WHM or SCH: Which is more like Jedi Consular from SWTOR?

I don't know how many of you have played SWTOR, but one class I really liked a lot (although many disagree with me) was the Jedi Consular.

http://swtor.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Con...yable_class%29

So those of you who have played one, which do you think the class is more similar to: A WHM or a SCH?

Myself, I'm not too sure. White Magic was overused for selfishness in warfare in the past (so it doesn't work like the Light Side of the Force), and there's evidence the Padjal/Conjurers are actually not as peaceful or selfless as they seem. SCHs were the intelligent backbone of Nym, and acted as healers during peacetime, but my general assumption has been that personality-wise they were probably closer to being like Troopers.

I have to wonder why you are trying to bring Starwars into Final Fantasy, it's like trying to fit Star Trek into Lord of the Rings (to be fair, that would be pretty funny to see.)

Traditionally in the FF series, White Mages are actually closer to stock standard RPG style 'clerics' or 'priests' - their spells are usually holy-based, and revolve around being altruistic and selfless. Sadly the lore of WHM in FFXIV doesn't quite fit into the series traditions, and that was due to having to shoe-horn it into the CNJ class storyline, which was all about balance and a dogged pragmatism towards healing.

But yeah, the closest to a Consular would be WHM, if only for the Job's history in previous FF games.

SCH is probably closer to an Agent/Operative. Both have access to status effects through their base class. Because I've played a Inquisitor/Sorcerer to 55, I would say that WHM is probably close to Sage/Sorc than Smuggler/Agent. I never played a healy BH/Trooper so couldn't say. The thing to remember about SCH is that they didn't just charge into things. They were tacticians, and thus closer to Agent/Smuggler's stealthy nature.

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Originally Posted by Saikou

SCH is probably closer to an Agent/Operative. Both have access to status effects through their base class. Because I've played a Inquisitor/Sorcerer to 55, I would say that WHM is probably close to Sage/Sorc than Smuggler/Agent. I never played a healy BH/Trooper so couldn't say. The thing to remember about SCH is that they didn't just charge into things. They were tacticians, and thus closer to Agent/Smuggler's stealthy nature.

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I haven't played a Trooper either, but from what I can see the main difference between the two storylines is that Trooper embodies much more of the "proud", "dutiful" soldier, fighting for their country archetype, while Agent works behind the scenes and is thus more rogue-ish. So in that regard, a Trooper might be more like a Dragoon or Paladin.

Another thing is this: In SWTOR the Sith Inquisitor is the polar opposite of the Jedi Consular based on beliefs (or at least is meant to be played that way). The Light and Dark-side are two practically mutually exclusive "schools of magic" (if you wanna call them that); that is, lore-wise, a character can use one or the other, but not both. At best, if they do, the story tends to actively depict how big of a struggle it would be to try and have balance between the two, and more likely than not, the Jedi ultimately fails to remain pure and becomes a Dark Jedi. The only real exceptions we've seen to this are the Voss (who are found towards the end of the Main story in SWTOR).

Raya-O-Senna says in the WHM storyline that White and Black magic are "two sides of the same coin". This is true of the two Sides of the Force, but it's more like a case of a coin with one side being much heavier than the other. Only one side of that coin is going to be facing up once you flip it. If you somehow manage to get the coin to land perfectly on its edge, it takes an *incredible* feat to keep it balanced.

Even though this game implies that Black magic is corrupting, I didn't feel that BLMs in this game or in other FFs were that "evil" or "megalomaniac", TBH - certainly not on the level of a Dark Side Sith Inquisitor. In the same manner, I think one reason a lot of people hate the Jedi Consular storyline is because of how "Mary Sue"-ish your character is depicted, especially Light Side.

Functionally, a sorcerer and a sage are exactly the same. The spell names may be different, the spell effects may look different, but the effect and the strategy is identical. Both the Sage and Sorcerer have powerful direct damage at their disposal, telekinetic and lightning respectively. Their motivations may be different, but tactically speaking, they take similar roles when fighting in a team. White Mage takes the same type of roll. Affliction and Lightning Strike are analogous to Stone and Aero. Dark Heal analogous to cure, Dark Infusion analogous to cure 2. Hell, Polarity Shift = Presence of Mind.

What I understand of the healy BH and Trooper. They are heavily armored. Despite whatever code of honor a soldier of mandalorian clansman may have, they are the ones who aren't afraid to run into the fray. A scholar simply doesn't do that. All 3 might be willing to die for honor, but a SCH isn't going to run headlong into a group of enemies. To muddle things up and bring yet another game into the mix, the BH/Trooper healer seems closer to WoW's Holy Paladin. It heals, it wears heavy armor, it has a strong sense of honor by its lore. I believe that the closest analogue to the bh and trooper in FFXIV right now are Marauder and Gladiator. BH being closer to the unrefined might of the Marauder, the Trooper being closer to the finesse of the Gladiator. The interesting thing about both the BH and the Trooper is that they could go either way on the light/dark scale depending on how they react to specific hardships in their storylines. I've leveled each to around lvl 20. The BH may have a propensity to be more mercenary, but this is not necessarily so. Real Mandalorians live by a code, though many fail to hold to it. BH character is not Mandalorian initially and is given many opportunities to behave quite mercenary. The Trooper may be more likely to develop a soldier's sense of honor, but that is no certainty. You meet plenty of crooked men in the ranks and are given ample opportunity to be corrupted by them. Their tools may differ, sometimes slightly sometimes greatly, but their role in a team is, again, much the same.

I'm amused that in your analogies, in one case you take the philosophy more into consideration, and in another you take the mode of offensive combat more into consideration. I think you need to evaluate the entire package to make an accurate comparison. If the Agent and the Scholar aren't both motivated by patriotism, then those people have clearly chosen the wrong career path. Tactical Advantage functions surprisingly similarly to Aetherflow charges. A true healy Operative would stay away from the fighting, as would any sane Scholar. Operative has so many mid to long range options as opposed to Shiv or Hidden Strike. He doesn't need to fight dirty like a rogue (although he can) and when functioning primarily as a field medic it would be foolish to rely on his close attacks. Overload Shot = Ruin, Flash Bang = Ruin 2, Corrosive Dart = Bio/Miasma, Shield Probe = Adloquium, Recuperative Nanotech = Succor, Surgical Probe = Lustrate, Kolto Injection = Physick, Carbine Burst = Bane, Orbital Strike = Shadow Flare (ok, the last two are a stretch, but you get the idea...). When employed as a field medic, the Scholar and Operative must both act methodically by keeping distance between themselves and the enemy. From a lore perspective, both a Scholar and an Agent would prioritize minimizing risk to his team. When flying solo, the rules go out the window and how a Scholar or an Agent would react to a situation falls back to personalities, just as it did with our BH and Trooper.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph.../RedOniBlueOni

AFAIK, the Trooper fits the "Red Oni" personality description to a T. The Imperial Agent seems to be much more of a Blue Oni.

As for WoW, if you have any kind of skill in weapons, or any tie to a military force, it's over 90% certain that you're a glory-seeking, chauvinistic Red Oni type. Your motto is pretty much "Victory or death" (ESPECIALLY Horde side; in fact if you play Horde as of Cataclysm you're almost closer to being a Sith Warrior than a Dark Side Trooper).

(SPOILER)
The Jedi Consular ends up becoming sort of a "visionary leader" and has a major part in recruiting planets to join the Republic for a war against the Empire, even though he is meant to be pacifistic and ultimately allied with the Jedi rather than the Republic. He is a valued member of the order because of his wisdom and ability to keep a cool head in any situation (at least that's how I played him).

I have always assumed that in all likelhood SCHs were technically closer to being "Blue Onis", but still more similar to a Warrior or Paladin than a Rogue, both in terms of personality and approach to warfare. Basically like Celes from FF6 or Lightning from FF13.
You can blame WoW for coloring my perception of military types. =)

Its kinda funny how both the Republic and Empire's heavily armored classes are in Red Oni territory. You keep making this analogy between Scholars and Warriors and Paladins and I just don't see it. Two of these are in the thick of things, one is not. Without a unit of Marauders (Warriors) to direct, a Scholar was useless. The presence of the Scholar leveraged the capability of Red Oni type units. Having played an Operative, only one of Operative's specs is built around Rogue-like close combat. The other two are based around the ranged heals, of course, and fun things like Cull and Grenades. The mid-range blaster attacks were mentioned previously, let me reiterate that the vibroknife is an off-hand weapon. My primary weapon is a ranged weapon.

Perhaps I'm coming at this from the wrong angle. A Scholar does not employ stealth, I will grant you that. But would a Battlefield Scholar employ espionage to augment tactics on the battlefield? You better believe it. The thing I love about each of the SWTOR classes is that they are not cardboard cutouts of the classic dungeons and dragons archetypes. They all combine aspects of multiple archetypes. Agents aren't sneaky like rogues. Agents are ultimately soldiers. Soldiers specialized to act as snipers from cover or soldiers with a more versatile range of abilities with the benefit of stealth. The Agent is a Lawful allignment to The Smuggler's Chaotic alignment. All Jedi played straight are Lawful Good, with the more mavricky types being more of a neutral good (Ardun Kothe and Orgus Dinn come to mind). All Sith played straight tend to be either Lawful Evil or Chaotic Evil depending on whether they are true believers in the Sith Code or just see it as a tool and excuse for greater power. I can't say i remember any Sith character that was merciful or approached some kind of neutral alignment. I find the Trooper and BH to be surprisingly complex due to the whole semper fi and mandalorian code aspects, but both tend to be lawful, be it good or evil. Even if it's "I make the laws."

Due to the nature of FF, most known scholars are Lawful/Neutral Good. Tactics aren't conducive to whims and randomness.

http://swtor.wikia.com/wiki/Operative

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Originally Posted by Wikia

Combining the expertise of multiple disciplines, Operatives adapt to any environment and any circumstance to ensure the Empire’s agenda is achieved. Whether emerging from stealth to ambush and eliminate enemies in close-range combat or using advanced medical technologies to keep colleagues in the fight, the Operative is able to identify the needs of any situation and react accordingly.

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The Agent, exactly as the Scholar, is always more concerned with the bigger picture - with the consequences of the unit's actions - than with simply rushing in and shooting or stabbing as many enemies as possible. I can't equate the Agent with the Rogue archetype. That is far more what The Smuggler is, he's over there on the Republic side and is advertised as always shooting first.

I had a great time playing an Operative Agent to 55 in SWTOR, main story and PvP, before I came over here. The Agent is the only person who knows what's REALLY going on in the Galaxy! We're all puppets of the <MMmmmfm> MMMMmmF!

Consular = WHM. Simple. Because of Heals + Stone :)

But yeah, their *job* is more like an Operative's.

I liked being the Sentinel - big Boy Scout. Liked the snarky wit of the Consular. Hated the rah-rah over the top jingoism of the Trooper. Liked the Sith Warrior story line very much. But Vette is best sidekick ever. Woo-HOOOO! :)

It would have to be WHM due to the lack of fairies in Star Wars.

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Originally Posted by Wadoka

Hated the rah-rah over the top jingoism of the Trooper.

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This is partly what I was getting at, rather than the whole stealth & intelligence VS brawn and sheer might.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BloodKnight
In real life, soldiers who fit this trope are often subject to investigations by Internal Affairs, whereas in video games, it is very much tolerated, if not outright encouraged by the governments and the people. Nationalism is extremely important to the plotlines of most MMOs.

And since it is confirmed in the story that the ancient Scholars had the job of personally directing their Marauder units in battle, from what I can tell, even if they WERE Blue Onis in some ways such as being noticeably more intelligent and tactical than most military personnel, in all likelihood they still had at least some elements of the Trooper's jingoism and dominant alpha mentality - which would make them VERY different from the Jedi Consular in SWTOR. Of course, since Nym lies in ruins now, we'll never know for sure.

I think another class that is very similar to the Trooper is Dragoon, because Ishgard is a city-state steeped in military tradition after all, and even though DRGs don't wear heavy armor, they are definitely the "charge headlong into battle" type. Or Jump headlong into battle, as the case may be.

And one more thing: It's obvious that Conjurers in this game are Lawful Neutral at best, because many dialogues imply that they routinely and willfully let people die if such is the will of the elements. So IMO FFXIV's WHMs actually are more like the Voss Mystics than the Jedi Consular.

Tried to find you profiles of Adelheid Sturm and Gunther Schultz II, but neither Wikia, FFXIclopedia, nor TV Tropes had anything substantive. In XIV, all the scholars are dead and our mentor is a Marauder. In XI, though it was through the time travel allowed in the Wings of the Goddess expansion, we had some Scholar characters who were very much alive. Amusingly enough, the job is a dead profession in both games until we come along. We resurrect it from the past in each game.