I have grown very frustrated with this game's insistence on wasting my time. I have no problem grinding every job to 50 and the like, but when a grind offers no actual content, that's too much. I've capped out my materia on Fisher, so now the game expects me to sit there, beholden to the RNG to catch silver sovereigns in a mind-numbing grind for 20+ hours. There is no skill involved, and it isn't fun. I already have a job, and they pay me to spend my time doing boring tasks.
A really good example of good vs. bad design is the original crafting master books. Having to make five HQ two star materials is a good test for mastery. They're expensive to try, so you have to make each attempt count, and getting lucky and HQing one isn't enough. You need to be able to make HQ two star materials fairly consistently to get a master book. And if you only make an NQ material, you can use it for something else. That's great design!
Then, to get the next tier or tool to make three-star stuff you need to... HQ fifty of an item. Which has a virtually worthless NQ version. This isn't even something you'd attempt unless success were virtually guaranteed, so again it's just a mindless, repetitive, time-wasting grind.
To put it another way, if I could master a crafting or gathering class in six hours or so, I would probably try to master them all. Making each one take 20 hours means I won't bother with any. By increasing the time required, you are actually reducing the amount I will play your game.
My time is valuable. I've decided to spend it playing your game. So why do you insist on wasting it?
Please Stop Making Content-Less Grinds
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07-10-2014, 08:48 PMTalraenPlease Stop Making Content-Less Grinds
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07-10-2014, 08:55 PMThaliss
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...418#post492418
Good thing you changed your mind and like MMOs again, true it was 2 and half years ago :) just found it to be funny.Quote:
Originally Posted by Talraen
Any activity accessible to everybody in a game is grind. "Skill" (fast and/or precise reaction) or knowledge would stop most content to be accessible to everyone. -
07-10-2014, 09:04 PMYurai
Maybe deciding to spend your limited time on a game that you consider a waste of time is a mistake :)
Not trying to defend the game though, some elements are indeed tedious and time-consuming. The simple solution is just to skip those parts. If all the things you want to do are like these and you're unable to have fun with the game while accepting that some parts of it just take time, then there are tons of single-player or limited-multiplayer games that might be a better investment of your time. The moment you start to stress out over a game is when you should take a step back and have a long, hard think about whether or not this is something you want to keep doing. -
07-10-2014, 09:15 PMXenor
I think there are many people who feel the game has become more of a chore than fun since 2.2. If you don't like excessive grinding the game isn't for you, yet that wouldn't hold true before 2.2. Completely different game.
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07-10-2014, 09:21 PMTupsi
Welcome to what MMORPGs are supposed to be and how regardless more than enough people will continue to play and therefore SE will continue to make money. MMOs as of late have died out very fast because there was truly nothing to keep the players invested after the game gave you everything on a silver platter. Why do you think TERA had a complete turn around? it went F2P/Slightly P2W and threw in some "contentless grinds" compared to when it was P2P.
Why do you think most MMOs that still run to this day are usually older ones and came from an era before MMOs were mainstream? 2.0 and 2.1 were a weird time for XIV since it was a relaunch, it was too standard, now it looks like they found a good direction. MMOs will have grinds, got to face facts.
Technically, you waste time by simply playing video games at all if you have such little time. We're all humans with the same value of time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Talraen
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07-10-2014, 09:23 PMRiion
Yeah, everything is becoming an absurd grind. It's really disheartening that by playing moderately every single day there are pieces of gear I still wouldn't see for months. I like the game, but I don't want to live in it 24/7 to accomplish something of worth.
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07-10-2014, 09:24 PMEdli
Just don't do it. A lot of things in the game are not worth grinding for in the end. Do you really need whatever you're grinding for on your fisher?
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07-10-2014, 09:51 PMTupsiDid you know? Second Coil has a 1 week lockout, thus it will take a month or more to complete a set of armor for your main? Just like it did for the first coil of bahamut back in 2.0? Did you know, Labyrinth of Ancients had a 1 week lockout and it would take 1 month or more to complete a set for your main/alt/whatever you wanted to complete? Did you know, Syrcus Tower has a 1 week lockout on gear/tomestone and will ta...you get the idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Riion
Taking awhile to get what you want is nothing new to XIV, FF or MMORPGs. You don't have to be on 24/7 to do the Hildebrand quests, or to try primals and such. -
07-10-2014, 11:40 PMRansuDepends on the game :P SWTOR has become so casual that drops in operations are just tokens now. If a guild has hard mode on farm they can take a new guild member through two operations in one night and have full gear. Wont be min maxed but it will be the highest tier lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi
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07-11-2014, 12:04 AMHaibelDamn son, taken him to school. this has got to be one of the single greatest post I've seen in a while.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thaliss
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07-11-2014, 12:09 AMKalleraShe still hates fundamental aspects of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Haibel
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07-11-2014, 12:13 AMSeif
I would say this holds true for the new chocobo raising too.
It's like they forgot the actual game-part from the whole thing. -
07-11-2014, 01:42 AMNeroI had to stop right there.. if you really believe getting a Job to 50 is a grind, MMO's are not for you. You can get to 50 that fast, that you don't even have to buy gear between 10 and 50... it is in fact hilarious fast. Leveling is a lot in FFXIV, but not a grind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Talraen
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07-11-2014, 02:01 AMMayh
Its overwhelming when these patches come out. There is just so much to do, and yet only half of it is really fun. (or not, I guess it depends for you)
There is this attitude inside MMO's where everyone wants to max everything, be the richest and whatever else your goals may be. Some people are completion-ists, and some just like to brag nonstop.
--> There is always going to be someone who is further along~ it doesn't matter who you are. Then more content comes out and those people have to race to keep up.
Having said that, just think about what you do enjoy in this game. Play selectively. Just because some boring grindy content (or non-content as it may be) is there, it doesn't mean we all have to participate. Everything has an expiration date in an MMO. Gear gets outdated.
Create your own achievable goals that make you happy, and you may not be so frustrated anymore. ヾ(＠⌒ー⌒＠)ノ -
07-11-2014, 02:12 AMFawkesThat's some quality ad hominem right there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thaliss
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07-11-2014, 02:23 AMRedAntares
I kinda understand you OP but just try to avoid what you consider extremely grindy or boring to do, sure... I would love to have all my crafts at max level and be able to help my FC and craft cool stuff for them and my character but I find the crafting system REALLY boring so I just focus on getting gear and daily quest every time I log in, once I'm happy with my gear and complete all the new quest in 2.3 I'm going to give the game a break till 2.4, that way I don't get burned out and can still enjoy the game new content at a later date.
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07-11-2014, 02:32 AMRansuYou should try re-reading what you quoted...Quote:
Originally Posted by Nero
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07-11-2014, 05:48 AMOrophin
If you weren't playing this you'd be doing something else to "waste time". It's all wasted time either way you look at it. We all gotta go sometime. You just gotta make the most out of the time you have. Some people choose to play this game as their escape from the real world, other people have other hobbies. If this game isn't enjoyable for you, you clearly need to find something else to do.
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07-11-2014, 06:46 AMWelsper59If you or anyone else doesn't see the value in the very thing that you don't like, as a crafter (see "a money maker"), you don't understand what it means to be a crafter in an MMORPG. Admittedly, the current pricing to get the upgrades are high in both cost and time, but they aren't even needed yet if that's a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Talraen
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07-11-2014, 06:52 AMLemuria
To be fair, the OP has an extremely valid point. Argue semantics all you like, but the 'master crafting' is a perfect example of grind for the sake of grind.
Now if Silver Brocade, for example, were used in an actual crafting recipe or have some value beyond trading it for worthless junk at the selfsame vendor I might worry less about grinding away 60 of the things for weapon + headgear. But they don't. It's solid proof that SE just doesn't understand what to do with the crafting system they've got in place. I'm almost convinced that the only reason we have some kind of system at the moment is because it was largely already in place during 1.0.
Perhaps the post was worded improperly. The term 'wasting time' implies that there's no real progression when in reality what they've done is slow it to a crawl artificially. They could go out of their way to actually make it fun again, but that would require something resembling effort, which they haven't felt compelled to do for crafters since launch.
People have this weird notion that if you dislike an aspect of the game it means you dislike the whole game, and people are quick to get defensive when something they enjoy is targeted. Well, I love crafting. I maxed all of my crafters as a labour of love, not a grindfest and took each new high level synth as a challenge to be met. Hitting a brick wall because you don't have every piece of HQ gear melded with the absolute best materia money can't buy, and every single crafting food item known to Lalafell kind is just poor design. -
07-11-2014, 08:10 AMRiionSigh, a month is reasonable. Three or more months is not. If I did a Three Frontlines every single day it would still take me over three months to get a full set of the highest tier pvp gear. Three months...every single day. That's not discounting the price of the sets below that, either. Nice try, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi
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07-11-2014, 08:18 AMAbraxisI'm inclined to agree. Granted each patch adds changes to drops, quantity, locations in which to obtain items and what not...but the fact remains, the way they currently have the grind factor set up for most things, assuming nothing gets changed, items that are currently end-game or BiS will be impossible to obtain while they're relevant, since the time needed to get said item, would lapse into the next patch/expansion making it utterly pointless and obsolete.Quote:
Originally Posted by Riion
I think SE is taking the "prolong time invested to obtain reward" a bit TOO far in a majority of the games aspects. But hey, that's my $0.02. -
07-11-2014, 08:47 AMCYoung187
I want it now!
Honestly MMO is not for you. The game is not designed for you to complete in a month. SE would be broke if it was. The game would have no staying power if there was no grind. Even the grind in this game is pretty minimal. -
07-11-2014, 09:00 AMRiionLOL! Why's that? Because I don't want to subject myself to endless grinds? I guarantee the players who do are in the minority. I've nothing against grinding. The best gear should require work, but when you put in a ton of work to achieve gear just in time (or not) for it to become irrelevant, then perhaps the grind is a bit too ambitious.Quote:
Originally Posted by CYoung187
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07-11-2014, 09:10 AMEisselsI think the key word there is *content-less* grinds.Quote:
Originally Posted by CYoung187
Grinds are fine. They're the lifeblood of MMOs. But, please, can they be something engaging or interesting, not running around spamming low level FATEs or other things that offer absolutely nothing in terms of fun gameplay. -
07-11-2014, 09:21 AMTupsiPeople always say: "Is the minority" to pretty much everything when it's up to the developers to decide who is or isn't in the minority. Funnily enough, only the "minority" wanted SE to focus on hairstyles and we get them every patch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Riion
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07-11-2014, 09:45 AMFendred
The grind is definitely an issue on some parts of the game (I'm looking at you, Atma grind!). I think the other question is why do we feel compelled to participate in said grinds even if we hate them? I'd say I really want the paladin atma shield and sword just because they better match the paladin AF2 color scheme (for those who don't know what AF2 means, I am referring to the mythos job specific gear). However, the ultra low chances of acquiring the prerequisite items does translate to a lot of wasted time doing fates because there is no definitive progress to acquiring the atma. You either get the atma of the x from the zone you're in or you don't.
I also think their is a high level of toxicity at end game in terms of negative social pressure from elitists that forces people into the wrong kind of grinds. No one should feel they need to grind ex primals or do all the duty roulettes every single day just so some other person who whines about other people being new can get easy kills on DF or PF. Toxic players make all forms of end game grind that much more painful if just for painting the entire game experience in a negative light. -
07-11-2014, 09:55 AMRiionI literally have no idea what point your trying to make, but okay!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi
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07-11-2014, 10:49 AMHeroSamson
Isn't all MMO's like that, I think you should stick to single player games then.
No offense. -
07-11-2014, 11:29 AMAbraxisOne of the most over used and incorrect arguments in defense of grinds when people assume that anyone complaining about ANY grind means ALL grinds. SOME grinds are fine, I enjoy them. Rewards at end game NEED to be worked for. But I want to work for it in a way that requires skill and actual knowledge of my class/job, not being at the mercy of RNG placed upon RNG with a dash of RNG for good measure. Or hell, even a grind for stuff that serves NO other purpose other than pure aesthetics and visual flair (Augmented AF for example). Bluntly implementing a grind for the sake of increasing "longevity" in an MMO is never a good thing. As the OP stated, as well as the title of the thread, content-less grinds are becoming a bit much.Quote:
Originally Posted by HeroSamson
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07-11-2014, 01:33 PMDestinova
Let me share an experience back when I used to play Diablo 2 I loved it. Then by chance I was able to get all the gear I wanted and then I was like what's left. Everything got boring.
If gear was just handed out what would be the point of playing. No matter what game you play there will be a "grind". Do you have the passion to push through it and achieve your goal? No? then stop playing. Or do something else. Yes? Good luck and dont give up. -
07-11-2014, 03:33 PMLamentations
This is not going to change until and if subfees tank, and at that point it would be too late anyway.
This is a direct result of trying to cater to both gimme right now casual entitle'ists, and hard core players.
Making a game consisting of faceroll 1-50 leveling content that is also played by MMO vets that hardcore assault it like 2004 XI is going to keep you behind on content for a life of the game.
The answer of course, is mind-numbing massive wall timesink grinds, this gives SE time to work on that expansion content.
Get used to it, these systems aren't going anywhere, unless the expansion multiplies the overall game content by say 500%. -
07-11-2014, 03:49 PMOrson_Dara
The OP has a valid point the effort vs reward was in a sweet spot around 2.0 - 2.1 since 2.2 there's been too much of a focus on not just grind but RNG. Most content aside from dungeons or Coil is hugely RNG or a massive grind. This isn't about making content that's accessible it's about making content that's engaging, fun, and rewarding.
Look at the original primals and the EX versions. Almost everyone worked to do complete them. They were fairly challenging and carried with them decent rewards with a bit of grind. Compare that to Leviathan sure got a decent enough weapon but there was no progression and the encouragement to repeat the content was destroyed by bad RNG. Then you look at the new Relic quests gone are the epic fights that required you to learn the game mechanics instead replaced by lame boring low level content. Hurrah GRIND!!! Hurrah RNG!!! So much fun.... People need to smarten up it's not the fact that people are against "effort" if it's actually engaging content.
Most players don't have any where near the amount of time needed to complete most of these things. SE is mistakenly trying to cater to a tiny fraction of the population. In FFXI the relic quests were done by a tiny % of the population and were for the most part a complete waste of development. They need to break this old cycle otherwise this game will fail again. What kills me is all these old FFXI players are trying to turn FFXIV into FFXI it's sad because it's a dated style of game development that's already shown that people are tired of it. -
07-11-2014, 04:11 PMDestinova
I can agree on the fights for relics they need to have more epic fights that are easily accessible but take some skill to complete. Maybe that will be the next step in upgrading the relic!