Radars in Frontlines and Hunts - Any word from SE?

It would be nice to hear that something will be done to counter the effect of the rampant cheating taking place in their latest update.

Yes, this has to be fixed immediately.

There is nothing they can do besides banning people who have evidence against them, to suggest they have been using such tools, by the community.

I don't see what they can do. I'm not privy to the inner workings of the system, but from what I've heard the radar only reads data from the game client. If it were accessing the server then SE would be able to detect it, but as is they can't tell who's doing it.

Of course, ignoring chatlogs of people bragging about using it isn't making us very confident that they're even trying. Nor is deleting every thread that mentions them. It's like they're going out of their way to ignore the issue.

I'm not familiar with the 3rd party programs involved, but based on what I have read about them on here, one thing they could do is reduce the enemy position update range. This would actually help reduce overall traffic as well. Though strictly speaking, I'm not sure how far away these radars supposedly work, so it's possible they have already done that. If the server only updated the clients on the position of monsters within a 50 yalm range (about the range that monsters start loading on the screen anyway), that would drastically impact 3rd party apps' abilities to track monster movement at long range.

Again, I'm basing this entirely on conjecture, it's possible they already do something like this and the 3rd party programs function in a completely different way, but I doubt it.

I think they should just let them be shown on everyone's map if there's no way they can find out who the people who are using this app are. This is pretty much what they did in 1.0 so might as well do it here too.

I think it would be hilarious to place elites underground that move around and teleport around the region to completely throw people off that use radar, lol. They could do the same for frontlines as well...have random player names moving around the field underground.

People use radars in frontlines now? Why? (´・ω・`)
2.3 ~Exploiters of Eorzea~

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Originally Posted by Nukocafe

People use radars in frontlines now? Why? (´・ω・`)
2.3 ~Exploiters of Eorzea~

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So you can see when drones pop and where the other team is.

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Originally Posted by Zetsumei_Tsunarashi

So you can see when drones pop and where the other team is.

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Welp...glad I never bothered then ಠ_ಠ

Hey everyone. Actually in previous thread I had come up with the barebones idea of a solution to the problem. A few others commented and helped iron it out. I would encourage you all to read this thread and post your support if you like the idea. The more support it gets the better chance SE will take a look at it.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...p-Hunt-Abusers

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Originally Posted by Hulan

If the server only updated the clients on the position of monsters within a 50 yalm range (about the range that monsters start loading on the screen anyway), that would drastically impact 3rd party apps' abilities to track monster movement at long range.

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This is exactly how it works now. The server only tells your client about entities in your area of interest, which is a bubble centered on your character with a radius of about 50-60 yalms. Radar apps cannot detect marks outside of this bubble because the client simply does not know about them.

As a few others have mentioned, there is basically nothing they can do to stop the radar apps from a technical standpoint. Something will need to change in the way the Hunt system is designed if they want to mitigate the impact of these kinds of programs.

How can we know that you're not one of those users fishing for what SE plans to do so you can come up with new ideas to evade SE's detection?
We can't of course, and can only take you for your word that you're not.
But the above question is one reason why you shouldn't expect anything other than occasional announcements that X numbers have been (temp)banned.

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Originally Posted by Ninix

This is exactly how it works now. The server only tells your client about entities in your area of interest, which is a bubble centered on your character with a radius of about 50-60 yalms. Radar apps cannot detect marks outside of this bubble because the client simply does not know about them.

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Hmmm, I had considered the possibility. But in that case, I'm not entirely sure I see the problem - other than the obvious fact that it is a blatant violation of the ToS. Fifty Yalms is barely enough for a competitive advantage, and certainly isn't enough to allow them to just lazily stand around town. You could accomplish the exact same thing by being more observant. Don't get me wrong, against ToS is against ToS. On the other hand, I find myself wondering what the huge fuss is all about.

They could use application layer AES - or some other encryption - on the position data, but that would only last as long as it took some clever user to find the private key. If they're already limiting data to a medium range, there's not much they can do beyond what they have already done. Act on abuse reports.

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Originally Posted by Ninix

This is exactly how it works now. The server only tells your client about entities in your area of interest, which is a bubble centered on your character with a radius of about 50-60 yalms. Radar apps cannot detect marks outside of this bubble because the client simply does not know about them.

As a few others have mentioned, there is basically nothing they can do to stop the radar apps from a technical standpoint. Something will need to change in the way the Hunt system is designed if they want to mitigate the impact of these kinds of programs.

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If radar apps also "reads" player locations in frontlines pvp, then it is providing tactical information that normal play never intended to give on the map.

Knowing where your opponents are massed or hidden is a huge strategic advantage.

Feasible or not, this cannot stand. As it is already impacting the experience and fair play of users.

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Originally Posted by Nekodar

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Was this directed at me? If so, this is kinda amusing. I made that thread because over and over people are saying nothing can be done nothing can be done, doom and gloom. So I figured I would spur the community to be a bit more productive and actually help look for a solution. If you actually read the thread you would understand that what you said makes no sense. What I proposed was a solid solution to the current exploit. Sure other abusers will come around and try to find other ways to abuse the system, but i would have nothing to gain from putting that solution out there seriously. And I'm not looking for a response from SE to say they did or didnt implement this, I do want them to see it though because with their programmers I am certain they could take it even further and remove the advantage of these abusers. If that comment wasnt directed at me, my apologies.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Feasible or not, this cannot stand. As it is already impacting the experience and fair play of users.

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That's nice and all, but it doesn't really matter. This is an issue literally all games are vulnerable to, and there is no way to really stop it short of adding some cheat detection to the client, which is just going to start a neverending arms race between SE and people who create the cheats. It's expensive, time consuming, and not really worth the effort if the game is designed properly. While the radar app definitely gives you an advantage, it's certainly not one I would call a "huge strategic advantage", since the range is very limited and anything the radar shows is also visible in the game world.

It's a slightly larger advantage in Hunts, since it lets people just run around a zone semi-AFK and not really paying any attention until they see a red blip on the radar, but it does not remove the need to actually run around the whole zone.

This is why I feel that, even though the Radar app is certainly cheating, it's really not that big of a deal. The *design* of the hunt system itself is the bigger issue. The rewards are far too great, which causes huge numbers of people to participate. This in turn causes zone servers to lag and marks to die in 30 seconds. This in turn causes the community to demand that people wait for 5 minutes before pulling a mark to allow their whole linkshell to show up and tag the mob. This in turn causes anyone who pulls early to be verbally abused and blacklisted by half the server. This in turn causes the community to go to shit in general.

None of this is being caused by the Radar, and it will not go away if the Radar is (somehow) eliminated. It's being caused by a poorly designed game system, and can only be fixed with modifications to the game design.

Since FFXIV-APP doesn't seem to actually hook into the process, SE would need something along the lines of Warden/VAC/Punkbuster correct? The parsing doesn't bother me, but ever since they added the Radar plugin I knew it'd be abused in frontlines and it annoys me to no end. It's all open source now too, so not like it'd go away if the developer gave up on it.

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Originally Posted by Ninix

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Hence why I created a thread that doesn't have any recommendations. I would just like to hear something from SE as to whether they plan to do anything to disrupt this.

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Originally Posted by Ninix

That's nice and all, but it doesn't really matter. This is an issue literally all games are vulnerable to, and there is no way to really stop it short of adding some cheat detection to the client, which is just going to start a neverending arms race between SE and people who create the cheats. It's expensive, time consuming, and not really worth the effort if the game is designed properly. While the radar app definitely gives you an advantage, it's certainly not one I would call a "huge strategic advantage", since the range is very limited and anything the radar shows is also visible in the game world...

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The ability to predict a flanking maneuver, to determine reconnaissance attempts and ambushes from character model distance(considerably more that what we have now.), to have 360 degree vision through barriers and rocks?

I stand by my assessment. An app that can do this is a bigger deal than you think in PvP.

I spend most of my time these days hunting marks and playing frontlines... and TBH I've never encountered any mention of a radar or had anyone using a radar affect my game playing experience in anyway what so ever.

I've seen all of these posts and I sincerely agree that exploiters should be investigated and punished, however I don't see where this is a huge issue / plague / pestilence that has gone crazy on the forums.

Maybe it's just not happening on my server...

SE did just announce multiple bans for exploits just a couple days ago. The aren't ignoring issues.

Seven hour maintenance. I wonder, if in addition to shoring up the servers for the free to play (for old expired subs) weekend, they looking at adding some sort of backend detection system along the lines of Warden...

Simple fix, make these things appear on the in game radar!!!!!!!!!!!!

I dread the thought of people cheating in PvP with radar. I really wish that SE would either find a way to stop it, find a way to ban these people OR come out and say that it is no longer against the ToS. If it wasn't against the ToS I'd use it. I'm just not the type to break rules or cheat. Not my style.

I recently tried frontlines and it made me remember how much I love PvP. And how much I missed it. The sad part is I've suddenly lost interest in most of the PvE content. The GCD is still a problem but the size of the playing field is amazing. Another appeal is that they have no stupid PvP stats like most MMO's do. The latter is probably the biggest appeal to me. It's based your teams overall skill and cooperation. Sometimes you get a terrible team but it can still be fun to fight even in that situation. Healers may be a tad OP in frontlines. However I can't gauge them properly because your team tends to either get great DPS that know how to focus target and burn down healers fast or TERRIBLE DPS that can't kill a single healer let alone anyone.

SE please assist!

Could you add player's locations to the map? As much as it pains me, not knowing where your opponents were was a tactical advantage and was part of the thrill of this instance - but now confirming a few players are taking advantage seems like we have to "even" it out a bit....

Just notify the server when the drones are about to spawn as well...

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Originally Posted by PrimeEvilPanda

Just notify the server when the drones are about to spawn as well...

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no because it'll be so boring now...but what else can we do? FL was the most fun thing in this game for me
and ST. but now this games been riddled with cheaters and crap.
i cant bother with hunts co they're crap and ppl ostracized each other so much...
-sigh; cheaters ruinin so much junk

Warden is a cat and mouse game, you can just rename the process every time warden updates, as the app only reads game memory. This road leads to less focus on content
Encrypting doesn't work, the decryption key must be in PC memory

Sorry, not much you can do except make the tools pointless to use. Best you can do is report a player if they admit to using 3rd party tools in chat, ban incoming.

I want to reiterate what we announced recently, as our policy regarding third party tools remains unchanged.

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We will continue to take stringent disciplinary action against any accounts with confirmed involvement in illicit activity; players should take care to steer clear of any activity that violates the Terms of Service.
Players who discover any confirmed cheats should, under no circumstances, exploit or disseminate such information. Instead, we ask that players file a report by using the in-game [System Menu] -> [Support Desk] -> [Contact Us] -> [Report Cheating].

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We take all reports seriously and we appreciate your cooperation in reporting any issues that you discover.

Good to know that it's at least officially a bannable offence now. If only it was easier to tell that people were using it.

Its been officially bannable since the game started. It was also first mentioned directly quite a few months ago.

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Originally Posted by Grekumah

I want to reiterate what we announced recently, as our policy regarding third party tools remains unchanged.



We take all reports seriously and we appreciate your cooperation in reporting any issues that you discover.

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Would there be any possible way to expedite this process? Like targeting the perpetrator, then in the dropdown menu, have Report -> Cheating / RMT / Harassment / Etc.? It should still bring up the form to fill out, absolutely, but as simple as it sounds to report folks, it can be a teensy bit tedious.

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Originally Posted by Grekumah

I want to reiterate what we announced recently, as our policy regarding third party tools remains unchanged.

We take all reports seriously and we appreciate your cooperation in reporting any issues that you discover.

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I greatly appreciate the reply, Thank you.

Though honestly, my question was if SE intends to do anything to counteract the cheating.


From all the information I've gathered, SE is no more able to detect people using these programs than we the players are unless they goof up and mention it in chat. Thus large groups of players only need a small amount of players standing stationary in zones to detect exactly when A and B rank hunts pop up and the general vacinity (about 130 yalms) that they lie in. Thus reducing any small hunting groups window to find and claim A ranks to just a couple minutes unless they join these groups and partake of the ill gotten information.

These same 3rd party app are also making it impossible to hide while playing frontlines. As it stands, the large amounts of people cheating are making the content completely unenjoyable and near impossible for your entire PS3 and Ps4 playerbase and PC players that have any integrity.

Are the dev team looking into ways to counteract this behavior whatsoever? A good half of your playerbase would greatly appreciate to know.

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Originally Posted by Hybris-Maenad

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I support this.

We don't need to know what you're going to do, nor how, for obvious reasons. We simply would like to know if you're going to actively fight this (there has been many suggestions about how to do this without Warden/Punkbuster/whatever, and I'm sure that the devs could come with many other ways), or if you'll stay passive and rely only on user reports.

It's important for some of us. So, please, ask the dev team if they can answer that simple question. Thank you :)

We told people back when radars went live it was cheating. But the people still made them and included in software. IMO, it needs to be removed from the parse apps.

You also know when the drones pop.... WITHOUT a radar .. because the pops are timed

oh and parser apps are also considered cheating, so it doesn't matter any more if your parser has a radar or not, because both is considered 3rd party tool that is not allowed

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Originally Posted by Grekumah

I want to reiterate what we announced recently, as our policy regarding third party tools remains unchanged.



We take all reports seriously and we appreciate your cooperation in reporting any issues that you discover.

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Except the PVP community has been reporting wolves dens bots for months now and nothing has ever been done. The bots were many and well known and very public. Was something done about this? Nope.

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Originally Posted by Majidah

Except the PVP community has been reporting wolves dens bots for months now and nothing has ever been done. The bots were many and well known and very public. Was something done about this? Nope.

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the only thing I can think of why nothing has been done.

Those bots are used by people that actually are infront of the pc, runnning FF on a seperate monitor while doing something else and when a GM tell comes they answer. or do less obvious bot things

Third party software is not the problem. The problem is the bad game design. Since devs can't do anything about third party tools, it would be nice if they started working on fixing problems with hunt and frotline systems, among other things.

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Originally Posted by Zirael_Foxfire

Third party software is not the problem. The problem is the bad game design. Since devs can't do anything about third party tools, it would be nice if they started working on fixing problems with hunt and frotline systems, among other things.

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This.

It's fine that they're saying it's not allowed, we all know that already. What I want to know is what are they doing to even the playing field? If they aren't actively finding these people and banning them they gotta do something to help the players that are at a disadvantage, else this really comes down to a "Use it, just don't tell us" scenario.

Someone correct me if I am wrong here.

As far as I can see, the apps work by recieving info from the server itself and translating them to the players.

So unless the app itself actually sent questions to the server, the server have no idea what is going on. To the server, the client is at location xyz, all other mobs are at abc.

So unless SE plans to install spybots to detect unwanted stuff. I dont foresee anything happening.