New tank: keeping hate

I'm new to, FFXIV, but previously have tanked quite a bit of content in TOR. I'm not a particularly special tank, but I'm competent.

I'm struggling with enmity in early dungeons - I was able to take it at the beginning, but in a longer fight it was inevitable that I lost it. In each run I had a Summoner (I think) whose Carbuncle kept taking agro from at least one enemy, usually a completely different one to the one the other DPS and I were hitting. I don't know if this is just the player targeting the wrong thing, not having control or bad tanking - what do you think?

My rotation is fairly simple - lob, flash x2, savage combo. Mix in a flash every few combos to keep area agro and try to tab target where I feel i's safe, although if I do that I'd usually lose agro on the main mob I was taking. Has anyone got tips for early tanking? It's especially frustrating to not be able to get agro back if I lose it, even from a pet by hammering all my (apparently) high threat abilities.

Hi,
The tank section might give you more insight about it.
You seem to do it right. Some issues might be :
- Dps focus on different main targets (I advise you mark priority target)
- Dps highly overgeared comparing to you. (As tank it is less forgiving not keeping as much up to date your equipment you can)

Maybe you know but control aggro with enmity bar on each mob so you know which one you might be loosing aggro to(it is not well explained in game)
When you target an enemy this is where you control how much each of your party members have aggro.
In this picture Tank has aggro, next in line is lancer, then pugilist and lastly heal
http://eorzeareborn.com/wp-content/u...mity-Meter.jpg
This helps to know where you must focus your combos.

You have experience, so you will learn how different classes work, who AoE, who lands DoTs on all targets etc..

Enjoy :)

Thanks for the tips, unfortunately I can't post in the tank forum yet due to my character's level (21GLA/8CNJ).

I knew about the enemy list red yellow green indicator, but not the detailed indicator, so I'll keep an eye on that. I do suspect gear may be an issue - the average level on my gear is 12, but I can't seem to find details any better at vendors and my legs, chest, head and feet are all dungeon drops. A better main hand might help I guess.

Does it get easier once you have more abilities (the lack of a taunt is very alien to me) or is tanking just harsh?

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Originally Posted by Thaliss

Hi,
The tank section might give you more insight about it.
You seem to do it right. Some issues might be :
- Dps focus on different main targets (I advise you mark priority target)

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I cannot tell you how important this point is. Mark. So many times has the other DPS beside me fought another monster that the Tank isn't actively holding aggro for thus becomes focused and the group wipes because Healer's attention becomes divided.

If you see more than 1 monster taking damage (aside from AOE), tell the group to focus. It's an easy enough thing to spot and even easier to fix.

For people that may have higher gear, it's possible to spot them as they may have a circle with a zagged line near their level. If they do keep getting focused, you'll have to explain to them to cool their jets and lighten up on their DPS.

Dead DPS = No DPS

Something to throw out, was the ACN using Yellow Carby? If so, that's probably why you're having tanking issues. Yellow is a tank type and at low levels it's kind of ridiculous at pulling hate.

Use the market board to buy gear if you can't find any from the NPC vendors. It may be a bit more costly, but keeping your gear up to date is important.
If you get into a party with an ACN and he has his yellow carbuncle out, ask him to swap it.

What the others said. Also archers and bards can pull aggro fast - even with the same level of gear So if you have those in group do mark so that they focus. Sometimes DPS just zone out and don't notice that something happens - happened to me at times as well.

And yes yellow carby will tank asd will titan-egi later on - this can be fun in funruns with no tanks but beyond that I can imagine how hard it must be - still on my todo list do tanking.

Sounds like you have the right idea. I've been tanking for months and I still lose enmity to other players all the time, so I wouldn't feel like you're doing something especially wrong, it's normal not to hold everything in a mob 100% of the time, I've heard that this game is harder to keep hate than others. You get the skill provoke quite early if I recall, and that's the one for pulling something back. Before you have that, yes it might be impossible to catch up if somebody gets far ahead of you on a particular monster, so you just look at those enmity bars when you focus target and make sure nobody gets ahead on anything.

Hope things start pulling up for you :)
As stated above, there are two classes that can cause problems. I am currently playing both, though played Arcanist to high levels at launch on a different character:
*Archers can deal out a lot of damage sometimes too quickly for you to hold on to, if they're not paying attention to their own emnity.
* Arcanists (and summoners) have a couple ways to cause problems. if their pet isn't green or red, they're using a tanking pet. Tell them to change it! Arcanists also have a tendency to place dots on the other targets, as it maximizes their damage. At higher levels, they have an ability that spreads their dots without having to do it manually.

There are also things you might not know about certain monster priority that the dps are following, that they deem will take too long to explain. ie, bombs as a general rule or in Halatali the Doctors and Pythons (which healers usually prefer downed first because of poison) This kind of thing requires you to learn in steps, an as you go kinda thing.

90% of the time, if you ask them to focus/why they're going after that one type first; they'll explain why. Then either order can adjust and move on.

Thanks for all the advice.

I'll certainly look into upgrading my weapons at least, I think my sword is probably still about level 11 as there weren't any dropping from quests etc. I'm quite used to being able to just have enemies stick to me once I've started hitting them a bit, probably because of the extra threat stances give in TOR - it'll be more familiar with shield oath.

I'll keep an eye on the colour of Carbuncle too - I can't remember if it was green or yellow.

Yes, definitely keep your gear up to date as much as possible (and not just your armour, your weapon and shield are equally important, because half your hate generation comes from how much damage you do with your weaponskill combos - i.e. Fast Blade-Savage-Blade-Rage of Halone, and your shield is basically your life. The stronger it is the less damage you'll take and the better you'll be able to protect your party).

And speaking of gear, even though generic Disciple of War armour might have appealing stat boosts like STR and Determination, ignore them - it's better to go for specific tank gear like heavy armour or plate armour which only GLA/PLDs and MRD/WARs can equip. This is because these armours have higher defense and VIT, which means all the difference between living and dying horribly. If you've been doing the class quests for GLA given to you by Mylla at the Collesseum you should be getting new weapons for free every five levels or so, so check your Armoury Chest to see if you have a better weapon available to equip.

I've definitely completed the level 15 quest to get shield lob, but I think the level 20 is still outstanding. I'll take a look later on and run it once I get my chocobo (I hope). I'll look at armour too as I'm definitely using generic DoW gear.

You get Provoke at Lv. 22 gladiator. Keep in mind the skill description as it is a tenuous aggro and requires a followup (usually shield lob or halone/butcher).

As for your enmity, I would suggest you simply up your damage using "Fight or Flight" in the initial pull. Until Lv.26, you do not have any large enmity generating abilities. At best, they hold enmity stable. So this is a good temporary measure until then. It also helps to have a head start for the lowest level dungeons, and most experienced players will let you get off 2 flashes and your first savageblade combo before they start up (arcanists may start casting their dots immediately though).

You can use marks and most players will follow them. Some players don't, so a number of tanks have also gotten in to the habit of using "flash" 2 or 3 times initially or interspersed in their first fight-or-flight + savageblade combo. They then just tab through targets and keep that initial hate on all enemies and it works with most groups. You'll pick up more tricks as you just get more experience.

Also don't take too many comments about your tanking to heart. Players tend to be hyper-critical of tanks and it can be depressing if you're still new to the unique mechanics of enmity. You already have experience in mmos, so there isn't anything groundbreaking. Just take your time to learn the nuances, and feel free to ask questions if you need something clarified.

Best of luck and have fun.

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Originally Posted by Kydi

In each run I had a Summoner (I think) whose Carbuncle kept taking agro from at least one enemy, usually a completely different one to the one the other DPS and I were hitting.

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This sounds as though the arcanist or summoner wasn't maintaining proper control of his/her pet. If Carbuncle (or any of the -egi pets summoners get) has been put into an aggressive stance, but then not given a specific target, it will choose a random target on its own. This will also happen if it was specifically Sicced on one target but after that target died it wasn't told its next target (since the aggressive stance portion of the "Sic" command continues after its targeting is no longer valid). At low levels, an arcanist should at least Sic their pet on the priority target in every fight, and on the next priority when that one dies. Then, as they advance a bit further, they should start getting further into controlling individual pet actions. It sounds like you dealt with players who weren't even controlling which target their pets should attack.

To make matters worse, that aggro indicator on the party list (as Thaliss's image shows in the first reply above) will only include pets for the ACN/SMN/SCH who summoned them. The tank can't see what aggro another player's pet is getting until its too late and he's stuck tracking down the mob on whom he's lost primary aggro.

The weapon damage rating on your sword should significantly boost your enmity generation since the more damage Savage Blade does the larger of a bonus hate spike you get. It also apparently affects how much enmity you get from things like Flash as well.

Another piece of advice is to take note of when the enemy you are attacking is near-death. Usually when an enemy is at around 10-20% or so it's safe to move onto the next target since even if a DPS pulls hate at that point they likely won't have to take a hit. When I was still practicing tanking I would only use one mark to keep my hotbars clean so I got used to switching to my next target right before the first one died.

Hmm, it doesn't look like I'm particularly undergeared as the rewards for the level 20 quests I'm doing at the moment are worse than my current gear. I did the gladiator quest and only gained 1 weapon damage.

Weapon damage tends to trump everything in this game (as far as weapons go). +1 damage is the equivalent of +8 STR or whatever main stat you use for alt chars. You will definitely notice the difference in enmity as a gladiator.

Ah OK, I didn't realise it was that significant. I guess that extra point is about 10% strength then. I'm nearly at the stage where I can join a grand company - am I right in saying their gear is actually pretty good? Should I grind tokens for a bit to get kitted in that? I'm planning on joining Maelstrom as I hear they're the most tank-y.

Probs obvious, but did you apply all your bonus attribute points? I forgot for about 7-8 levels and it made a huge difference. People say go for all VIT, but because I'm a tight ass about buying good gear and would rather the healer have stress keeping me up than me have stress keeping aggro I chucked a load into strength :P hehe Seriously though, I do have a most points going into VIT now since aggro control got a lot easier after my WAR job upgrade.

Yep, made sure I applied all the upgrade points. I put them in vitality on the basis that strength seemed to increase fairly quickly anyway and a bucket of extra HP is always nice. By the sounds of it, gear is just the key factor for me unfortunately. I'll just have to keep an eye and make sure I've got the best I can manage rather than making so.

You may have to look on the market board every once in awhile for newer gear.

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Originally Posted by Kydi

I'm nearly at the stage where I can join a grand company - am I right in saying their gear is actually pretty good? Should I grind tokens for a bit to get kitted in that?

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The gear is pretty decent (roughly on par with the good dungeon drops at most levels), but at the beginning it takes a while to accumulate GC Seals, and there's some other things you'll want them for as well. I (and most players I've talked to) put the first 2,000 seals they earn towards getting a chocobo mount (and thus unlocking the mount system as a whole). That's usually a pretty high priority. After that, it's between buying gear or buying higher ranks in the Grand Company. (The first rank increase costs 2,000 seals, the next one 3,000, then 4,000, etc.) Higher ranks give you access to a wider selection of gear and items you can buy from them.

Personally, I chose to put my seals towards ranking up for as long as that was available. At around my early to mid-30's in level, I reached the point where the next rank up requires a level 45 quest, so I stopped ranking up and the seals started to accumulate. At 38, I hit the cap on how many GC seals I could hold at a time, so that's when I started spending them more freely, buying a level 39 bow and gloves, as well as some venture tokens and cosmetic armor for my chocobo.

How quickly you accumulate GC seals may vary. I got a lot of mine by turning in GC Supply and Provisioning missions that come with crafting and gathering classes. The other major sources are FATEs and Duty Roulette. So whether you craft and whether you spend much time FATE grinding can make a big impact on how long it takes to accumulate GC seals.

If you haven't made your GC decision yet, don't pick a GC you don't like just because it seems best for whatever class you are currently playing. The gear is only useful until you hit the level cap and then it is vastly outclassed and/or you have a lot of better alternatives. The GC gear is more useful for alternate classes anyway.

Of course if you like the one that offers the gear you want then it's win/win =P

Hmm, perhaps I'll rethink the GC then. How significant is the choice in terms of Story? Is there any particular one people say is significantly better/worse? My original intention was to have once character for magic, one for melee DPS and one for tanking, hence the Maelstrom with this character...

How much of an improvement would the gear be over what I can get through normal dungeons etc?

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Originally Posted by Kydi

How significant is the choice in terms of Story?

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I have a character in each of the three Grand Companies, but two of them haven't gotten much further than that in the main storyline and none of them have reached endgame. As far as I've seen, there has been one significant storyline event that I've dealt with as part of the Grand Company, but it was essentially the same event in each case, with the only differences being where it took place and which NPCs assisted with it.

There are more significant storyline differences in the first 15 levels of the game based on your starting city (in turn based on your starting class), but unless it changes with events I haven't reached yet, I don't think the GC selection has much impact on the story. Past level 15, differences seem limited to an occasional quest where you deal with different NPCs depending on where you are and who you know, and even those differences are few and far between.

Your choice only affects a few quests. Also, you can change later.

Also, there's no real point in making three different characters. Nor is there a point in matching GC to class, as most of the gear that matters is available in all 3.

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Originally Posted by Kydi

How much of an improvement would the gear be over what I can get through normal dungeons etc?

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The gear can be useful sometimes as usually they are higher item level than their equip level (so your character is slightly stronger than they should normally be) and because of that they can be wearable for decent stretches of time, especially if it's one of the odd situations where an equip slot has no upgrade options for several levels.

However the dungeon drops are the same situation, higher level than their equip level, so they are also very powerful and worth holding onto for a long time. As an example, the level 32 sets that drop from Brayflox's Longstop are item level 34 and usable until the early 40's.

Really the warning against picking a GC you don't like is because you can not only do everything on one character and in some cases is much more beneficial(stat allocation is separate per class, you have access to cross-class skills, classes that aren't your highest get a 50% xp boost), past level 15 the story between all 3 is largely the same as someone has mentioned. While the gear you can use from the grand companies is nice for its level, all three have gear for all classes and none of it is anything that you can use post-storyline where a bulk of the content lies. Changing grand companies to one that you do like is a time consuming process as you have to rank up all over again.

The mechanical benefit is just not worth it as it loses all value once you reach the level cap and you probably would enjoy yourself more being part of the organization you like better and dealing with its people.

Ended up joining maelstrom in any case - pirates are cool and the other leaders were a little irritating.

They have the coolest barding too. You happened to join just in time. Frontlines is a feature coming in a week and it will feature 80v80v80 pvp between the three grand companies!

While it hasn't been important until now, please keep in mind your grand company affiliation if you are joining a pvp fc. You won't be able to party and play with friends (only on the battleground pvp maps) from a different grand company. You get one free transfer to another grand company, but it will cost you 10k gil afterwards. You are also unable to transfer your rank until you reach the rank of 2nd Lt (highest GC rank possible), although SE may give players a window to change for free and/or lower the requirements when patch 2.3 hits.

As others have mentioned, there is actually little difference between the three GCs other than their names, location, colour of their uniforms and the person who leads them. There is no real storyline with them either after the initial recruitment quest (there are a couple of sidequests given by them later, but all that is is a couple of dungeon runs with no actual story resolution given, that is required for promotion to the last two officer ranks, and a quick trip to the Wolves Den to unlock PvP).

So really, it just comes down to whichever you like the best rather than having a particular story or specific gear (and with Frontlines coming it may also be a good thing to go for the GC your friends are already in, as GC allegiance will restrict what team you end up on in Frontlines when it's released in a week.)

Also, early on the GC gear is not usually that good for tanking - especially the level 20 Private rank uniform, as it might have a lot of high across-the-board stat boosts, but actually doesn't have good defense, as per my earlier post. Other classes it's very useful though, but for tanks, you're better off getting a nice sturdy set of plate or heavy armour instead of the GC uniform.

It was definitely a gear problem. I upgraded my gear, got some heavy iron armour off the market and a new sword from the level 25 gladiator quest and ran a lowbie. Things were much easier. I'm up to 26 now and have halone, so will hopefully be able to start practicing a proper rotation now.

Congrats. Just FYI, keep in mind that Rage of Halone and the marauder's equivalent, butcher's block, produce the most enmity of all your attacks. Depending on the dps with you, it may be a good idea to open up with shield lob and/or a halone first before moving in to your flash and savageblade combos. Similarly, consider the same when reestablishing hate after a provoke.