and push your team to 2nd or 1st place. It's a high risk/high reward thing. If you fail at it, you wipe, and the enemy push you back to your own outpost and you'll probably end up with 1 or 2 cap at best.

Also, like you said, people wised up and waited at the base until there is enough to push the spawn camper out. That right there is all you need to do the next time. Call out in alliance chat EARLY and let people know what to do. Frontline is still new and there is a lot of pvp newbies in this game that can get unraveled by the slightest trick you play on them. Just stay calm and talk it out with people in other alliance and things will be fine.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

I camped the Flames spawn with my alliance C once, because they were just so damn bad for some reason. We (Maelstrom) controlled half the map and were ahead in points, so it seemed like a good idea to keep the Flames contained, rather than letting them run around and steal undefended flags.
I have no idea how it happened that they were so weak, though, this only happened in a single Frontline game of mine.

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I can probably answer this. As a Flame, about half of the time I enter, we are always missing somewhere between 4-12 members. By the time these unfortunate slots get filled with people who want to have fun, everything's already in utter chaos since we can't even do basic strategy. By the time every slot is re-filled, we are already down by a 200-600 point lead, no one in the right spots, and arguments / f-bombs being thrown back and forth at other Flames members.

That's just a Frontlines issue in general. It's not specific to any company.

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Originally Posted by Skeet

snip

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When you know that your team is behind by that much for whatever reason and probably can't even take 2nd place, just try to rally your own party together and team fight somewhere reasonable. People tend to be satisfied with having people back them up over being scattered ontop of ranking 3rd.

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Originally Posted by Namasu

When you know that your team is behind by that much for whatever reason and probably can't even take 2nd place, just try to rally your own party together and team fight somewhere reasonable. People tend to be satisfied with having people back them up over being scattered ontop of ranking 3rd.

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If you're from the Flames, you would know that trying to get some order and control in people, who already deemed themselves as last place, will lead to people telling you to "stfu" and then proceed to everyone doing whatever the hell they want. (This is in the case of 8-12 people missing)

The Flames has A LOT of very immature kids in their GC sadly =\

They don't win by doing this.
If anybody is naive enough to die more than once to spawn camping, they need to get a clue.
I mean, assemble a force and drive them out?

You people should have played ultima online or eve!

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Originally Posted by SeleneVenizelos

I've had two Frontlines tonight which have reminded me of a very annoying issue with the design.

I am talking about spawn killing. This is when a large group of players camp an enemy spawn area and kill anyone that emerges. You'll always get the occasional skirmish outside spawns of course. But when a whole alliance are going out of their way to do it, something needs to be done to prevent them.
On one run just now, we had the entire alliance of Immortal Flames camping right outside the Maelstrom's spawn. As soon as anyone emerged, they got blasted to hell. This happened for nearly eight minutes until people finally managed to make progress and break out, allowing the alliance to pick the enemy off one by one. I took the liberty of stopping to count how many Flames were there after my sixth death and I counted 23. It goes without saying that the Maelstrom controlled zero flags for the whole duration, as well as the Flames, although they occasionally recaptured the Maelstrom outpost off the Adders.

I expect the Adders were rubbing their hands with delight because they won by nearly 900 points.

The Flames weren't interested at all in flags or winning. They just brought their entire alliance to the Maelstrom spawn to annihilate anyone who appeared. Asides from this being terribly unsporting, it made this one of the least enjoyable Frontlines I've participated in. We came last, because we couldn't even amass points by killing enemies. It was just a massacre until the alliance clued up and realised what was happening and to wait inside the spawn until everyone was buffed and ready.


This instance today took it to a whole new level of frustrating. :(

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PVP happened in PVP.

On Primal I've only been in 2 games where Flames was already in 3rd place and a few of their tards decided to camp our Maelstrom base apparently since they were losing anyways; they didn't have anything to lose so why not. Never seen Adders do it. The times I have seen it happen to Maelstrom ppl call out base camping and we run in to kill them. We don't tolerate that childish crap. Til sea swallows all.

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Originally Posted by SeleneVenizelos

I've had two Frontlines tonight which have reminded me of a very annoying issue with the design.

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It is not the design, it is the fact that Malestorm has been dominating for a while. It becomes a trend that the people will always attempt to slow down Malestorm. This is an very effective strategy because Malestorm is usually expand way too fast and trying to hold too many nodes at the same time. This is the part of the game.

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Originally Posted by Divinemight

It is not the design, it is the fact that Malestorm has been dominating for a while. It becomes a trend that the people will always attempt to slow down Malestorm.

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Not on my data centre. This week: 23 played, 3 wins, 4 second, 16 last.

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Originally Posted by Madeiner

They don't win by doing this.
If anybody is naive enough to die more than once to spawn camping, they need to get a clue.
I mean, assemble a force and drive them out?

You people should have played ultima online or eve!

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I'd quote myself saying, for the third time, to read the OP before replying but I just can't be arsed anymore.

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Originally Posted by SeleneVenizelos

Not on my data centre. This week: 23 played, 3 wins, 4 second, 16 last.

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You have provided an example to support my statement. Malestorm has been winning for a while that now both Immortal Flames and Twin Adders will try to shut down Malestorm first.

They should just do what RO did and have a powerful NPC guardian at spawn locations that 1-shots anyone who gets within X yalms of it.

I'm just curious why it's 'bad' if they send their entire alliance to 'spawn camp' you, but NOT bad if they send their entire alliance anywhere else on the map to play? If SE comes in and alters the spawn points so that there is an NPC or something that smites opposing teams from your doorway, then they will just mass-gather when they want vengance somewhere else....like on your OP. You're just frustrated because it kept your team from 'doing what you want' ....but from reading later posts this also happened because your /alliance chat wasn't giving the proper information out right away and people didn't come assist soon enough. As you said, people only thought it was a couple flames around the base originally and not too much to worry about....So you didn't lose because they 'spawn camped' you. Your side lost because you didn't communicate and work together quickly and effectively enough.

Still, the risk/reward of spawn camping never works out in the 'campers' favor...they are cementing a loss for themselves in doing it. Which means, the game already discourages it, and this is why you seldom see it as part of a 'winning' strategy. IF/WHEN you see it, it's because one team decided 'Lets get the Maelstrom!' and it's done out of vengance....basically, they'd rather see you lose than that they personally win....and if this is how they do it so be it. But again, since the goal is for your team to win, very few will dedicate the resources to a mass-scale spawn camp.

So again, really sounds like you're just whining that one team shut you down effectively in one match, making it hard on your team....but they shut themselves down too to do it. Now, if there's ever a 'spawn camp' strat that works and can earn a first place most of the time, then SE should make adjustments.

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Originally Posted by Skeet

There was a mechanic in a couple other online games I've played where they placed NPC's around that would chase/kill off anyone that tried to get too close to their base. I think that'd fix this problem. Even if they do camp just before said NPC's, at least now people can run backwards towards the NPC's for protection while still being able to attack with ranged skills.

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This seems like it would be a solid fix for the problem.

I'm hoping people will spawn camp less.
If it demoralizes players to not queueing up for Frontlines, this just screws all of us who play Frontlines. These 60+ min queues are already nuts (in progress checked), please don't make them worse.

Watching groups decide they want to make this person be third, and swap getting first and second takes the wind out of the sails for those getting hammered on and the spirit of competition.

Seeing 2 colors ignore each other or spawn camp as meta should not be acceptable even if it ends up being a losing strategy for the camper. The whole point is win trading is possibly in the works. Queuing as large groups together can help group the perpetrators, such as a certain pvpque add-on incident that let fully organized groups mostly roflstomp randoms.

Its possible to zerg towards a specific GC for vengeance by chance, but it usually breaks up; watching a group of 30+ people camp 1 GC while the rest of the map is split 5/1/0 camps then become 6/0/0 and cements the targeted GC as a loser at 1600/200/100 point spread reeks of foul play

TLDR; This issue is bigger than just spawn camping.

Sorry but how did it took so long to break out? their spawn point is miles away and yours is well, your standing on it.
Should not taken more then a minute to figure out to attack together and then a minute to break out.

I actually think there should be NPC guards in front of the spawn point on the ground. These guards should be tough (at least ST trash levels of strength) and worth a fair amount of points, but even a small handful of players acting in concert with them should be strong enough to force spawn campers out. Give them at least one healer NPC too, one that loves to spam Cure IIIs on nearby players.

Had this happen to me recently, and it was starting to be obvious when it had been happening for more than a week. People complain that our good players changed GC's but I think it's because Maelstrom had been on a winning streak first, so that first impression turned into a melded strat for Adders and Flames: To take down Storms. At one point of my pvp games, I noticed we were being spawn camped and saw not just one side, but both Adders and Flames working together to just spawn camp Storms. Out or spite? As a strat? Maybe, maybe not, but even when we are no longer on the top, the other two GC's still don't focus on each other to fight for first either, just bring down Storms.

What can we do to prevent spawn camps? PUT A TURRET! Lol j/k.