Why not THF job?

While Yoshi-P stated that thieves having a guild doesn't quite make sense in the game world, especially with the use of the Rogue as the class, I don't understand why that should exclude the job from being made. Why not make Thieves to be something like the epitome of thieves, where they can steal beyond what normally is thought possible, like Kaitou Kid or Lupin III. Sure, these guys are still thieves, but they're a far cut above the normal riff-raff cut-purse and mugger. If you want to fit it in with lore, why not make it so that a retiring legendary Phantom Thief sends a challenge to find an heir to his legacy (and wealth), and the whole plot for the job will be you trying to overcome his challenges to become the best thief possible with cunning, ingenuity, and just plain sneakiness.

You pretty much answered yourself in the first sentence. Rogue effectively is a thief class by a different name. Are there still differences in specialization? Sure, but enough differences to merit a whole new class or job? Not really. Could you force enough differences to make it possible (like with your "epitome of thieves" or "Phantom Thief" examples)? Again, sure, it's possible, but what's really the point? Whether you call it thief, ninja, rogue, or flibbertygargen, the point is that they're putting all of the thief-ish mechanics that they want into this one class. There's still technically room for a similar class, but there's much more creative maneuverability in keeping different jobs distinct. There are people like yourself that would enjoy a different type of thief/ninja class, but having an entirely different class (aka the gun class) will appeal to more people and allow for far more variety overall.

By that logic you wouldn't need different melee damage dealers, tanks, or healers, since that's what you can generalize their play style in the same way: tanks take damage, keep aggro and stay alive, melee DPS (the current version at least) do positional damage, and healers keep people alive. The whole point of having different jobs isn't just for the play style, but because people actually liked that job from a previous FF game, and desire to play as such. The whole reason that they cut out THF this time is because of lore, and I'm simply pointing out that there isn't really a need to.

"A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet." Honestly we don't even know the abilities that Rogue has. I'm sure it'll have some kind of mug and steal along with a "flee" trait. I also believe they would add THF looking gear for people to glamour.

There's a 60 page thread with this discussion in the main forum.

Here, let me link it for you: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...OGUE-confirmed

While I am not holding my breath or even thinking it will really happen; making the class Rogue leaves the door open to create a second job to stem from it as Thief. With the lore explanations given regarding the guild, this also leaves the door open for a lone Thief to refuse to join the guild, or rediscover the "old ways." (Think similar to Monk, or Warrior)

E3 last year they announced Arcanist and Summoner, without mentioning Scholar at all, it is possible they would have a repeat performance here...

Again, not holding my breath.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

Rogue effectively is a thief class by a different name.

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You mean like lancer and dragoon? Or pugilist and monk? Or marauder and warrior? Thaumaturge/black mage?

Lancer becomes dragoon (iconic), marauder becomes warrior (iconic), pugilist becomes monk (iconic).... See where I'm going? Classes are XIV things, and jobs are FF things. I agree in the sense that I would have liked to see the thief job introduced and implemented, and yes... For me it's a nostalgic throwback to my XI days... Alas, I don't see that happening with rogues already having 'stealth specific' actions and abilities. Its nothing game brsaking. It's more of 'oh.... Ah well, ninjas are cool too.' Kind of feeling.

Not only did Naoki not explicitly say there is no Thief job, you people need to understand why it would be stupid to have Thief job right now. What did Naoki want to add? Stealth class. Rogue/Ninja added. Done. What's next? Gun class. After that? Healer/Tank. After that? Probably Red Mage. After some more well known or needed classes are added, we can back track to the weaker and less useful classes.

Remember, Thief was overall a weaker Ninja with the only utility being that Steal was pretty good in single player games. Even in FFXI they had to get creative to make Thief not get completely outclassed by Ninja (which they inadvertently made a tank). So if you can get a good reason why Thief job needs to happen now, or within the first expansion, it would do you some good to list reasons.

Here's I'll start you off with the most common one;
1. Because I want it
2.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

You pretty much answered yourself in the first sentence. Rogue effectively is a thief class by a different name. Are there still differences in specialization? Sure, but enough differences to merit a whole new class or job? Not really. Could you force enough differences to make it possible (like with your "epitome of thieves" or "Phantom Thief" examples)? Again, sure, it's possible, but what's really the point? Whether you call it thief, ninja, rogue, or flibbertygargen, the point is that they're putting all of the thief-ish mechanics that they want into this one class. There's still technically room for a similar class, but there's much more creative maneuverability in keeping different jobs distinct. There are people like yourself that would enjoy a different type of thief/ninja class, but having an entirely different class (aka the gun class) will appeal to more people and allow for far more variety overall.

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SCH and SMN can answer your question, yes there could be enough skills to play the same class in a different way, while ninja looks more like a melee/mage hybrid Thief can be more of a melee oriented, with classic skills like sneak attack, I remember in 1.0 a skill that could exchange hate from one player to another, there's a lot of stuff they could add to make it feel different.

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Originally Posted by elreed

SCH and SMN can answer your question, yes there could be enough skills to play the same class in a different way, while ninja looks more like a melee/mage hybrid Thief can be more of a melee oriented, with classic skills like sneak attack, I remember in 1.0 a skill that could exchange hate from one player to another, there's a lot of stuff they could add to make it feel different.

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That can't answer the question。

SCH - healer
SMN - DPS

Unless you're saying;

NIN - DPS
THF - tank

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Originally Posted by Exstal

That can't answer the question。

SCH - healer
SMN - DPS

Unless you're saying;

NIN - DPS
THF - tank

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You're saying they CAN'T make 2 jobs different style DPS off the same class? ok...hell, they could give thief crossbows to equip and no different skills and it'd be a different job.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

You're saying they CAN'T make 2 jobs different style DPS off the same class? ok...hell, they could give thief crossbows to equip and no different skills and it'd be a different job.

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Except you'd have to make all the animations for using crossbow on Thief, which is pointless. Why? If you're going to put all the effort into giving them new animations, why not just make them have a stand alone base class to work from? You're going to use melee skills (Rogue is melee) with a crossbow? I realize this is an example but in the future make it a little more reasonable (longswords, chakram, etc). I'm saying that without a huge variation in job skills, there's no way to differentiate two jobs from each other (5 isn't enough).

So look at it this way, when you remove all Paladin's skills they still play almost the same no? Even with Monk losing all their skills, it's pretty much the same idea right? So what happens you want to make 2 classes, who are at core the exact same, as the same role? Redundant jobs. That's what. Now if there was 7~10 (being conservative) then you could make an argument for Thief and Ninja both branching from Rogue. But at 1 job skill every 5 levels, gonna be L70~100 to get that in.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

You pretty much answered yourself in the first sentence. Rogue effectively is a thief class by a different name. Are there still differences in specialization? Sure, but enough differences to merit a whole new class or job? Not really. Could you force enough differences to make it possible (like with your "epitome of thieves" or "Phantom Thief" examples)? Again, sure, it's possible, but what's really the point? Whether you call it thief, ninja, rogue, or flibbertygargen, the point is that they're putting all of the thief-ish mechanics that they want into this one class. There's still technically room for a similar class, but there's much more creative maneuverability in keeping different jobs distinct....l.

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Lol fibbertygargen. I Just had a Peter Griffin/Family Guy moment, saying that word out loud and laughing at it. xD

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Originally Posted by Exstal

..I'm saying that without a huge variation in job skills, there's no way to differentiate two jobs from each other (5 isn't enough).

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5 isn't enough? Owell. Imma go heal Turn 5 with my smn.

Thought of it this way? You have rogue, uses 2 daggers as wpns. What thieves would use? 2 daggers also. How would you change class between thief and rogue if they were 2 different classes? Unless SE decides to use 1 handed daggers/smallswords. But hey, wait. Gladiator/PLD currently uses daggers and smallswords and swords. So no daggers either. See the problem? Also, it's said that Nin uses "Mundras" which are kinda magic no? Well, I would think that those would be the Job skills and they stated those are going to be the main way of dealing dmg, in one way or another. So if Thf would get purely melee actions/steals/boosts what ever it'd for me atleast a completely different job. As are SCH and SMN even when they have only 5 skills (Job skills ) different.

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Originally Posted by AniCelestine

5 isn't enough? Owell. Imma go heal Turn 5 with my smn.

Thought of it this way? You have rogue, uses 2 daggers as wpns. What thieves would use? 2 daggers also. How would you change class between thief and rogue if they were 2 different classes? Unless SE decides to use 1 handed daggers/smallswords. But hey, wait. Gladiator/PLD currently uses daggers and smallswords and swords. So no daggers either. See the problem? Also, it's said that Nin uses "Mundras" which are kinda magic no? Well, I would think that those would be the Job skills and they stated those are going to be the main way of dealing dmg, in one way or another. So if Thf would get purely melee actions/steals/boosts what ever it'd for me atleast a completely different job. As are SCH and SMN even when they have only 5 skills (Job skills ) different.

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I guess I forgot to explain why this doesn't work. So let's start with SMN vs SCH. Let's temporarily ignore that their roles are different and look at strictly DPS SCH vs SMN. How do they play?

Bio II => Misma => Bio => Shadow Flare => Ruin Spam

So what if SCH was in fact not a healer and another DPS called Necromancer? Then you'd have a job that plays basically the same as SMN with a different motif (being undead and what not).

So now let's come back to SCH vs SMN in reality. These jobs are different because they serve different functions. A healing SMN does not play like a SCH just because you have physick. That'd be akin to BLM playing like SCH because it has physick.

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SCH - healer
SMN - DPS

Unless you're saying;

NIN - DPS
THF - tank

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Unless Mudras are the entire rotation of Ninja, then I don't see a reason in having Rogue class at all. Your class is your foundation. You play a "specialized" class called a job. So at heart, minus those 5 skills, you are playing whatever class with a specific focus. I play a Arcanist with a specialisation in healing, or a Pugilist with a specialisation in punching things, but at the end of the day that's what I'm playing. An Arcanist. A Pugilist. So unless the devs pull some wildcard, it should follow this pattern.

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Originally Posted by jwang

By that logic you wouldn't need different melee damage dealers, tanks, or healers, since that's what you can generalize their play style in the same way: tanks take damage, keep aggro and stay alive, melee DPS (the current version at least) do positional damage, and healers keep people alive.

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Why didn't you add magic DPS also? Both BLM and SMN deals magic dmg?

But as I stated earlier it wouldn't work as a sole class. But as a Job it could, depending how exactly Nin will dps.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Unless Mudras are the entire rotation of Ninja

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Thats what I understood from the Live letters. And yeah, it would be completely useless to have rogue at all as a class, unless they have thief planned as a 2nd job to rogue. But until we completely know how rogue and ninja works, these discussions are nothing else but a battleground for raging people with no real reason as we don't have all needed facts to debate wether or not we should be demanding/wanting thief.

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Originally Posted by AniCelestine

Thats what I understood from the Live letters. And yeah, it would be completely useless to have rogue at all as a class, unless they have thief planned as a 2nd job to rogue. But until we completely know how rogue and ninja works, these discussions are nothing else but a battleground for raging people with no real reason as we don't have all needed facts to debate wether or not we should be demanding/wanting thief.

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Yes, that's what 68 pages of this thread is.