Ruin 1 vs Ruin 2

As a scholar main I'll be the first to admit that I don't know everything there is about DPSing, so when I noticed other scholars at level 50 still using Ruin 1 I was curious as to the benefits of it and decided to ask my FC mates about it. One fellow was helpful, saying it saves on MP compared to Ruin 2, which is what I had figured. Then another guy chimes in, saying that it isn't worth using Ruin 2 more than once per fight, for the initial blind, and stating that using it in any other way is wrong and a "bad habit" that needs to be corrected. This struck me not only as condescending, but somewhat wrong as well. Here's my thoughts on the matter:

-Ruin 1 has a cast time, Ruin 2 is instant. Since dodging AoE effects is a major mechanic in this game, you can expect that plenty of times you'll have to interrupt your spells in order to dodge. If I have to cancel a ruin spell to move, I've missed out on doing some damage I would otherwise be landing if I had used Ruin 2.

-Yet again, Ruin 2 is instant. Sure it's the same power and can be cast at the same frequency as Ruin 1, but there are obviously some advantages to the damage coming at the beginning of a 2 and a half second wait rather than after. Take the gaols in the Titan fight for instance: using Ruin 2 you can get your DPS out that much faster, and sometimes that little bit matters when it comes to saving a healer from being crushed.

-There are a TON of fights that won't even begin to drain your MP pool that badly, especially if you properly rotate aetherflows. On fights that aren't healing intensive, I'll usually use my aetherflow stacks to dump Energy Drains as well (nothing better than Virus > ED > Ruin 2 > ED > Ruin 2 > ED > Ruin 2, as a scholar at least). Seriously though, who runs out of MP?

-Seems like the ONLY time it would be worth it to use Ruin 1 is in a fight you KNOW you're going to have a problem with MP. Too bad you still see i90+ people spamming it against trash mobs in dungeons like CM. Why try to save MP you're never gonna use? To me, THAT is a bad habit.

So what are the thoughts of my fellow Ruiners? Am I completely wrong in my reasoning, or should I keep on using Ruin 2 with no regard for human life?

Edit: Thanks for that helpful bit of info about the character limit!!!

was hoping to see some comments about your question.
As to character limits, write the whole thing and then copy 4/5ths of it; deleting it from the post, THEN edit your post and paste the rest in and it no longer has character limit

1. I prefer "Ruinist". "Ruiners" are those people that complain about silly things like your sch not setting protect in low lvl tam-tara instead of going "oh yay sch, no way in hell we can die here now and maybe they'll even dps to make the dungeon faster!"
2. Can be hard to anticipate random deaths, unless you're weaving off-gcd moves in and not in need of mobility, there's not really a point to using ruin 2. As far as ED goes, SMN has fester, so ED is really only used for quick bursts on things you can't get dots on effectively. (healer gaols in titan ex, etc)
3. You can edit your original post to go past 1k characters instead of using up 3 posts, daily post limits etc. (also, if/when you do hit your "daily post limit" deleting posts doesn't put you back under the limit)

Use Ruin 2 for weaving around oGCD abilities (Ruin 2 + Fester; Ruin 2 + Rouse; etc), spam Ruin 1 whenever you have nothing to do.

That's really all there is to it

It's the same as SMN. If you know you'll need to move soon, use Ruin II and optionally weave Energy Drain during GCD, otherwise Ruin because it costs less MP and you can cancel cast if needed - although Lustrate sort of makes that moot.

Still, if it's a fight that you're not going to run out of MP, why would you risk dealing less DPS due to an interrupted ruin? And let's say you're in a hypothetical fight that spawns 10 sorta low hp mobs and everyone is focusing on one mob at a time, and it gets to a point where one shot will kill a mob; You start to cast Ruin 1, and a second later another DPS uses an instant ability and hits it first. Not only are you missing out on your own damage, but the other DPS had to use an ability to make up for your slowness, when he could have already targeted to next mob in line with the same ability. Just saying, if you're going to be that nitpickey about saving MP, why not be that way about you and your groups potential DPS output?

Your hypothetical situation of mobs dying before Ruin can finish casting only applies to trash or adds. If you're talking about trash mobs and dungeons, Ruin II away, it doesn't matter. Otherwise, there's no difference in DPS as they both have the same recast and same potency. I also had Coil or EX Primals in mind when I typed that.

And go play SMN if you think there's no difference between Ruin and Ruin II spamming.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zelth

..Then another guy chimes in, saying that it isn't worth using Ruin 2 more than once per fight, for the initial blind...

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I think that's bcoz many old strategy advise players only use Ruin1, and let the tanks manage the blind effect (flash for blind as needs)..etc
So strictly, initial blind should not be necessary as well.

I have some ideas just of fun, the sound effect of Ruin1 is more significant and it indicates that I am busy in DPSing,
it makes me feel I am more experienced by avoiding Ruin2 as I prevent to make the mob resists blind, and do same dmg with less mp. ^^;

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

Your hypothetical situation of mobs dying before Ruin can finish casting only applies to trash or adds. If you're talking about trash mobs and dungeons, Ruin II away, it doesn't matter. Otherwise, there's no difference in DPS as they both have the same recast and same potency. I also had Coil or EX Primals in mind when I typed that.

And go play SMN if you think there's no difference between Ruin and Ruin II spamming.

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If you're talking about trash mobs and dungeons you're more likely using bliz 2 instead of either.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

Your hypothetical situation of mobs dying before Ruin can finish casting only applies to trash or adds. If you're talking about trash mobs and dungeons, Ruin II away, it doesn't matter. Otherwise, there's no difference in DPS as they both have the same recast and same potency. I also had Coil or EX Primals in mind when I typed that.

And go play SMN if you think there's no difference between Ruin and Ruin II spamming.

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That's the thing, when i see other scholars doing it, it's usually on trash mobs. When I asked about it I got "Yeah, you should be using Ruin 1 all the time, every time", and as I described, I just didn't think that was the case. Also I'm speaking strictly from a SCH point of view, I prioritize healing over all so I'm not about to expend an entire MP pool on dps... like ever. I imagine a SMN plays different with trying to keep 100% DoT uptime and whatnot, so I concede that Ruin 1 might be the right way to go, but I don't play SMN :D

Edit: Heck, Coil and EX Primals have more "dodge the circle" mechanics than anything. I'd rather see a slightly diminished MP bar (it's never empty anyways) and my moves on cooldown than an interrupted spell. One is progress, no matter how small, and the other is a complete failure you could have prevented. I still believe Ruin 2 is the statistically safer choice 90% of the time (for a SCH).

Use it for this combo, ruin, ruin ii, drain, it works awesome, also u can use ruin ii while running to a target, then use miasma 2, throw a potent poison potion too, u can do various combinations

Either Ruin spell is basically filler for your DPS rotation, anyway.

Ruin 1 is fine and economical if you have literally nothing better to do than sit there and cast your mini-nuke. Seeing as I usually have something better to do, I don't end up using Ruin 1 often.

Ruin 2, as previously stated, is perfect for weaving between oGCD abilities and for adding slight DPS while staying as mobile as possible. When you need to poop out that extra little bit of damage ASAP, aren't concerned with building Blind resistance, and can't be bothered to sit there and cast Ruin 1, this is the perfect filler. Personally I find the MP cost negligible; any fight where you are able to DPS so much that you are casting a lot of Ruin spells probably isn't a fight where you are liable to run out of MP under any circumstances.

I like to use Ruin II in my mitigation skill set. The little bit of damage from it is just a bonus, but the REAL cherry on top is the fact that it's instant and Blinds. For mitigation reasons alone why wouldn't you use Ruin II? As a SCH our primary job is to mitigate incoming damage.

to me its r2 when the blind will trigger, r1 when it wont

r2 when dodging only really if you're in a dps check and might fail it, otherwise thats a good time to look for stragglers that took unnecessary damage from it

Dunno what you guys are doing... Never run out of mana with Ruin 2 Spam... We aren't SMN with way less mana and we don't use stacks for fester. (Only for Lustrate if its rly needed...)
So there shouldn't be any reason to run out of mana with ruin 2 o.ô

If you think the blind from Ruin 2 is making any meaningful difference for mitigation beyond Titan Hard and dungeon bosses (for both of which it will not see much mileage due to the diminishing returns changes compared to its original state), you're highly overrating it in that regard.

The only time I use ruin 2 as a healer is when I'm solo and its usually coupled with ruin 1....
So I cast ruin 1 then use ruin 2 so from my POV I shoot 2 ruins in quick succession.

The only other time I use ruin 2 is if I have to kite something and heals are taken care of by eos/Selene

I don't bother with Ruin, only R2. The longer cast time is pointless, and if I've got to move quick, I'd rather not be interrupted. The increase in mp is negligible, mana never runs dry with Aetherflow.

If you are DPS'ing in cleric stance as a scholar and have time to use ruin that means there's not much healing involved so you are using energy drain. In this case the MP doesn't really matter.

One nice advantage of using ruin II over ruin I is that you can auto-attack as well. If you are in melee range of the boss (a good example is rafflesia) you can use ruin II to also auto-attack so your "potency" increases. Ruin II gives you opportunities to weave and move and is overall more flexible. It really doesn't matter for a scholar. It does matter for summoners because they have so little MP.

Personally, I use Ruin I for the most part.

I'll only use Ruin II if I need to be quickly dodging AoEs, as the MP cost can be quite draining, especially in some of the later dungeons.

I like the benefit of Ruin II blinding the enemies, but it's only for around 5 seconds, so it is only useful in the short term, unless you keep casting it.

There is definitely benefits to both spells, and I certainly made use of Ruin II in solo instances of the story, where I could only rely on myself (I know that there's AIs in most of the story battles, but generally they are pretty bad).

If you use Ruin as a SCH, I'm sorry, but you are absolutely terrible. There are so many advantages using Ruin II over Ruin as a SCH I don't even know where to start:

1 - Instant cast, no aoe will ever force you to interrupt this spell.
2 - Can autoattack once per Ruin II, meaning every Ruin II will have around a potency of ~100-105 instead of 80.
3 - Can do emergency healing in case someone takes damage without having to interrupt anything. You are just say casting your Ruins II against a boss, tank gets a big hit, ac lustrate <tt>. If you were casting Ruin, you'd have to interrupt the cast and cast lustrate, a lot more trouble.
4 - The 3 reasons I gave above should suffice. The mobility you gain from using Ruin II over Ruin should really just be enough, despite mobility not being the only significant advantage you obtain from using Ruin II over Ruin. What is more, if you are running out of mana with a 4500 SCH because you are using Ruin II, uninstall.