Can someone please explain this . . .

I just had an argument with a tank friend who has a low level gladiator that tries saying he has never had a black mage pull from him and says all that tells him is I'm a bad tank if black mages pull frequently. I call BS because it's a common known fact in this game that even a level synced black mage can pull aggro from a gladiator pretty easily if they're doing optimum dps rotation regardless of how good that gladiator is unless the black mage eases up a bit. I know this from experience and it's even mentioned in pro tank guides from level 50 tanks that are good at their job that mentioned what was what through the leveling process. The conversation started when I mentioned how tanks will probably be what I level last because I hate playing tug of war with black mage on aggro. Back when this was happening I even asked on the forums mentioning my rotation and they said I was doing nothing wrong and that that's going to happen regardless. Technically either my tank friend is lying, or the black mage he was with was undergeared, less than optimal dps rotation, or knew what he was doing and eased up on dps. So is he right that it's possible to always keep aggro against a black mage, or was every other tank in the community lying to me with that many bad tanks?

NOTE: I didn't post this in a job role forum since this talks about 2 different roles.

Yes a good blackMage can pull hate off a tank if they are sync and without shield oath.

It's why I used 3 flashes and swap between targets to keep hate, though the answer you want is yes a tank can lose hate to a well geared blackmage.

Even with shield oath later in the game, example brayfox hard mode a black can pull hate with the big spells.

most of the time I use cover on the blackmage and pop my hallowed and keep him alive till they die.

Well, to be fair, a GLD/PLD who is paying attention and alternating their Rage of Halone while timing their Flashes properly shouldn't lose aggro unless the BLM is being overly bursty toward a target not your primary. But, like I said, even in that situation the GLD/PLD should be paying attention and should change targets quickly to prevent loss of aggro.

What happen when you lose aggro to BLM? You panic or get it back instantly?

It's all team effort. A black mage can easily pull aggro early if the first shot was the wrong target. Either the tank didn't mark or the black mage ignored it. It also depends on the party mindset. If you have one dps aoeing and the other focusing single target in a dungeon, the tank will lose aggro to either depending on which approach he choses. If everyone refuses to talk or ask, someone has to give on their own volition. E.g.: I queue as a black mage. I get a paladin that choses to keep doing the classic tab halone combo and flash in between. I can aoe hard and one of the mobs will go after me. If the tank doesnt see what my aoe is capable of and doesn't change his approach, I will have to switch single targeting. If I refuse to switch, I'll just make progress even slower playing pong with the monster and the tank.

But yea, gladiator tanking is harder because of the lack of tools they get. Best you can do is change your tanking style on the go until it works for the party. Like how much you have to spread your combos over multiple enemies, the intervals of your flash (how many flashes at the start, how many flash between halone combos, balancing your mp with riot blade for next pulls, etc). DPS tend to not listen or take the hint from your target markings so you gotta adjust. Unless you're a mrd/war. Overpower works on every dungeon.

I'd argue a bad dps doesn't pay attention to their very visible enmity meters nor gauge their hate output or follow markings nor identify priority targets (with annoying abilities/AoEs) in comparison to the tank's ability to output enmity and manage monster positioning.

Black Mage gets sleep to give their tanks and healers more time. Black Mages can stand near the tank - most don't! Many instead move out of a tank's range and actively hamper their ability to tank.

Just food for thought.

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Originally Posted by Adler

What happen when you lose aggro to BLM? You panic or get it back instantly?

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I get it back. The argument wasn't about being unable to pull aggro back. It was about losing aggro to a black mage regardless of how long it was lost, but there was one case where I could not get it back period using flash and aggro skills/multipliers. It should also be noted neither of us have Rage of Halone yet.

In Endgame content, my main is now a i104 BLM, and when I pull of a Double or Triple Flare and 3+ Mobs combined with Raging Strikes, the PLD should make sure he depleted his full Mana Pool, or else, Healer should know i get squished ^^

In pre-50 the BLM is not AS dangerous to pull of hate, as the optimal rotation isnt available yet... most problems are tanks which are not equiped for that dungeon, as Tanks usually should have the best Gear of all to make his life easier...

In pre-50 DDs should be aware of this, and should watch the aggro bar for themselfes...

I'm PS4 player and I don't have space for mark numbers in hotbar nor have I fingers fast enough to set them in the middle of a fight so I just tank without marking and switch targets constantly trying to keep aggro on all targets at the same time. I think as the one blm mentioned before - players able to deal massive damage usually are capable to notice what tank can and can't do and adapt.
I have had dungeons where whole run both dps will always attack fifferent targets but those usually are brain dead people that can't do enough damage for me to lose aggro. Smart and skilled, the truly powerful dps just quickly notice that tank can't keep aggro and adapt to tank playstile very fast.

It is a two way street. Bad dps will not watch their hate generation, specially in the beginning. Bad tank wont maintain hate generation once the fight carries on.

Recently had a Garuda EX fight where a healer started blowing out a medica II and then blaming my shield lob as not generating enough hate before I could even get into position/do any real hate generator (literally first 15 seconds of the fight). After name calling (me) I just told them good luck finding another tank replacement and left- having waited for a tank replacement before.. I almost felt bad. Anyway I won the fight with the next group lol.


I see you are level 23, you should have provoke. That can help next time. Just keep in mind that provoke puts you at the top of the hate list with 1 extra point, so you have to do something very soon after using it or you will just go back down again.

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Originally Posted by Adler

I'm PS4 player and I don't have space for mark numbers in hotbar nor have I fingers fast enough to set them in the middle of a fight so I just tank without marking and switch targets constantly trying to keep aggro on all targets at the same time.

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You can just use a mark macro and even attach it to lob if you want to. I use a controller and I have enough space on my cross bar for separate lob and mark buttons.

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/mk Attack1 <t>
/ac "Target Forward"
/mk Attack2 <t>
/target <attack1>

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This is what I use. I only use up to 2 marks because anything past 3 mobs, I would want my party to start using aoe. 3rd mark is unneeded because that'll be the last mob to be alive so that's obvious enough. This macro would mark my current target, quickly select the next target and mark it as 2 and then quickly return to my first target as I run it to lob. If the 2nd target needs to be a specific one, I can just mark it as number 1 with the same macro as the first target dies.

1. There are 3 separate aggro meters, if a DPS pulls aggro it's their own damn fault.
2. Tell the BLM to get and use Quelling Strikes.

That said GLA is awful at lower levels, just keep on at it til you get your Halone combo

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Originally Posted by h0tNstilettos

I call BS because it's a common known fact in this game that even a level synced black mage can pull aggro from a gladiator pretty easily if they're doing optimum dps rotation regardless of how good that gladiator is unless the black mage eases up a bit.

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"Optimal DPS rotation". That's your problem right there.

Flash more and make sure you're using your enmity generating combos, not just what does the most damage. Prioritizing the damage coming from your teammates will more than bridge the gap of damage lost from you yourself focusing on emnjty.

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Originally Posted by Hybris-Maenad

"Optimal DPS rotation". That's your problem right there.

Flash more and make sure you're using your enmity generating combos, not just what does the most damage. Prioritizing the damage coming from your teammates will more than bridge the gap of damage lost from you yourself focusing on emnjty.

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hes saying the blm is using optimum dps rotation. BLM are a PAIN int he low levels before defiance/shield oath and still dangerous past that. On my ilv94 war I sometimes find myself having to spam butchers block combo exclusively to keep aggro single target, conversely I find aoe pulls much easier to hold aggro on, as overpower/flash keep aoe aggro very well. Low level gla also has some pretty bad threat, probably need to flash more.

1) Your friend is a douche

2) Your black mages arent paying any attention to their enmity generation, not your fault.

3) Any DPS that doesnt know how to hold back or to attack the current marked target is going to pull hate off you. That's pure and simple fact that due to only having Flash as your only viable AoE, anything you're not currently also hitting with your sword isnt going to have a lot of enmity on it. Again, not your fault, it's a flaw with GLD/PLD and the biggest gripe of anyone who plays it. It's great on single targets, terrible on multi-targets. Outside of Shield Oath being broken in 2.3 and not working correctly anymore...

Solution: Get nicer friends, let the BLM's die a few times till they understand they shouldnt attack a target with very little enmity on it. You'll be happy, the BLM's will have learned something, and everyone's dungeons will go a lot smoother afterwards.

A determined, geared, and skilled BLM can pull hate off any similarly geared tank in a short trash fight using burst dps. This has nothing to do with the skill of the tank. Tank threat generation in FFXIV is weak. DPS and healers must help tanks manage threat. It's not like other games where tanks own threat.

Tanks can use provoke to get hate back temporarily, but they cannot prevent a BLM from taking aggro if they want it in a short fight. Good tanks can hold aggro a bit longer using their threat builders effectively, but they're still at the mercy of the DPS.

In a long fight, tanks generate enough aggro to stop DPS from doing burst damage and taking aggro. However, a white mage that is overhealing (and sustained by a bard) can still take threat. Titan HM was a good example where this happened.

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Originally Posted by Surian

Solution: Get nicer friends, let the BLM's die a few times till they understand they shouldnt attack a target with very little enmity on it. You'll be happy, the BLM's will have learned something, and everyone's dungeons will go a lot smoother afterwards.

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lol

If I join a random DF (ST) and the tank pulls them all into a nice little group to AoE down, the tank should be able to hold the agro in the first place. I only occasionally pull hate so I know its not me but the tank who is having the issue. I'm not looking at every mob while I AoE them down and 95% of the tanks I do this with handle it just fine with me going full out. Did I mention I am only i93 BLM? I am nowhere near having the best gear in the game.

There do happen to be some bad tanks out there and if they are not able to handle keeping hate when they pull them into a group (with me at i93), then they shouldn't group them in the first place just to speed things up. Especially if it wasn't even our alliance that pulled them in the first place.

Rather than let them die I usually just ask them to wait 2 seconds later before going in...it might not sound like much but it makes a difference without effecting overall fight speed.

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Originally Posted by MrSmiley

Rather than let them die I usually just ask them to wait 2 seconds later before going in...it might not sound like much but it makes a difference without effecting overall fight speed.

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I typically wait 2-3 seconds before going full out in the first place. It boggles my mind when a tank groups mobs to be AoE'd that even after 3 seconds I can still even pull hate from them. To me, it just means they were not doing their job correctly in the first place.

A BLM can pul hate pretty easily at lower levels. He can also pull pretty easily at higher levels if he gets multiple procs straight off. Also I'm sure it can be infuriating for tanks in synced dungeons when your BLM knows he can burst down any aggro he gets in a couple of seconds, often before the aggroed mob has had time to run over to him. I know I've been guilty of this in the past.
Sometimes though you have to feel for the BLM when he's in a dungeon with a fresh 50 tank. Even popping quelling strikes you often have to sit twiddling your thumbs while your tank gets enough hate back for you to risk another cast. Anantaboga used to be a bugger for that.

I main as a BLM, and when i'm doing low level dungeons,I always adapt my dps and rotation for the tank i'm queued with.

for example, yesterday I was doing Sastasha with a friend who was doing his first dungeon as a tank.
I started using only single-target spells, to see how he was mantaining aggro on group of mobs.
i saw that he was doing his job perfectly, so i started using aoes, stopping myself when the aggro meter was arond "2 full" ( basically, if I landed another fire2, every mob would be on me).

tl;dr : if you know what you are doing as a tank, and a dps steals aggro from you, it's his own damn fault. not yours.