This game needs depth, Please implement a second weapon (playstyle) for each job

Hi there guys,

I've been un-subbed since a month before the release of the Leviathan patch. The reason I left is because I got bored of playing my jobs and classes the same way. The only variety I experienced with my bard was merely upgrading gear and seeing more DPS output. This was interesting for a while, but got stale real fast, especially since everyone else was also forced into playing the same way.

I just recently tried out WoW, (good but nowhere near the potential that FFXIV has) and while playing, I couldn't help but continually tell myself things like, "Hmm, this system is just what FFXIV needs". The system I'm referring to is the ability to change specs. Wouldn't it be cool if a Paladin had the option of choosing between a sword and shield, greatsword (or hammer), or a staff? Or even just a choice of 2 weapons? This choice would alter the way you play the job (tank, DPS, healer), and would add variety and uniqueness to the game. It seems like a logical thing for an expansion but this would go against the philosophy that Yoshi seems to be operating under (simple). I believe a system like this could be implemented without complicating the game too much. In my opinion, this is the area in which this game fails miserably (depth and variety).

Do you guys think that this may be implemented at some point during the life of the game? It's probably what it would take to make me return. Thanks in advance for your responses guys.

I agree, the game needs more depth. But I don't think your suggestion would be easily implemented, given that they've based the entire class/job system around the weapon itself.
They could allow you to tweak your build more or to improve abilities via a talent spec, such as what you probably grew fond of in WOW.
Honestly though, this would be met with a lot of resistance from this community.

Technically, this is completely fulfilled by the fact you can change your job/class on the same character. Unless what you're getting at is something along the lines of a PLD using a bow to tank with... which just seems odd lol. Or even under the idea of role changing based on it, you already have that option, as I indicated on the first sentence. Unlike other games, your character, through changing weapons here (effectively changing your role/job/class), is actually doing exactly what you're thinking of.

The idea for multiple weapons could be interesting, but it'd certainly have to be VERY limited. This game, unlike others like WoW, is more about the flashiness of it than otherwise. The way this game is set up to play (slower/fluid action animation and combat than things like WoW) wouldn't allow for such options in the near future. Classes themselves would have to be altered, both abilities and stats, which really is just not going to happen here. FFXI also had things like this, and while it was fine at first, it kinda just came boiling down to a specific weapon type per job.

XI did this right. Jobs could use a range of different weapons, weaponskill was independent of your own level, you chose what to master and how fast.

If you want more specialization you'll have to wait for the expansion when they are supposed to add second jobs to each class.

That... sounds like the armoury system!? We'll get branching jobs per class eventually.

Honestly I would have thought they'd try to experiment with equipping two different weapons at the same time i.e one in main hand, the other in off hand for more customization, with the upcoming rogue/ninja class. It'd seem perfect for different "Poisons" being applied to each blade thus having more of a way to really focus dots. (Instead of just spamming every single dot onto a target you can weigh up what would be best in that situation, something I'd think would be useful for specific long boss fights.)

Hmm, my line of thinking was that with different weapons, come an entirely different set of skills with which to use for your current job. For example, a Paladin would have the option of choosing between a sword and shield, or a greatsword. Each weapon would change the core of the build, obviously a shield would give you tanking abilities while a greatsword would grant you DPS abilities. This choice would be made early on in the character's career in order to create some uniqueness among every Paladin. This would mean that not every Paladin is simply a cookie cutter of every other Paladin. The option grow even further if you add a third weapon, like a staff or Hammer. Idk, I just really really wanna play this game again, but the lack of depth in character customization (which imo is the very heart of any mmo), is preventing me from becoming excited at the prospect of returning

Whilst that would certainly make for a more interesting experience in terms of personal customization and preference, it'd be much more complex. For example, we already know that currently FFXIV:ARR is all about balancing. Everything is balanced in some way. (You can play any dps class as a team and it won't have too much effect overall, as an example) Most of the time what you stated is done in RPG's or primarily single player games. Because it's 100% PVE it doesn't necessarily matter if it's unbalanced. However in an MMO you have to take into account the stats and how it'll effect other players at the same time. Unfortunately I think that this method of being able to wield a Zweihander over a sword and shield if you prefer comes down to how the game mechanics have been built from the start. Perhaps it'd take too long for FFXIV to change to fit this idea as at the moment it's been all about balancing and unfortunately fallen into that cookie-cutter safe zone.

don't you know you can level all class in this game and some classes share gear set with other classe from same role?
If my BLM equip a book he keep all his gear and have a totally new skill set (the SMN one)
if my whm equip a book he become a sch but keep gear set
my pld can't equip GA but it's only becaus i havent leveled war yet.
ROG/NIN might share gear with some existing class (PUG/MNK?).

All you ask for is the current existing armory system without having to bother leveling other classes, and more multi class EG Gear

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Originally Posted by Starplayer

Hmm, my line of thinking was that with different weapons, come an entirely different set of skills with which to use for your current job. For example, a Paladin would have the option of choosing between a sword and shield, or a greatsword.

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If you're a PLD equip an axe and the gameplay will change a lot. You even get a new name, warrior.

You're asking for something the game already has. The problem is you only played as a bard. On WoW you have to go and respec and change your class a bit. On here you just equip another weapon on the go.

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Originally Posted by Starplayer

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That still sounds like the armoury system, but the job name doesn't change. You equip a SCH job stone (and its unique weapon), you become an arcanist with exclusive healing abilities, you equip a SMN stone (and its unique weapon), you become an arcanist with exclusive dpsing abilities...

As for making these changes permament, nope. FFXIV's strenght is being able to do everything and change your class in a heartbit with no repercussion. Anything that goes against that is a big no no for me.

Pretty much - unfortunately the term 'class' is actually misleading. The true name is 'Disciplines', as they're just a set of abilities connected with the use of a specific weapon or tool. Hence the reason why there is no branching within them, because they're not really classes at all - the class names are just titles given to those sets of abilities to make them sound more appealing. Really, the Armoury System could be kind of similar to FFXII where each character was free to equip any weapon type, but they were not given 'class' names.

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Originally Posted by Hik0

don't you know you can level all class in this game and some classes share gear set with other classe from same role?
If my BLM equip a book he keep all his gear and have a totally new skill set (the SMN one)
if my whm equip a book he become a sch but keep gear set
my pld can't equip GA but it's only becaus i havent leveled war yet.
ROG/NIN might share gear with some existing class (PUG/MNK?).

All you ask for is the current existing armory system without having to bother leveling other classes, and more multi class EG Gear

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That's not what they're saying, at all. You missed the point. The current armory system is great, and it offers customization. But there are limits to it for balancing purposes which makes sense. However, you are stuck with the same "type" of weapons. Such as Gladiators have to have a sword and shield, they can't have a two handed weapon.

There is hotswapping from class to class, but not actually IN the class.

Though now that I think about it; CNJ works in this way. You can have a two handed weapon or single+shield. However, in most cases the two handed weapon is always more effective with no actual cons to it. (I'm thinking, Dark souls, when you wield a two handed weapon you are significantly slower) There are no PERMANENT speed changes. Perhaps with the introduction of rogue/ninja they'll look further into speed bonuses and what will effect it. I really do think it'll put FFXIV:ARR into a different ballpark though; and whether that'd be good or not is beyond me..

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Originally Posted by Oblitae

Such as Gladiators have to have a sword and shield, they can't have a two handed weapon.

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So you have an issue with the name of classes. It doesn't matter how they're called. Your character can use both sword/shield and a two handed weapon. Each weapon gives your character different playstyles.

If we got rid of the warrior name and would call gladiator the same in both occasions nothing would change. You still equip another weapon and get new skills.

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Originally Posted by Oblitae

That's not what they're saying, at all. You missed the point. The current armory system is great, and it offers customization. But there are limits to it for balancing purposes which makes sense. However, you are stuck with the same "type" of weapons. Such as Gladiators have to have a sword and shield, they can't have a two handed weapon.

There is hotswapping from class to class, but not actually IN the class.

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For now. The only branching class uses books for both jobs but that may not be the case in the future.

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So you have an issue with the name of classes. It doesn't matter how they're called. Your character can use both sword/shield and a two handed weapon. Each weapon gives your character different playstyles.

If we got rid of the warrior name and would call gladiator the same in both occasions nothing would change. You still equip another weapon and get new skills.

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Oh nonono I don't, it's not that. But you can't equip a two handed weapon if you want or openly switch to a single handed weapon. CNJ is the only class that does this and there are no pros or cons that you have to weigh up and DECIDE what you want to sacrifice. You are stuck with the same type of weapon, with a different model and better stats as you progress.

To be honest I'm perfectly happy with the way it works now, but for the sake of argument (and the OP) it's nice to speculate.

You know, and thats why the class balance of WoW sucks.
You know, and thats why they change your class every big patch, and they might kill it for you, because its playstyle changed alot. (this happened to paladin.. sadly.)

no ty.

Maybe in the future they will allow GLD to equip 2-handed swords and call them DRK! ^_^

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Originally Posted by Oblitae

Oh nonono I don't, it's not that. But you can't equip a two handed weapon if you want or openly switch to a single handed weapon. CNJ is the only class that does this and there are no pros or cons that you have to weigh up and DECIDE what you want to sacrifice. You are stuck with the same type of weapon, with a different model and better stats as you progress.

To be honest I'm perfectly happy with the way it works now, but for the sake of argument (and the OP) it's nice to speculate.

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THM also has 1-handed weapons and shields. When you add up the stats from the two, though, it's just like a single weapon. There's not really any variation (and if anything it just means more to loot to gear up).

Doing that would ruin the simple and easy gameplay that apparently so many people need to play the game without sucking.. horribly..

I think what the OP is trying to say is that he wants a little more variety to his playstyle. Unlike WoW we don't have talent trees. Every job is highly specalized, you have one or two skill rotations and you have ONE thing to do and a big part the game is all about mastering that singular task. Job crystals are supposed to be like specs, like with arcanist can decide to roll DPS or heals depending on their job crystal. As for when other classes get multiple jobs, its anybody's guess

I agree it would be nice if there were more options in this game, but...its a new game really, there are already 9 completely distinct jobs. Like others have said...if you want more variety, you still have that, just so you have to level another class to 50 to get instead of just respeccing.

The way I see it, the different specs that each class has in WoW is very similar to the branching job system in this game... Summoner and Scholar feel very similar to two different specs in WoW. Its just they haven't implemented similar jobs for the other classes...and possibly never will. -_- (Which will just make the developers seem dumb and be a waste of the job system)

Not reading all of it, so might missed something.

Yes, changing weapons without changing class would be awesome.
While it is 100% logic to me, that a PALADIN can not wield a great axes, it doesn't fit into any form of Paladin I ever heard of.... why is Paladin(and Gladiator) - AT THE MOMENT - the ONLY one able to equip daggers and swords (and shield for tanking).
Weapons I know from other lore for paladin are bi handed swords, maces one handed and bi handed, normal swords, and the are the rarer Paladins that use Pole arm kind of weapons.

The Warrior of FFXIV, why is he reduced to being a Tank? The Warrior story? He is a brawler, a fighter, jumping in the fray not to protect his party members from harm but take the fight to the front lines. In every cut scene he is NOT depicted as TANK.
Why can a Warrior as Tank ONLY use great axes? Why not every weapon class there is? Warriors, after all, are known to be able to wield almost every melee weapon possible. As Warrior I want to be able to use sword and shield if I need to tank, or even better single handed axe and shield. For slicing up enemies a bi handed sword would be awesome. Or Daggers for close quarter stabbing.


Bards/Archers. In almost every lore, they know how to either wield rapiers or daggers in addition to their instruments and (if they existed) ranged weapons. FFXIVs Bard, so I love it, is more a Hunter with a Harp from the skills than a Bard with a Bow. Bow should still remain his main weapon, but daggers would be really sweet.

Monk/Pugilist: Let them fight without weapons, bare knuckles, if they want to. Maybe using "bandages" as weapon instead.

The Mage classes, I see books/tomes more as an Offhand thing than a main weapon. Why not give every mage class at least access to wands? Staves, staves for every mage would be be awesome too.


DoL Classes apart from fishermen. I honestly think, any mob getting hit by a pickaxe, sledgehammer, sickle, scythe of the appropriate level, will be in as much pain as getting hit by a sword, axe or knuckle .... maybe even more with some weapons. While I don't think they should be able to level up by fighting. They at least should be able to use certain skills also on mobs inflicting good damage, not to gain lots of exp (if any) but just that I don't ALWAYS need to sneak around and run away from stuff any DoW of the same level would grind to dust.

it would also be awesome to have two specs, or at least be able to save different hotbars to different sets. I want my PVP set be combined with PVP actionbars and my PVE set with PVE bars and my Town set with stuff i only want for towns.

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Saying "This isn't possible"
Are you game developers? How many games have you coded? Have you ever seen a line of code or what it looks like when working with developer tools? No? So why do you think it is not possible? Long time it wasn't possible in WoW, and than it was introduced with a (compared to everything that came before and after, quite minor patch)

Whiners "Don't wish for stuff I don't like"
Don't condemn stuff I like

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Originally Posted by Starplayer

snipped OP

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Lol, I played WoW for 7 years. Being able to DPS as a Warrior or Heal as a Paladin was only "new and interesting" the first time. For the rest of the time, you just had half to a third of your class abilities utterly pointless for your chosen specialty.

And just because my Death Knight could choose between a 2H Axe or a 2H Sword, didn't mean Blizzard ever put one of each at the highest tier. Until Transmogrification (WoWs version of Glamour) you were forced to use whatever happened to be of the highest ilvl at the time, regardless of what it was. Not only that, but the difference was purely visual. Grats, you're swinging a sword like its an Axe (And oh god the Polearm blunt end poke WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY?! The sharp bit was at the OTHER end!)

Also, not being able to tell the difference between a Retribution Paladin, Death Knight and Arms Warrior in the same gear wasn't exactly awesome.

Why would i want my Scholar to be a DPS? Thats what the Summoner is for!
What other weapon would a BRD use? a Gun? Thats what makes a Musketeer a Musketeer!

If you want more role depth for your Character, level a new class. Each job is has skills and a rotation for them that is specialized for its theme and role. I don't give a damn that every other Monk is using a similar rotation to me. They're using it because it's the way the Monk was intended to be played.

Even your vaunted WoW has cookie cutter builds and rotations that freaking everyone uses. And some "Special" Specs like Arcane Mages ... 1111111(Mana Gem)1111111111211111111111(Mana Gem)111111111112(Invocation)rinse/repeat. Such deep and insightful gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Lol, I played WoW for 7 years. Being able to DPS as a Warrior or Heal as a Paladin was only "new and interesting" the first time. For the rest of the time, you just had half to a third of your class abilities utterly pointless for your chosen specialty.

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Either you lie. Or you never took the 40 gold to pay the second skill set. which was COMPLETELY different to the other if you wanted it to be, even its very separate rune book (was that the term?). I had my Warrior full tank on one, and full dps on the other, You only had pointless abilities if you decided to invest points in them.
And yes this was implemented too in WotLK

FFXIV already has specializations, it's called equip a different weapon/soulstone to change your job. Specializations are only really needed in games where you can't change classes.

"But I want to be a DPS that uses swords!"

You're going to have to wait for them to add another job to Gladiator then.

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Originally Posted by Issac

XI did this right. Jobs could use a range of different weapons, weaponskill was independent of your own level, you chose what to master and how fast.

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Most jobs used the same weapon type for the whole of their career. Not only that, but switching to a different weapon (for the most part) didn't really change how you played your job.

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Originally Posted by Dels

Its just they haven't implemented similar jobs for the other classes...and possibly never will. -_-

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Not really sure why you're saying this. I'd say that it's way more likely for them to add second jobs to each class than to add new class/job pairings since it's less work to implement.

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Originally Posted by Issac

XI did this right. Jobs could use a range of different weapons, weaponskill was independent of your own level, you chose what to master and how fast.

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FF XIV 1.0 was also like this before the character level got removed (class level worked as weapon level, because your weapon is your class)

As example here:
http://cdn10.mixrmedia.com/wp-upload...piritdarts.jpg

You gain 14 experience points = Your character get 14 exp
You gain 108 conjury skill points = Your conjurer weapon get 108 exp

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

Most jobs used the same weapon type for the whole of their career. Not only that, but switching to a different weapon (for the most part) didn't really change how you played your job.

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I dunno, if I came into a leveling party as a pld and then busted out my great sword, I'd be out of the party faster than a monk's 2 hour. Standing around in jeuno and actually tanking things sounds like a completely different playstyle to me. You can argue that standing still in jeuno isn't a play style but most FFXI dragoons would beg to differ.

:^)

the depth was there in 1.0, but then got removed for whatever reason
ask SE to allow us playing end game content on our CLASSES on top of jobs while adding more CROSS-CLASS skills - problem solved
I am simply hanging on because there's no better alternative to FF14.. when there is, the first thing I'll do is unsubscribe.

hmm this is difficult but not impossible. What I imagine if this kind of system can be implemented is that classes can have multiple weapons w/c is similar to be open to lots of cross-class skills then after that jobs would have a specific kind of weapon. For example marauders would be able to wield axes and greatswords. Then when you get to choose a job u can either wield a axe and be a warrior or stick to the greatsword and be uhhm lets say berserker(though I think the job names would fit better if they swapped xD ).

As Im writing this I realized Arcanist has something like this with summoner and scholar. Yes both jobs still use books but they are job specific books. Just apply the same thing but with different kind of weapons which can apply different kind of play styles.

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Originally Posted by Kimikryo

Yes, changing weapons without changing class would be awesome.

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I still don't see how it would be any different from how it is now. The only difference would be the naming. You want for when a GLD equips two handed to still be called GLD but that's just a word on your character description.

Your character can use sword, shield, axe, knuckles, spear, book, staff, wand, summons, bow, daggers soon. The more you play with a weapon the more skills you get for said weapon. GLD, WAR, WHM are nothing else but names for the proficiencies of a particular weapon. They just needed some names. You want for your warrior to use a spear? Equip one and now you can use a spear.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

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fixing yourself on a single weapon for a class? oh look my whm50 doesnt need swiftcast.

My Bard had different sets. One for massive DPS, one for support and hexing only, one for Pulling.
My Paladin, while most of the time using sword and shield, to needed to know when I need to play like a plain meat shield and when to be agile like a couerl (tanking Byakko, try it in pure meatshield version and you die faster than you think).
Thief, when do I use daggers, when rapiers, when clubs? You needed to know all, capped weaponskill.
Same for dancer. Just dancer also needed to be main healer at times.
Any class with ranged weapon skill needed to be able to use it.
Samurai had different playing styles too, very specific as they might have been, but a Dynamis samurai needed to do different things as a colibri and even an imp exp party.
Even WHM had skills for mainly offensive use and even DPS sets.
Don't even get me started on Bluemage.

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Originally Posted by Edli

I still don't see how it would be any different from how it is now. The only difference would be the naming. You want for when a GLD equips two handed to still be called GLD but that's just a word on your character description.

Your character can use sword, shield, axe, knuckles, spear, book, staff, wand, summons, bow, daggers soon. The more you play with a weapon the more skills you get for said weapon. GLD, WAR, WHM are nothing else but names for the proficiencies of a particular weapon. They just needed some names. You want for your warrior to use a spear? Equip one and now you can use a spear.

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Do you even actively play this game?

In theory we have the armoury system, but for progression it is NON-EXISTENT because SE is doing their best to enforce 2 healer 2 tanks 4 dps setup for every single fight, and the "irregularities" in second coil setups are only a result of trying to bypass the planned dps gear gates.

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Originally Posted by Issac

XI did this right. Jobs could use a range of different weapons, weaponskill was independent of your own level, you chose what to master and how fast.

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Eh, that's only somewhat correct. Only Warrior could use a "range" (ie: many different weapons); however, most jobs could use a few. This sense of depth or variety was simply an illusion though, as every job specialized in only one or two specific weapons. You couldn't just use whatever you want on any job and achieve equal results.

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Originally Posted by Kimikryo

I think Darknight, Beastmaster might want to have a word with you. To a certain extend als Bard, Samurai, Thief and Ninja

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War could pretty much use every weapon in the game, all other jobs could only use a handful.
Also, most jobs could only skill up a certain weapon or two to the point that a DRK, for example, could skill up a Scythe and a Great Sword. So I don't understand what you're trying to refute here.

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Originally Posted by ShinkuTachi

Eh, that's only somewhat correct. Only Warrior could use a "range" (ie: many different weapons); however, most jobs could use a few. This sense of depth or variety was simply an illusion though, as every job specialized in only one or two specific weapons. You couldn't just use whatever you want on any job and achieve equal results.

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I think Darknight, Beastmaster might want to have a word with you. To a certain extend als Bard, Samurai, Thief and Ninja

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Originally Posted by Issac

XI did this right. Jobs could use a range of different weapons, weaponskill was independent of your own level, you chose what to master and how fast.

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I wanted to be a dagger wielding warrior but parties didn't want me, because dual wield axes were better, (higher skill-cap).

No, I didn't want to be a thief. Wanted to shank people up front like a boss.


Oh... I also wanted to practice being a pseudo PLD before I unlocked it but people looked down on WAR/WHM.

there actually is talk of classes doing multiple roles ie tank or dps role on a warrior or pally. the game is still a baby, not even one xpac out yet, try coming out with all of this customized playing on a project that failed where you re write practically everything while maintaining the older characters that still supported the game (1.0, legacy players) + small xpac quality patches every what 3 months + work on full blown xpac's + trying to make money for the company that was lost from a failed launch. Director has had a very very tight schedule to do all this and give it a fairly quick launch. Hell in two years time this game will have come a long way, Im sorry but you cant just compare wow to a brand new game where they have what over 10 years worth of experience and player feed back expansions to build the world on. If the op just started playing wow please look in to how many times that talent system has been overhauled and simplified. wow needs multiple talents because its one character one class system, here you swap out and level up everything or just what you wish to play. I do agree cross class skills could be a bit broader and a bit more powerful to make them very effective for a little twist and to set players apart but for what Yoshi has accomplished so far its pretty damn good and only going to get better. Basically if your bored try something else for a bit but don't totally brush this game off just yet its still a baby like I said with lots of potential. all good things come in time and a great game to enjoy for years and years just cant be rushed.

Well, I can kinda see how it would work but I dont see it happening due to SE's fondness to rigidness and the playerbase's affinity to "we're gonna min max anyway so who cares about flavor?"

You can have dual weapons be a system where changing to a different yet similar type of weapon alter a class's skills. Stuff like gladiators with great swords not being able to use shield skills with it on but having sword skills greatly enhanced. Marauders with a dual axe would turn their conal overpower into a spinning aoe, action hits turning into weaker double hits but bloodbath effect is greater. Separating archer bows back into long and short bows with one staying as is while the other being stronger at aoes but weaker in single target or being able to load different numbers or arrows with barrage. Monks having to choose either gauntlets or greaves where wearing greaves would greatly enhance and modify attacks with kick animations (only 2?) while weakening punch attacks (inb4 why not both).

It's just a thought though. It's definitely harder to balance if at all possible, even if it's restricted to class only and SE already took the easy way out by saying no to skill modifying armor effects so this is even more unlikely.