Lately I will see people complain about grinding for tomes, and I think to myself, could be worse. Remember Dynamis? Grinding for relic weapon? Then there was Sea and Sky. Next thing we knew there was Einherjar sp? , Salvage, not to mention the climb some ppl got frustrated with just finding a pt to clear floors.
Yea, could be worse because gear is just about handed to you compared to that other FF. Try and mix up your game time so you don't get so bored or burnt out :)
End game grind.
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07-23-2014, 05:35 PMWulfynEnd game grind.
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07-23-2014, 05:46 PMGrizzlebeardDifferent game entirely. Until Abyssea the game was a horizontal progression path so we didn't mind farming Dyna for years. Well, that might be a little bit of rose-tinted nostalgia but the difference is there were multiple viable upgrade paths open to players. Didn't want to farm Dyna, then you could run Nyzul, Salvage, Ein, Sea, Sky, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wulfyn
Currently you have the latest iteration of Coil and that's pretty much it. By choosing a vertical progression for FFXIV the developers are continually invalidating their previous efforts and the players are growing heartily tired of their once a week upgrade lottery. I literally log in every few days, consider doing a roulette or PF and shrug as I know in a month or two my efforts will be invalidated. When I was younger I would have leapt in that hamster wheel but now I'm tired of the same old shit and as it increasingly appears S-E's vision for this game is a pathetically beige copy of WoW I have to question whether I even want to wait and see what kind of a pig's ear they make of ninja in 2.4, whenever that may be. -
07-23-2014, 05:52 PMCherie
Grindng? *Hunting
fixed!
Really no comparison between those two games. Besides, well, moogles! This game is about as similar to that game as it is to: "Where in the world is Carmen Sandiego?". But if it was similar, the FFXIV version would have minions of Carmen changing sides and telling you exactly where to find her! :3
Instead of logging in once a week. You log in maybe twice a week, once to raid, once to farm hunts. Except after farming hunts a few days, you are basically done. I wonder if Sands of Time stack to x99? Anyone know? -
07-23-2014, 05:59 PMWulfyn
Makes sense. Totally forgot about Nyzul, never got into WotG or Abyssea though I did alot of exploring. I myself am wondering where this game is headed now, I've always accepted that there is going to be a grind of some sort at higher levels. The one thing I don't like seeing is the recycling of dungeons and boss fights, not very appealing to me personally considering I never enjoyed fighting Titan HM as it is. I rather take a stomping by Dynamis Lord than deal with content in different modes. I think it would have been better if they come up with new dungeons or bosses instead. I can see maybe perhaps that is part of the reason for being tired of tome grinding. It would be for me.
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07-23-2014, 06:03 PMLancerz
At the rate SE is going they will be handing out high allagan armor and weapons to everyone in the next patch.
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07-23-2014, 06:27 PMCherieMake sure to show your support:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancerz
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...BC%BD%E3%81%A4 -
07-23-2014, 06:35 PMSeibahIt's really going to depend on if they nerf Twintania's instant kill mechanics or not. I'm sure they will add the echo to Coil 2 and put it in DF, but I would imagine it will still be inaccessible for a large number of players. It'll also depend on how the mechanics of coil2 fare in the face of the echo. I imagine Rafflesia will be completely trivalized by 25% more HP and Damage, while Melusine will still have people making each other....rock hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancerz
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07-23-2014, 06:38 PMVolcano
General view of it is they will also release content that is harder to compensate for the "give away" gear. You have to understand all MMOs are about grinding in some way or another, the goal is to KEEP you playing, and there is quite a lot to do.
What SE did in this regard is they are trying to give casual players a chance (casual as in people who cannot spend hundreds of hours playing this without rest, south park bucket style) so they gave side grade or slightly near the same options as high allagan for example, as content like that does require coordination and knowing many players. for soloers and people who, maybe anit-social, or whatever your nitch is, there are options to upgrade freely without being left far behind in content.
The trick is the balance, be it to hard to get or doing to much or a cluster of people you are in competition with, they tend to adjust content if enough people complain. -
07-23-2014, 08:26 PMKalleraI dunno, its not like those that are going through the coil content are bending over backward to make it more appealing as a game feature. They seem more concerned with limiting coil's access and putting a price tag on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancerz
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07-23-2014, 08:28 PMDefteros
people that rants about grinding for tomes, when they basically throw them at you.
back then, when philosophy tomes still existed, farming mithology was a pain in the butt.
now, even farming soldiery tomes it's so damn easy. -
07-23-2014, 08:36 PMAmnesiaHaze
FFXIV endgame: tedious grind for gear -> new patch -> make current gear obsolete -> introduce new tedious grind and new gear and currency -> next patch -> repeat making gear obsolete
whats the point doing it , wheres the fun ? -
07-23-2014, 08:42 PMDefteros
if you play for the gear, you are not playing to have fun.
every patch brings new contents, that you can do if you have the "previous" endgame gear.
and if you are too lazy to grind endgame contents, they always throw in other alternative to obtain endgame gear.
also, Glamour exist. people farms everytime, just to look pretty.
you want a game that has only one endgame gear, like forever?
you can play Lightning Returns xD -
07-23-2014, 09:42 PMGrizzlebeardI appreciate there's a language difference at play here so I won't go full retard on the rest of your post but I will say that in a game where there are zero alternatives to improve your character other than gear (ie no Alternate Advancement Abilities/Merits) then, yes, the game will be all about gear and, as most of us will acknowledge, S-E's design for earning that gear is boring and uninspired at best.Quote:
Originally Posted by Defteros
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07-23-2014, 10:07 PMLancerz
What I'm saying is that this is SE's logic: Make the best gear hard to get at first and after people spend months and months getting it then make it so simple for everyone else to get. They have the game on super easy mode now, you can't even get killed by running through any zones anymore like in 1.0 where their were level 90+ mobs roaming around.
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07-23-2014, 10:10 PMCuervo78Can you name a mmo where it is handled different?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancerz
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07-23-2014, 10:41 PMDefteros
advanced abilites, level cap increase, and everithing connected to that will come with the expansion.
I don't know what you mean by Advanced merits xD
the point is, this is still a "fresh" online game.
you cannot expect to have everything in a small amout of time.
they still "need" to earn money from this game xD
as for the tedious grinding...
it took me something like a month of farming fates to get my atma weapon.
boring? absolutely.
was that the only choice I had? no. I could have farmed Leviathan,now I can farm the Syrcus Tower and Ramuh ex.
It's just a personal point of view... i don't find previous patch gear obsolete (for glamour, for the retainer, desynthesis) and I don't find farming primals, or dungeons that boring or tedious.
(...) -
07-23-2014, 10:42 PMDefteros
(...)
If they could stop throwing crafting crap everywhere it would be nice ( I still have to complete a full set of the 2.2 gear xD)
the atma to animus part of the zodiac quest it's nice, dunno about farming alexandrite because i still have to finish my books, but I guess it will be WAY better than atmas ( I hope o_o)
I dunno, I think that at some point you will always be at a "I've reached the cap on this or that", and you're stuck with nothing "particular" to do.. that's why it's called end-game. the plot has ended. so you only have to do filler contents. until they upgrade.
It's not a good example, but still. take a look at Pokemon games. you do the story, you finish it. what to do next? there's nothing story-related, or nothing that can improve your pokemon. the only thing you can do is farming for shiny pokemon, farming the elite 4 till you get you team to lv 100, etcetera. until a new pokemon game comes out.
p.s: yah my english is not purrrfect, but still, what did I do wrong ;_; -
07-23-2014, 10:53 PMFelisTry it with craftingQuote:
Originally Posted by AmnesiaHaze
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07-23-2014, 11:10 PMWorm
Well they locked the relic with Myth and said they'd make it easier to obtain each patch, I guess rather than dropping the required myth they just put more myth on everything. Though the Supra crafter weapon still seem like a pretty nasty grind at a glance.
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07-23-2014, 11:57 PMDude
Hmm I don't think I agree with most of you. This game feels like it has so much to do, often its overwhelming. For more casual players, the content never seems to get old and SE does a good job of keeping your gear close enough to hardcore players. There are plenty of grinds in this game, but it's an MMO.
The horizontal progression is a thing of the past. It drives people to play for a while then quit. Especially more recreational characters. If the gear in 2.0 is as good as 2.4, you just cant expect the majority of the player base to pay that sub for some vanity options.
Of course, maybe if I played every day I would progress faster. I only get to play about 10 hours a week. But lets be serious, some people play this game 30-40 hours a week. That's a job and people love to complain about their jobs ;-) -
07-24-2014, 02:33 AMAmnesiaHazelol , i got all crafts 50'd , but thats a even more boring activity than running hundrets of brafox hm'sQuote:
Originally Posted by Felis
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07-24-2014, 03:08 AMZarzakSomeone already has a 110 retainer. So I'm sure we will find out in a couple weeks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherie
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07-24-2014, 03:10 AMWormI think they were referring instead to the crafter gear progression. Everyone worked toward getting their Forager's items and now they're getting their Supra item. However I think that's more of a prestige grind than an item that's really necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by AmnesiaHaze
Eh I mean how much time investment do you think it takes for a Sands of Time? Even with getting every A rank you'd still need about 6 hours (unless you somehow miraculously hit every A rank the second you logged in). I mean I certainly don't disagree with a lot of the issues with hunts but I feel like the attempts to characterize them as EZ-SEALS are a little strained. Getting each timer yeah I guess you can just mine for 3 hours before repop, but it's certainly not as trivial as people want to suggest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherie
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07-24-2014, 03:12 AMDefteros
Oh my god now I NEED a Carmen San Diego minion.
WHAT DID YOU DO.
I HATE YOU -
07-24-2014, 03:19 AMKallera
I dunno, I guess I thought it would be different this time. I guess that's not the case.
I wish I had my game back. Its hard to get hyped for stuff in this one. -
07-24-2014, 04:40 AMElven
The grind is all this game has.
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07-24-2014, 04:51 AModintius
There grind in every game you've ever played it how they mask it to were it doesn't feel so grindy is what the tricky part is take out grind mechinism completely and you'll start to see developers with suicide notes of them never being able to keep up on the news. I find the lore and story fun but I like abit more progression on characters myself this vertical stuff is starting to go stale for me at least.
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07-24-2014, 05:07 AMFendred
My issue is that most of the people I used to play with on FFXIV have permanently vacated the premises and all we have left are new players (mostly PS4 users) who have to go through the same painful learning curve at end game as I did. Only difference is they have a lot more content to move through instead of a grind. Their progression through trial and raid boss encounters is painfully slow because of the game's leveling experience not touching base on the most important UI elements needed in order to keep track of boss mechanics (using the targets list, Focus Target, and Target of Target... looking for cast bars actually takes a bit of training as well). Even though I do my best to educate new players, using these UI elements goes against basic gaming instincts and so takes a bit of time to actually master. The fatality rate on fights is thus artificially inflated to ridiculous proportions. Not a fun situation.
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07-24-2014, 05:13 AMindiragear score = fail 100% of the time you focus is mostly on gear not content. they put gear score in FFXI and it became a ghost town abyssea didnt have half the effect the gearscore did.Quote:
Originally Posted by AmnesiaHaze
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07-24-2014, 05:29 AMAmnesiaHazesorry , im not a FF MMO veteran so im not following kinda , all i can say i had fun grinding each and every classe to 50 in this game , but the endgame feels like a drag for me for some reason without fun , i had even fun getting all initial relics , but havent got one animus , i gave up on 5th book , for some reason the concept isnt satisfying me , to the point im not sure if i prolong my sub :'(Quote:
Originally Posted by indira
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07-24-2014, 06:02 AMXatsh
Gear score kills a game because it locks the devs into constant linear progression. Which honestly is a horrible model to use.
It makes it very hard to have content that last. The gear treadmill is what it is called. It is something that came with WoW and everyone else has adopted it but it is a bad design.
XI people did not mind the grind because yea it might take 3 months of work to get that BIS piece or 1=2yrs to get your relic, but that piece for its job was BIS for the next 9 years. Your hard work and time spent was rewarded for ever. Not 3-6 months.
- The argument people who never played it would be why would you want that, where that content was BIS for the life cycle of the game. That is where not having a gear score comes into play. That was the BIS piece for one of the 6 builds of your job, you had for 1 of your 18 jobs. See how that goes.
In a horizontal developed game you would have endless relevant content. Imaging how much more there would be to do if everything released since 2.0 launched at endgame was still top tier endgame. Now multiply that through 2 expansions. You have 100-300hrs a week of content (More then you can possibly do).
SE looking to WoW to get an idea on how to make casual content and UI was the right move. Copying the linear progression model is just a horrible horrible move. Gear Score is all negative and 0 positives.
It locks devs into making sure Ilvl 110 is weaker then 115. And the next patch you have to have a higher Ilvl which much be stronger then the 115. That is horrible design.
Yoshida needs to look at old XI, the one that was thriving and take a look at what is possible with horrizontal development. Yes new gear needs to replace some old gear. But each content should replace only 3-4 pieces of gear, combine that with multiple unique sets that are not strait stat boost and you will have content that will last for 1-2 yrs not 1-2 months.
Abysea and linear progression has all but turned XI into a ghost town.
I do not get devs and some people who want pure linear design.
What is better after a few years in the game.
10 raids, 60 instanced fights, 50-60 dungeons, 20 non-instance open world activities. All with relevant endgame gear
or
1 raid, 2 instanced fights, 3 dungeons, 2 open world activities. All with relevant endgame gear <= the current XIV and why so many people have an issue with it
It should not be a hard choice. -
07-24-2014, 06:08 AMElven
I think RNG combined with content that can't be done solo disillusions players and sure you can join an FC or PUG it but there is no guarantee you're going to progress as much as you would like. The grind as I mentioned earlier is all this game has.
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07-24-2014, 06:27 AMKiaraWell said, Grizzlebeard, Xatsh. Absolutely agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzlebeard
It's fine to look at the most successful MMORPG for inspiration, but they should look at their own successes and incorporate the best of both worlds.
It doesn't have to be as extreme a Horizontal Progression as XI was, but surely Yoshi P could have *some* Horizontal Progression and more Stats that mattered (and hence could be useful on Gear Sets), and thus, NOT have to put so much undue pressure on the Development Team, invalidating all the Top End Gear, every single major patch.
Fundamentally, you can still have NEW Challenges, NEW Fights / Dungeons, Bosses, it just doesn't have to make all the current gear you work for useless every 3 - 6 months.
There's nothing worse feeling than seeing the gear you finally earned become WORTHLESS with every major patch. It's a kick in the gut for many players, and makes the Hamster Wheel / Grind VERY apparent.
Instead, he should expose more interesting Statistics and make other Stats more worthwhile. An example of Interesting Gear Sets (Horizontal Progression) (just a quick example for Paladin) *IF STATS MATTERED MORE*:
(All the same "iLevel")
* Vitality (VIT) Gear Set emphasizing HP / "Blood tanking."
* Dexterity (DEX) Gear Set emphasizing Increasing Block & Parry Rate %.
* Strength (STR) Gear Set emphasizing Amount of Block Damage Reduction & Increased Damage style of tanking.
* "+ Enmity" Gear pieces that increased Enmity Generation.
* "Enhances Circle of Scorn" Item - This piece of Armor (whichever slot) enhances Circle of Scorn, adding another [Trait / Benefit / Debuff]" etc.
* "Increases Cure Potency" (for Paladins that want to heal others to actually make "Cure" on PLD useful, and it inherently generates Enmity through Curing).
* "Enhances Rampart" - Turns Rampart to its 1.23 version (granting an AOE Shielding Effect / Defense Up for nearby Party Members).
There are plenty more interesting ideas than what I wrote.
But the idea is that all of these could be very interesting and useful, and players could spend their time challenging a variety of Dungeons / getting some of these maybe even Crafted with Rare Dungeon Materials + [Item], etc.
Instead, the game has devolved into 1 Main Stat, and a couple ancillary Secondary Stats, and all of it gets Invalidated every 3 - 6 months with each patch. :( :mad: -
07-25-2014, 03:08 AMWormWhy is everyone always taking themselves hostage?Quote:
Originally Posted by AmnesiaHaze
Anyway I hope you guys have luck turning this into another horizontal progression thread. Maybe you should all start putting away a little cash when the throwback MMO you've been waiting for shows up on kickstarter, because I assure you, it will need every cent. -
07-25-2014, 03:25 AMFindelThis x100. I quit after 2.2 launched and only came back in 2.3 to get ready for 2.4. I have an i90 SCH, BRD and WHM and i84+ DRG and WAR. But all of that is worthless for endgame and I don't have the time or patience to grind for the next 3 months to maybe get to i100 or 105 on a single job to do coil. Not to mention, all the PUG coil groups on my server mostly want experienced players which I am currently not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiara
I really wished we would get at least 2-3 patches of horizontal gear progression so I have the time to build up to BiS for a SINGLE one of my jobs. If not 2 so I have play with some effing variety instead of being locked to a single job despite having 5 or 6 at 50. Almost feels like having more than a single job at 50 is utterly worthless because I can't properly gear more than 1 for coil. Everything else can currently be done with i80 and some skill. -
07-25-2014, 03:50 AMCodekIsn't your whole point a bit moot once it's pointed out that this game does not support the ability to swap gear out during combat?Quote:
Originally Posted by Xatsh
When taking that into account, you would have to be delusional to believe that developers could balance out a system that incorporates a reason to kill 60+ boss fights and drop a piece of gear that is good for your character for the next few years.
Also FFXI's job balancing was a complete mess largely due to the ability to swap gear during combat. It's great for those who play the game for insane amount of hours but it really does ruin everything for the general player base.
I'd take game balance over the monster that XI had any day.