I am raising both tanking classes.. and trying to figure out where to spend my soldiery and where to get High allagan. This is a set to be used by both tank classes.. So I need to hit the 505 acc cap.. and keep parry up as high as I can after that. I will admit I see no real reason for crit so if someone can fill me in I would like that info I'd like to understand it. Determ and skill speed I can see some use for... Determ for hitting harder and hence more threat.. and Skill speed to make the GCD go a slight bit faster thus letting me gen some small quicker threat.. Thought I could be wrong..And if I am I'll admit it..
Now I know the base acc for 50 naked is 341, Here is what I have chosen so far for my BiS The empty non weapon slots are where I am having trouble Deciding what is best. http://xivdb.com/?wardrobe/12058/Tanking-Question- A little help would be welcome..
Tank Gearing help!
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06-21-2014, 08:02 PMChes_YggdrasilTank Gearing help!
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06-22-2014, 12:43 AMArgyle_Darkheart
For max parry and ilvl, WAR: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/MPR9 | PLD: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/MWK4
(Someone correct me if I'm wrong, please)
However, I don't, personally, recommend either of these options; it's far too much VIT and parry for the current content.
Itemization priorities may change with the addition of Brutal Coil in this regard, but we're just as likely to meet more challenging DPS checks (based on the content thus far).
Also, new meldable accessories are coming soon, which may change BiS. -
06-22-2014, 01:05 AMChes_Yggdrasil
Thank you I shall look into those however I am now curious what you would recommend as I do agree that's too much VIT for the current content as I'm trying to learn as much as I can about tank itemization
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06-22-2014, 01:17 AMArgyle_Darkheart
It mostly comes down to accessories. i70 pentameld (Gryphonskin) are currently one of the best options, all around, but the new meldable accessories in patch 2.3 should surpass them in every way. So, I wouldn't worry about it until the patch hits.
In the meantime, you could spec into STR or use some Slaying accessories, if you have them, in place of Fending accessories. -
06-22-2014, 01:25 AMChes_Yggdrasil
That sounds good to me as it'll most likely take me until 2.3 to get all the gear anyway thank you once again
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06-24-2014, 12:41 AMDonjoAll except for a single tank in Turn 8 or the Main Tank for Turn 9. My experiences in Turn 8 indicate that more HP = survival and the tank can die even if they pop every cooldown at once whenever the big damage is going out(the source is an add which will be dead before the cooldowns expire, so it isn't a rotation issue). I'm also hearing some scary numbers from Turn 9, like the boss's answer to Death Sentence dealing 11k damage if completely unmitigated. I haven't entered 9 yet, however, so I don't have the experience of "well, this'll kill the tank" that I have in Turn 8.Quote:
Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart
i70 accessories are debated as to whether they're superior to i110 Fending accessories right now. Added STR and DEX increase parry chance and the damage prevented, but it's a good hit to max health. i90 accessories, however, would most likely be definitively superior to i110 if Tanks can acquire accessories with both STR and DEX like the last tier.
HP Pool really only truly matters in the Second Coil right now. For nearly anything else, I can go in as a PLD with all pure STR accessories and survive just fine. However, when the hits are really just that big, Vit will be king. -
06-24-2014, 05:31 AMkashi_takashi
Yeah in T9 it hurts really badly unmitigated the damage can reach up to 10k-11k of damage and I haven't done it as a War only PLD
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06-24-2014, 10:58 AMArgyle_Darkheart
Turn 9's damage is easily managed once you learn the fight. The DPS requirements for pushing phases optimally, on the other hand, is fairly strict. As long as you have at least 7000 HP outside of party before food, you're fine. Having a couple hundred more is a good idea, but more than 7400 is overkill, from my experience. After that, you should look to optimize your damage output.
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06-24-2014, 01:05 PMOoshima
8.1k HP as a WAR in T9 is enough - one of my FC WAR swear by i70 pentamelds until he get more VIT from i110 armor pieces then he dropped the i70 accessories for i100/110 STR accessories. He is 30STR speced too.
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06-25-2014, 05:35 PMChes_Yggdrasil
It's certainly food for thought. Any more info could be useful. As for the sets they look sorta solid if you spec or respec into str..
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06-25-2014, 09:53 PMDonjoYes, everything is easier once you learn the fight. However, the OP is obviously someone who hasn't. Only when a fight is mastered should its participants experiment with stats, equipment, and specialties. In all other cases, the (main) Tanks should stack Vit and Parry. There is no question about this. It's simply what's safest. Save the experiments for after the down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart
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06-25-2014, 10:04 PMGremboOh yeah that 0.1% parry increase you get from DEX is awesome! So glad you reminded me of this. gonna go all out DEX right naow!Quote:
Originally Posted by Donjo
Edit: Being serious though, here's what my intended set (max parry) will look like ...maybe :p.
Head: Noct
Chest: Noct
Gloves: High Allagan
Waist: Noct
Legs: Noct
Feet: High Allagan
Neck: Noct
Ears: High Allagan
Bracelet: High Allagan
Ring: Noct + Weathered Noct (not sure about this)
Haven't looked into it too much yet, i've just been grabbing what I can. Hopefully if I go Parry/Acc on Novus i'll have plenty of accuracy with this set, for now i'm using High Allagan legs to bump it up. -
06-26-2014, 04:03 AMArgyle_DarkheartYou'll learn to effectively mitigate the damage pretty quickly (well before your first clear); you don't at all need to have "mastered" the fight. I wouldn't recommend what I did if you needed mastery of the current content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Donjo
The point of more STR is to make your first clear easier. That is, the main hurdles of T9 are NOT tank mitigation management or healing. Rather, the difficulty of T9 comes from managing mechanics and clearing DPS checks. Neither of these are much impacted by your VIT and/or Parry. -
06-26-2014, 12:19 PMDonjoWhen it comes to ways to increase the overall damage inflicted by the group, giving the Main Tank a little extra Strength is by and far the least effective option. Get the DPS to 110 weapons, for starters. Second, if additional DPS really is necessary, you can get the Off Tank into full a Strength spec(bonus stats and accessories), which will make a difference. Meanwhile, a main tank who's stacked on mitigation can spend enough time not being healed that the healers can sling a few damaging spells of their own out. Sure, they'll miss a few times, but hitting with just one spell deals more damage than over a minute of adding up the 10 or so more damage per hit you can get by switching Vit for Str. That alone will will put an i100 tank well below your proposed breakpoint of 7400 health. If the healers alone can hit with 11-15 spells over the course of the fight without getting anyone killed, they've surpassed anything a less survivable tank could have traded for over the entire fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart
In my opinion, if I'm ever in a situation where my damage as the tank is what will make or break a fight, then there is some kind of issue with the group. The job of the tank is to keep the attention of foes and, more importantly, not die. If the tank dies, so does the party. Doing as much damage as possible is not in that job description, and attempting to do so only makes your actual job harder unless you appreciably overgear the content. Even if making the job harder increases the difficulty from "Very Easy" to just "Easy", that's still more stress you're putting on the healers and by extension the rest of the party. -
06-26-2014, 05:02 PMAlgin
DOn't want to make another gearing thread. In one of the links given in this thread, until I get High Allagan gear, it's recommended to get full weathered noct. But, as I checked some of the items, compared to the Hero gear, I'll loose a lot of parry, gaining speedskill and accuracy.
I'm currently in Hero/weathered noct mix, with body, belt, earings and necklase being weathered noct with ATMA shield/sword (working on books) and am on like 494 ACC and 568 parry. Now, would it be okay, if I'd swap bracers to get +3 vit, accuracy and speedskill, while giving up +12 parry? I walways thought, that you should stack mitigation as high as you can. Same goes with other pieces of weathered noct. They trade more parry for accuracy.
So should I mix the hero/weathered noct until I can find time to do coil (working shifts at work is hard to get static or participate in FC raids) and get high allagan? -
06-26-2014, 08:57 PMArgyle_DarkheartI disagree. The main tank is a constant source of outgoing damage with little to no opportunity cost; it's a reliable source of damage to optimize. DPS and the off tank take priority, but the main tank is just behind them. Besides, even if it weren't an effective option, it's still an option.Quote:
Originally Posted by Donjo
First of all, the only "mitigation" you can stack is Parry, and that's not reliable. VIT can provide enough buffer HP between incoming damage to mitigate the opportunity cost of switching to Cleric Stance, but you need considerable amounts of HP above the minimum HP for that (I would say at least 25% above). But at that point, just how much STR are you sacrificing?Quote:
Meanwhile, a main tank who's stacked on mitigation can spend enough time not being healed that the healers can sling a few damaging spells of their own out.
I don't understand why some people continually insist that it's not the tank's job to deal damage. If that were the case, then it wouldn't deal damage. Instead, damage occurs naturally while tanking (as opposed to healing), and in considerable amounts. The main tank will generally deal 40-60% as much damage as an equally geared and skilled DPS; that's not negligible.Quote:
The job of the tank is to keep the attention of foes and, more importantly, not die. If the tank dies, so does the party. Doing as much damage as possible is not in that job description, and attempting to do so only makes your actual job harder unless you appreciably overgear the content. Even if making the job harder increases the difficulty from "Very Easy" to just "Easy", that's still more stress you're putting on the healers and by extension the rest of the party.
As for putting stress on the healers, it would be far more stressful if they had to routinely contribute DPS in addition to keeping the raid alive. In my opinion, for end-game content, that's the last resort.
I think most tanks grossly overestimate the importance of VIT past a certain point. Maybe their healers really suck. -
06-26-2014, 09:23 PMArgyle_DarkheartParry's usefulness is questionable. Personally, I think it's a garbage stat for being so unreliable, but that doesn't mean it's useless. As for the specifics of your question, the 3 VIT alone is way better than 12 Parry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Algin
Unfortunately, unless you're clearing SCOB, your equipment options are severely limited (Heavy Wolfram maybe) until patch 2.3 hits.
Bottom line, I would not use any mythology gear over soldiery gear, unless I absolutely needed it to meet accuracy requirements. -
06-26-2014, 11:20 PMDonjoIn the systems currently running this game, the tanks have to deal damage because 1 damage = 1 threat and a tank who isn't currently tanking needs to actually be able to kill things. In a party, a Tank needs multipliers on their threat in order to keep the attention of enemies. I'm not saying that the tank shouldn't deal damage. Their damage counts somewhere. I'm saying that out of all the things a tank should be worrying about, "tanking" is priority number one and "maximizing damage" is the absolute lowest priority. The job is called Tank, not DPS. The argument of "If that were the case, then it wouldn't deal damage." is empty. It supports a DPS healer too. They have damaging spells, so why aren't they DPSing? Because their job is Healer. In your post, you decried this very thing. The only reason Tanks deal damage is because damage = threat. If they were supposed to deal a lot of damage, they'd deal such amounts without having to rely on multipliers on their base damage to keep threat. Their "tanking" stances wouldn't directly reduce their damage. If the Tank's job was to deal damage, it wouldn't be called a Tank. It would be called a DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart
In my experiences, a tank smacking something in their tank stance will deal only about 25-33% as much damage as an equal DPS. A tank who is not in their tank stance gets closer to 40-50%, and a tank fully specced into strength will creep closer to 60 or possibly even 70%. A tank is built to be able to do good damage if and only if they are not tanking in a party environment.
Let's split max health into chunks of, say, 500. If that tough boss' auto attack did about 500 damage per swipe, then every 500 health means you can survive one more. Every 500 health is one mistake the healers can make without getting you killed. Every 500 health is one heal the healers can spend on a hurt DPS instead of you. Every 500 health is one spike of unexpected damage(ie. critical hit, accidentally didn't dodge that AOE, etc.) that you might survive. That little green bar is the only kind of mitigation a tank can fully rely on. There is no such thing as having too much of it. If you stay at the absolute minimum to survive and replace extra Vit with Strength, then you will likely be killed the second something does not go according to plan. I've lost count of the times I've fallen into double digit health values. If I had even 7 less Vitality, I would have died. But I didn't, and we went on to win.Quote:
I think most tanks grossly overestimate the importance of VIT past a certain point. Maybe their healers really suck.
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06-27-2014, 05:57 AMArgyle_DarkheartNo they don't; look at Flash. SE could of designed a tank that doesn't deal damage, but they didn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Donjo
I agree, but not to that degree. I think you (and many others) undervalue the tank's ability to contribute damage and overvalue how much the tank needs to gear for survival. Let me be clear, I do not suggest prioritizing STR over VIT until you have enough HP to survive reliably.Quote:
I'm saying that out of all the things a tank should be worrying about, "tanking" is priority number one and "maximizing damage" is the absolute lowest priority.
Why? This doesn't mean anything. My point is that it's designed that way. It didn't "have" to be.Quote:
The argument of "If that were the case, then it wouldn't deal damage." is empty.
Because the opportunity cost for contributing damage on a healer is far greather than that of a tank's. My point was that damage occurs naturally as part of your job as a tank (it didn't "have" to; it's designed this way), but not as a healer. It's not like you deal damage when casting a healing spell.Quote:
It supports a DPS healer too. They have damaging spells, so why aren't they DPSing? Because their job is Healer. In your post, you decried this very thing.
The reason tanks deal damage is because they're designed that way. I never meant to suggest that this was their top priority. Everything else you mention is for balancing purposes; of course they're not designed to deal as much damage as an equally geared and skilled DPS. That would be ludicrous. Also, tying damage to threat naturally leads to the conclusion that the tank should optimize their damage in order to increaseQuote:
The only reason Tanks deal damage is because damage = threat. If they were supposed to deal a lot of damage, they'd deal such amounts without having to rely on multipliers on their base damage to keep threat. Their "tanking" stances wouldn't directly reduce their damage. If the Tank's job was to deal damage, it wouldn't be called a Tank. It would be called a DPS.
their effectiveness. Again, I'm not suggesting this is priority one, but it's definitely there.
HP is not mitigation; stop saying that. And there is such a thing as too much HP. Every time you didn't "go into double digits" is an example of when you had too much HP. I never said HP buffer isn't useful (quite the opposite), but there is definitely a point of diminishing return (practically, not mathematically). Now, where you draw the line depends on a case by case basis, and there is a time and place for having a larger HP buffer. But that often comes at the cost of a higher potential DPS. Whether that's more or less valuable at any given time needs to be evaluated at that time, but more DPS always makes a difference. Still, I firmly believe that nothing in the current end-game content requires, or appreciably benefits, from such enormous amounts of HP.Quote:
That little green bar is the only kind of mitigation a tank can fully rely on. There is no such thing as having too much of it. If you stay at the absolute minimum to survive and replace extra Vit with Strength, then you will likely be killed the second something does not go according to plan. I've lost count of the times I've fallen into double digit health values. If I had even 7 less Vitality, I would have died. But I didn't, and we went on to win.
Let me be absolutely clear, VIT > STR up to a certain point. Once you can survive reliably, any extra HP you can achieve won't make that much of a difference in your tanking capability. I'll concede that there may be situations in the current end-game content where enough of an HP buffer may allow healers to DPS, but asking your healers to DPS can, and often will, be very risky. But, really, healer DPS comes down more to player skill and incoming damage frequency, rather than "500 more HP" on the tank. -
06-27-2014, 10:25 PMDonjoFlash's existence does not address the statement that "Tanks need to do damage so they can actually kill things when they are not tanking." Therefore, this point has not been fully argued.Quote:
Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart
Okay, okay. I was getting the impression from your posts that any tank who maximized mitigation instead of strength was doing it wrong and they didn't deserve to be a tank. I still don't support the amount of priority you give tank damage, but I apologize if I've been heavy handed in my replies.Quote:
I agree, but not to that degree. I think you (and many others) undervalue the tank's ability to contribute damage and overvalue how much the tank needs to gear for survival. Let me be clear, I do not suggest prioritizing STR over VIT until you have enough HP to survive reliably.
The reason tanks deal damage is because they're designed that way. I never meant to suggest that this was their top priority. Everything else you mention is for balancing purposes; of course they're not designed to deal as much damage as an equally geared and skilled DPS. That would be ludicrous. Also, tying damage to threat naturally leads to the conclusion that the tank should optimize their damage in order to increase
their effectiveness. Again, I'm not suggesting this is priority one, but it's definitely there.
When we're talking about how Tanks are designed, can't it be argued that Tanks are designed to be stacking Vitality since it's on all Tank specific pieces whereas Strength is only on half? Then again, all accessories are equippable by all classes, so maybe we're meant instead to have freedom both inside and between jobs.Quote:
Why? This doesn't mean anything. My point is that it's designed that way. It didn't "have" to be.
I think this whole "What is mitigation?" issue is just a difference in how we define the word.Quote:
HP is not mitigation; stop saying that. And there is such a thing as too much HP. Every time you didn't "go into double digits" is an example of when you had too much HP. I never said HP buffer isn't useful (quite the opposite), but there is definitely a point of diminishing return (practically, not mathematically). Now, where you draw the line depends on a case by case basis, and there is a time and place for having a larger HP buffer. But that often comes at the cost of a higher potential DPS. Whether that's more or less valuable at any given time needs to be evaluated at that time, but more DPS always makes a difference. Still, I firmly believe that nothing in the current end-game content requires, or appreciably benefits, from such enormous amounts of HP.
The dictionary defines mitigation as "the action of reducing the severity, seriousness, or painfulness of something."
With this in mind, I would say that the act of "Increasing my HP Pool" is mitigation. It reduces the severity and seriousness of Attack X by allowing it to remove a lower percentage of my max health. Anything that makes Attack X less severe is mitigation, and "severity" is measured both in the actual amount of damage the attack did and how badly you're off afterwards. Thus, this includes Max(and current) Health, Cooldowns, Block/Parry, and Healer Shields. It all helps you not be killed by Attack X.
So, my Paladin currently has about 7800 HP with food active. Referencing your proposed cutoff point of 7400, I could, say, respec my bonus points completely from Vitality to Strength and successfully hover around that 7400 mark. This sacrifices 30 Vitality for 30 Strength. Given that I'm currently tanking something, that 30 Strength is theoretically reduced by 20% to an effective 24 Strength. This is equivalent to gaining about 3 Weapon Damage. This would increase my DPS by 5 points or so, perhaps up to 10, I think. If we assume that I'm regularly doling out 125 DPS or so while actively tanking, I increased my overall DPS by 4-8% at the cost of now having the absolute minimum health necessary to survive the Second Coil.Quote:
Let me be absolutely clear, VIT > STR up to a certain point. Once you can survive reliably, any extra HP you can achieve won't make that much of a difference in your tanking capability. I'll concede that there may be situations in the current end-game content where enough of an HP buffer may allow healers to DPS, but asking your healers to DPS can, and often will, be very risky. But, really, healer DPS comes down more to player skill and incoming damage frequency, rather than "500 more HP" on the tank.
In my opinion, the cost is simply too high for a benefit that will not save a fight 99% of the time. I suppose this is a comfort thing, but it's scary and stressful to often fall into double digit health, both for the Tank and the Healers... and stressed people make mistakes. Taking stats that help to ensure survival to their minimums requires the entire rest of the party to play flawlessly, and that's simply not feasible. We're human. -
06-28-2014, 01:30 AMValkoria
Anyone who was serious about ScoB when it was serious progression would know that there were some hard dps checks in nearly every fight. Want to know why so many groups couldn't progress in turn 9? Because most groups couldn't push 47% before the third heavens fall. Want to know why t8 felt so hard unless you solo tanked? Remember those times when you'd get a bulb in the center after a hornet? etc.
You'd be surprised how much damage a tank can deal if you are good and have a good attitude about your role, you're not just there to sit and absorb damage. Parry scales extremely poorly and doesn't really improve your EHP all that much.
PS: The word some people are looking for is Effective Health Pool, Mitigation effects it, but having more HP is NOT Mitigation. Mitigation is something that reduces damage taken (rampart/vengeance or armor/parry), Self Regeneration and HP are things that effect your EHP. -
06-28-2014, 04:50 AMDonjoThe highest I've heard of a Tank dealing in their tanking stance is 150 DPS, less than half of what any DPS class should be doling out anywhere in the Second Coil. The returns from maximizing Strength while still remaining survivable are very low and likely will not save the day in any instance where a significant DPS loss is garnered from the DPS itself. It's absolutely true that "every point counts", but it's probably best to get DPS damage up before Tank damage. Plus, if you really want to do more damage while stacking Vit, invest in weapons early and often and bring some Strength Potions along.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkoria
However, an Off Tank specced entirely into Strength(30 bonus, all STR accessories) can push 300 outside of a tanking stance and that is not insignificant at all, especially if that Off Tank is a Paladin benefiting from Storm's Eye(Or Path, whichever one reduces slashing resistance). This would actually work on Turn 8 because when the Off Tank should be tanking something, it's never for very long. I hear that Turn 9 might be the same way. However, we've been talking about the benefits of a Main Tank dealing more damage and whether or not it's worth trying to push past that damage debuff to get fight altering results.
Regarding Parry, I really don't think it's a stat that's meant to increase overall EHP in any significant way. It's a chance to mitigate individual attacks at the whim of RNGesus. It's kind of an "oh, nice!" whenever it happens, especially if you parry a powerful attack. I don't look at the "Oh, this 44 Parry only reduced the damage I took over that fight by 0.5%", I look at "Whew, I parried that Rotoswipe during the big moment and now the healers can get me up faster." It merely eases the burden at times, and I hope I'm not the only one who lets out a happy sigh when a big hit gets parried or blocked.
Regarding your comment on health: Did you just completely ignore how I quoted verbatim a dictionary definition of the word "mitigation" and clearly explained how the mere existence of a health pool could satisfy it? Health is the first and last line of defense for mitigation. "Effective" health is merely the approximate amount of damage that must be dealt to you at any given time in order to overcome it. If an attack does not hit harder than your current Effective Health, it has been successfully mitigated. As I stated before, to mitigate something is to reduce the severity of it, and the "severity" of an attack is measured in two separate ways:
1. The amount of damage it does(ie. a 500 damage attack is less severe than a 4000 damage attack). This is straightforward, and reducing this number is the common sole definition of mitigation in the eyes of players.
2. How badly you're off following the attack, or the percentage of health you now have remaining(ie. an attack that deals 15% of your current health is less severe than one that deals 75% of your health). A 500 Damage attack is less severe if you have 7000 health than if you have 1000. Therefore, the mere possession of a larger health pool reduces the severity of all attacks and thus mitigates them.
Cooldowns, Blocks, Parries, and Shields all reduce severity by affecting the first point. You can call this "Active" Mitigation, as it usually requires player input in the midst of battle to take advantage of it. Raw health reduces severity by affecting the second point. You can call this "Passive" Mitigation, as it provides mitigation simply by existing. When put together, they make a tank a tank.