Gap between MNK and DRG dps widening

I guess people are aware how much dps a MNK is capable to dish out at iLvl 110 vs a DRG with the same iLvl.

The difference is insane.

Why all the love to MNK and not DRG?

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Originally Posted by Frizbeez

I guess people are aware how much dps a MNK is capable to dish out at iLvl 110 vs a DRG with the same iLvl.

Why all the love to MNK and not DRG?

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I would love to know this too. I'm not trying to be bias or anything (Because I main Drg) but I think Drg is most efficient because of Disembowel. This move helps Birds pull out a few extra Dps. Not like it does anything but that's just me.

Only reason why I think people want Monk more than Drg because of loldrg (Their Jumps and how they die because of it) and maybe their Mantra (?).

I'm surprised at this since doesnt DRG have a 330-impact move? Think most monk has is 190. :/ I'd be realy surprised if the fists of fire, greased lightning, and generally quicker skill speed can compensate THAT much.

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Originally Posted by GurrenLagann

Birds

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Can I play a Bird, too?

As for why people would want Monk over DRG, jumps are a possibility. Spineshatter and Dragonfire aren't -as- risky to use as the regular Jump, but since it is still an animation lock... Yeah.

Monk indeed has Mantra, which is nice, but not much else from what I know. Probably Monk for fights without much pause to keep greased lightning up most of the time (this is the key between a decent monk and a good monk I feel, too, since it's your main damage buff) and then DRG for the more pause-heavy fights in combination with a Bard for Disembowel bonus.

That's just how I see it of course. I've played Dragoon waaaay more than Monk so I may be forgetting some crucial things here.

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Originally Posted by Muzetta

Can I play a Bird, too?

As for why people would want Monk over DRG, jumps are a possibility. Spineshatter and Dragonfire aren't -as- risky to use as the regular Jump, but since it is still an animation lock... Yeah.

Monk indeed has Mantra, which is nice, but not much else from what I know. Probably Monk for fights without much pause to keep greased lightning up most of the time (this is the key between a decent monk and a good monk I feel, too, since it's your main damage buff) and then DRG for the more pause-heavy fights in combination with a Bard for Disembowel bonus.

That's just how I see it of course. I've played Dragoon waaaay more than Monk so I may be forgetting some crucial things here.

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Yeah I call them Birds ;p. But yeah in my honest opinion it's probably Dragoon's jumps that makes most people don't want a Dragoon in their party or favouritism.

A Mnk at i107+ is able to deal pass 500dps, while Drg only able to push to 420+ max.

Don't you think this is too unfair to the DRG job?

Nah. It's because Ninjas are overrated.

Oh wait...

Can DRGs no longer burst far more effectively as MNKs, or are we talking about DPS over a sustained period of time?

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Originally Posted by ShinkuTachi

Can DRGs no longer burst far more effectively as MNKs, or are we talking about DPS over a sustained period of time?

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Not really with correct cool downs monk burst isn't too different.

lol big numbers

DRG will never outDPS MNK.

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Originally Posted by Frizbeez

A Mnk at i107+ is able to deal pass 500dps, while Drg only able to push to 420+ max.

Don't you think this is too unfair to the DRG job?

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lol 500 DPS

Go get real life please, you need to break a bit, nice and easy

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Originally Posted by Shori

I'm surprised at this since doesnt DRG have a 330-impact move? Think most monk has is 190. :/ I'd be realy surprised if the fists of fire, greased lightning, and generally quicker skill speed can compensate THAT much.

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You would be very surprised then. In a Patchwerk-style fight, Monk is the best damage dealer bar none.

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Originally Posted by Mardel

Not really with correct cool downs monk burst isn't too different.

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Hmmm, I wonder what I'm doing wrong then (outside of times when I use my PB, BfB~IR, STR Pot to burst sometimes). Our DRG in my group can out burst me, but once I have GL3 up and work my rotations, I out DPS my entire raid.

Yeah the disparity is insane lol

Not even at 110 the MNK in our FC does 500 in T8.

Its nuts.

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Originally Posted by ShinkuTachi

Hmmm, I wonder what I'm doing wrong then (outside of times when I use my PB, BfB~IR, STR Pot to burst sometimes). Our DRG in my group can out burst me, but once I have GL3 up and work my rotations, I out DPS my entire raid.

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I didn't say monk could out do the drg burst. I was saying it wouldn't be too different, in other works monk isn't too far behind if they have things like perfect balance. Which in the end, still gives monk the advantage.

It's really simple honestly, Drgs can get to max dps within a couple moves, Mnks take a good while longer, so in fights where u cant attack anything for a bit, mnk will lose a lot of dps.

In majority of ScoB MNK is capable of pushing so far ahead of the DRG that the damage increase to Bard from Disembowel doesn't lift a candle to it. DRG still has its place in fights where fighting has ceased, but a good MNK will always do superior damage to DRG (unless RNG hates them). One thing you will more likely never see is 2 DRGs, but people stack MNKs all the time for a reason.

I think it's all about job utility. Sure, a Monk may out-DPS a Dragoon...but a Dragoon provides a buff to other piercing DPS classes. Sure, a bard doesn't provide as much DPS as a Black Mage, but they have the tools that allow for Black Mages and Summoners to output more DPS, as well as regenerate MP for the casters.

So essentially, what one job loses out for solo-play (DPS), they gain in team-play (team roles). That's just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Mardel

I didn't say monk could out do the drg burst. I was saying it wouldn't be too different, in other works monk isn't too far behind if they have things like perfect balance. Which in the end, still gives monk the advantage.

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True; however, I don't agree with the latter part. PB is on its own cooldown (180 sec), so it's not something we can just pop off as we please or something like that. Because of what it does, and its recast, it has to be used pretty wisely.

I didnt read all the replies, But i personally think a DRGs DPS is a little lower then a MNKs is because a DRG can increase the Raids overall DPS by giving 10% Boost to pierce damage for the Bard in your group, you have to take into consideration how much DPS a DRG is contributing to the overall Raid because of that. and a MNK doesnt have anything like this.

I'm pretty sure that Monks are balanced with the expectation that they'll lose their stacks here and there in fights. Thus, in fights like T8 where it's nearly impossible to lose them, Monks are the top DPS period.

Monks constantly complain about being "forced" to lose their stacks on many fights, but that's probably completely intended when one considers how few long "target dummy" fights there really are among the bosses.

People need to stop with the disembowel buffs bards bs. Monks are so easy to play and do far more single target damage than not only Dragoons but every other class in the game. Monks need to have every buff they received in 2.1 rolled back immediately.

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Originally Posted by KandyKitten

I think it's all about job utility. Sure, a Monk may out-DPS a Dragoon...but a Dragoon provides a buff to other piercing DPS classes. Sure, a bard doesn't provide as much DPS as a Black Mage, but they have the tools that allow for Black Mages and Summoners to output more DPS, as well as regenerate MP for the casters.

So essentially, what one job loses out for solo-play (DPS), they gain in team-play (team roles). That's just my opinion.

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Well, a monk does increase another monk's damage by around 3-5% because only one will have to dragon kick and the other one will boot shine. I play DRG and WAR in coil 2 we run: pld, sch, whm, smn, smn, mnk, brd, drg (i war t6/7). I dabble in monk during off times and pre-coil 2 I did extensive testing on dummies.

My test was me + brd vs mnk + brd. It turned out the damage was nearly the same, the mnk + brd could edge out the drg + brd sometimes.

Now, if you take a comp with a mnk/brd/drg and replace the drg... giving you mnk/mnk/brd , the damage will be superior because now one of the monks will be doing 3-5% more damage because of bootshine over dragon kick. Only if you heavily stack piercing jobs does the benefit of disembowel come into play. So if you have drg/brd/brd or drg/drg/brd do you obtain a stronger comp, and sadly it may not even that much better. Part of the problem is that dragoon is FORCED to always apply disembowel. There isn't a stronger/better alternative while monk has the choice of applying dragon kick and can avoid it if it's already up.

With ninja potentially slashing on the horizon there maybe less meaning to drgs if the damage difference keeps widening. It maybe the new blm of dps when the time comes.

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Originally Posted by Frizbeez

A Mnk at i107+ is able to deal pass 500dps, while Drg only able to push to 420+ max.

Don't you think this is too unfair to the DRG job?

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Im sittin at 450 on a dummy without party buff or food by beein 106 on my drag ?

Keep in mind that monks are just the kings single target and thats how you deal with the issue. That and when you have to burst down things really super super fast, good luck with your monk. Sure he ll be able to deal a bit of help on that department but its nowhere near what smns / drg / bard can do

Who cares about DRG, y'all don't even have a dragon *SHAZAAM MONK PUNCH!"

I play MNK because MNK is fun. If they were the worst DPS in the game I'd still play a MNK. Dragoons are boring.

DRGs have around a 35-40 combo that they need to follow for maximum and most efficient DPS. Monks have around a 16 combo that they need to follow in order to pump out max DPS.

DRGs have the better spike damage (Blood for Blood, innately high Crit, and Internal Release followed by above mentioned 40ish button combo) that can come in handy during short fights (or things like T6 or other constant "damage the boss only" phases.

Monks on the other hand have greater sustained damage. Meaning that we can hit for the same numbers more consistently and for a longer period of time. With Blood for Blood, Internal Release, and Fists of Fire up Monks can generally hit a string of crits for around 700-1100 damage a piece (with ilvl 100+ using Glanz/Animus/High Allagan)

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Originally Posted by LordMaitreya

People need to stop with the disembowel buffs bards bs. Monks are so easy to play and do far more single target damage than not only Dragoons but every other class in the game. Monks need to have every buff they received in 2.1 rolled back immediately.

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Pretty sure you're a troll, but... I'll respond anyways.

Rolling back those buffs would cripple the class and make Monks immediately go to bottom of the DPS list.

Seriously.

Think about what you say before you say them.

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Originally Posted by Pylfer

Pretty sure you're a troll, but... I'll respond anyways.

Rolling back those buffs would cripple the class and make Monks immediately go to bottom of the DPS list.

Seriously.

Think about what you say before you say them.

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No sir I am serious. Monks have been overpowered for so long now you and many other Monks have developed a sense of entitlement towards being overpowered. Rolling them back would far from cripple them.

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Originally Posted by Frizbeez

I guess people are aware how much dps a MNK is capable to dish out at iLvl 110 vs a DRG with the same iLvl.

The difference is insane.

Why all the love to MNK and not DRG?

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I out dmg mnks usually by 20 dps or so for second coil fights.

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Originally Posted by Ruri

I out dmg mnks usually by 20 dps or so for second coil fights.

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Unless you're way overgeared...you're playing with some really, really bad MNK.

Same gear and skill, MNK do about 8-10% more DPS than a DRG (and no, BRD DPS from Dis doesn't make up for it. Its basic math). Fight mechanics can change that, but on a striking dummy (or T8) that is definitely true.

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Originally Posted by KandyKitten

I think it's all about job utility. Sure, a Monk may out-DPS a Dragoon...but a Dragoon provides a buff to other piercing DPS classes. Sure, a bard doesn't provide as much DPS as a Black Mage, but they have the tools that allow for Black Mages and Summoners to output more DPS, as well as regenerate MP for the casters.

So essentially, what one job loses out for solo-play (DPS), they gain in team-play (team roles). That's just my opinion.

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lol what? I will uninstall this game the moment a BLM outdamages me (BRD) on raid content. I've never been outdamaged by any job other than MNK, and BLM is very far behind. The buff should close the gap some, but there is a reason they are getting buffed...

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Originally Posted by LordMaitreya

No sir I am serious. Monks have been overpowered for so long now you and many other Monks have developed a sense of entitlement towards being overpowered. Rolling them back would far from cripple them.

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1.0 = Monks were the least used and least powerful class in the game.
2.0 = Monks were second to LNC/DRG in terms of DPS and below SMNs and at times BRD/BLM.
2.1 = Monks got minor buffs to scaling that boosted their DPS to allow them to A) match others and B) in most cases (when played properly) out DPS them

Removing those buffs would basically just move them back down the list.

What I'm reading here is that because MNKs do a little more DPS than you, you are butt hurt and if DRG can't be best then it's time to make grandiose statements about nerfing the butts off of other classes.

You know SMNs in T6, T7, T8, and T9 because of DoTs and Garuda also put out DPS that's just as high as the MNK.

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Originally Posted by LordMaitreya

Rolling them back would far from cripple them.

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You probably don't understand the gravity of this statement for you to be making this.

Well, if I had to wear ugly power ranger armor I'd want to out dps everyone else too. Being a dragoon is punishment enough.

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Originally Posted by 16bitBounty

Well, if I had to wear ugly power ranger armor I'd want to out dps everyone else too. Being a dragoon is punishment enough.

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Rather than some tatty rags?

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Originally Posted by 16bitBounty

Well, if I had to wear ugly power ranger armor I'd want to out dps everyone else too. Being a dragoon is punishment enough.

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Originally Posted by Skyl1n3

Rather than some tatty rags?

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Armor really has nothing to do with anything. Last I checked they added a vanity system :p

Sounds like overreaction to me.

Honestly, this type of situation, where Monks are completely outshining DRGs, only happens in specific situations at the absolute peak of play from all involved. And in the end, it does, in fact, ignore all the utility Dragoon itself brings to the table (stun, on-demand slow, Party-Wide Piercing bonus, superior mobility.) This is on top of having what is effectively a more stable damage in circumstances where the monk cannot maintain stacks.

So, given all these, I am ok that the top .1% of Monks consistently out perform DRG. Personally I am more concerned with my own personal performance than some game restrictions. Most can't even hit that cap. If I can dole out enough damage to pass the DPS checks required of me for my runs, then that's what matters. If the disparity really does become glaring, it will be put in check.

In the meanwhile, lets not cry wolf quite yet.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

snip

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And a DRG comes in to be the voice of reason, thank you ^_^

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Sounds like overreaction to me.

Honestly, this type of situation, where Monks are completely outshining DRGs, only happens in specific situations at the absolute peak of play from all involved. And in the end, it does, in fact, ignore all the utility Dragoon itself brings to the table (stun, on-demand slow, Party-Wide Piercing bonus, superior mobility.) This is on top of having what is effectively a more stable damage in circumstances where the monk cannot maintain stacks.


So, given all these, I am ok that the top .1% of Monks consistently out perform DRG. Personally I am more concerned with my own personal performance than some game restrictions. Most can't even hit that cap. If I can dole out enough damage to pass the DPS checks required of me for my runs, then that's what matters. If the disparity really does become glaring, it will be put in check.

In the meanwhile, lets not cry wolf quite yet.

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Right? Everyone should just be more internally oriented about this stuff... Like "Can I get geared and perform my rotation well enough to hit an average of 400+ DPS?" If yes than be proud that you can do that. DRG's in gear can totally hit 450 DPS if not higher if they do their rotation properly and focus on their performance. Does it matter if a Monk, DOING THAT EXACT SAME THING (focusing solely on their own skill and DPS output) can do a few more points of DPS over time?

It just seems like people are arguing that because LNC/DRG isn't better than MNK that something has gone horribly horribly wrong.

Look at WoW. That game goes through so many patches, and each patch usually has one DPS, Tank, and Healer class moving into the "Top Tier". Who's to say that 3.0 won't have DRGs doing 700 DPS while MNK sits at a lowly and terribly frowned upon 680 DPS.