Learning Experiences

Hello, everyone! This is a bit of a look in to practice runs, mentalities (again), and future content.

For the past three days, I've been grinding until my eyes turned red from the hours of tedium, and today was the day I was able to take on Garuda-Normal. My first run, of course, ended in failure as my entire group was filled with new-comers, me included. We eventually made tactics together, and they worked just fine, but our equipment broke before we could finish it. It was a decent run.

My next run was with a guy who claimed to have ilvl97 gear...whatever that means. My gear wasn't all that great considering I was using level 40 gear to fight Garuda, but hey, at least it was aetherial. After one attempt where this guy ran out of mana, I was suddenly called out on being unable to tank, or being too stupid to do it since we wiped before the second phase had begun. Yeah...I was kinda unsure of my ability to tank afterwards.

My third run was the last one. We won, even with everyone being newcomers again, and with all the crap gear I had. We worked together, traded knowledge with what we knew about the run, trusted our healer, trusted me and we cleared Garuda normal with all of our crap gear intact, and everybody alive. I didn't change anything I did. I did what I learned from the first run, and now I find myself confused and scared to proceed with the rest of the story content.

I don't wipe often, and when I do, it's because of a lag spike. Is everybody with all this "ilvl" stuff going to be just as rude or untrusting of me because I've never done content before? Is everybody going to be that condescending? If so, I request the assistance of those more experienced than I.

I'm approaching the end of the game, I'd think, so...what do I do? What do I need? Is there some basis I'm supposed to follow? Any help at all would be appreciated, so I don't end up looking like a fool when people need me most. And then there's the fact I don't even know if I can proceed if people are just going to call me out on being "too stupid to tank" when I play this game for one reason. I just wanna have fun with what I do, not be pushed around by somebody with too many hats for their own good. I feel like running the final dungeon is going to break my enjoyment for this game if everybody acts like that one guy...and to that end, that's why I want you guys to help me, and tell me what I need and need to know!

I'm also on Famfrit. I've had a few situations where rude players tried to blame their own shortcomings on me. I'm not the best player out there, but I know what I can heal through, and what I can't. It has been my experience that a healer needs a good tank, and a tank needs a good healer. Look me up in game, I will do what I can to help you learn. Too many people play the game so selfishly that they just want to get through their runs for their roulette bonus as quickly as possible instead of trying to help newer players learn and enjoy the content.

Yeah. even though I haven't played since the beta, I think I quickly learned that lesson when I got back in to the game. Back in the beta, everybody was rushing to do everything as quickly as they could...same with early access, and I was the same, but now I see how much teamwork is needed later on. Without synergy between the healer and the tank, something is bound to go wrong. In my opinion, their relationship is always the foundation a team is built on...or at least, a light party. I haven't done any 8-mans yet, so I can't speak for that grouping.

Just a question, were you dodging slipstream? It's a cast that does a lot of damage in a straight line at you, but doesn't have a ground indicator like most things you've gotten used to up to this point. This means you need to be watching her cast bar. This isn't really a case of needing better gear but needing the fight explained. If you were doing that and using your cooldowns, then the person was just trying to pass blame. If you weren't doing the above they were still rude but that is what was going on to set it off. Hope that makes sense.

I didn't dodge it during my first run since I didn't even know what it was, but I quickly learned. I got hit by it once during my second run during a lag spike, but I survived it just fine. I admit, I needed extra healing during that time, but it was just once. It missed every other time until the healer just decided to stop healing me and focus on the DPS.

Yeah they were just trying to pass blame then imo.

I am truly sorry that you had a bad experience, sadly my best advice is to find a way to brush it off. I have posted about the need for the decent group mates to stand up against bullies and I still completely support my view. If we all work together to squash the negativity and rudeness, our game will improve vastly! But in the meantime, do not start to doubt yourself and your abilities due to rude people. This forum has some wonderful tanking and/or all jobs threads....giving advice or guides to help you get more confidence in the day to day skill usage, fight positions and gear suggestions.As someone that recently leveled both tank jobs to 50, I feel for your pain completely...there were days that I just couldn't find the desire to click that duty roulette button to roll the dice on a nice group, or a bunch of meanies. (this is even after leveling all other jobs already). Stick with it, ignore the haters and lighten the mood of your groups, you may have dps or healers that are as bruised and broken as you feel, but above all do not take it personally when some person decides to be a jerk.

Kudos to Raeanya for offering her aid in this matter...take her up on it, friendly and supportive people certainly make dungeons much more fun!

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Originally Posted by Soldowner

My next run was with a guy who claimed to have ilvl97 gear...whatever that means. My gear wasn't all that great considering I was using level 40 gear to fight Garuda, but hey, at least it was aetherial. After one attempt where this guy ran out of mana, I was suddenly called out on being unable to tank, or being too stupid to do it since we wiped before the second phase had begun.

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He was bragging about how over-geared he was, but ironically the people who feel the need to do that are effectively saying that they're so bad at their job they don't know how to run a dungeon unless everyone is as over-leveled and over-geared as they are. You were "bad" only in that you weren't over-geared enough to make up for how badly he was playing. If he said you weren't tanking well enough, that usually means he was drawing aggro he shouldn't have, and you weren't able to keep it off of him. It wouldn't have been an issue if he'd been properly managing his aggro in the first place, and letting you do all the pulling.

(Of course, I wasn't there, so can't be sure. It's entirely possible that you were also doing something wrong yourself, but the fact that you could complete it with a group of other newcomers more easily than with this over-leveled guy points to the scenario I just described as being much more likely.)

By the way, ilvl means item level. Past 50, progress is measured in terms of the average item level of your gear. That said, it doesn't help when doing low level content where gear is synced down.

I won't say that I didn't make mistakes, since it's common for me to make mistakes if I haven't done a run. I'm not that good, and I'm not that cocky. What this guy said was "I'm taking too much damage, so I can't be helped." and that was it. I was promptly removed from the group in favor of this guy...boy did I wish I could've still had his name so I could've bragged about how wrong he'd been, but that wouldn't get me anywhere.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

By the way, ilvl means item level. Past 50, progress is measured in terms of the average item level of your gear. That said, it doesn't help when doing low level content where gear is synced down.

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Yes and no, it sure seems like someone in endgame gear when level synced does have a small advantage over someone in leveling gear. The endgame gear has a wider selection of stats on it letting the character have a more balanced stat allocation that can significantly help. The gear is higher quality and that does show even if it's not a gigantic leap stat wise. When I heal a lowbie dungeon and have an ilvl 90+ tank I barely have to toss a heal ever, where with a at level tank I do have to pay attention to their health a significant time more.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

He was bragging about how over-geared he was, but ironically the people who feel the need to do that are effectively saying that they're so bad at their job they don't know how to run a dungeon unless everyone is as over-leveled and over-geared as they are.

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^This
Yesterday, an impatient blm duty roulette into Navel (HM), demanding an immediate pull before buffs or mt/ot choice. He said "I am ilevel103, I will carry you all!" He proceeds to strike before the tank even tried for aggro. nd then he gets knocked off on the 2nd line attack! LMAO! Gear means little without skill :)
It is hard to maintain tank aggro against a lot of scaled back ppl for roulette, especially if they decide to rush the process and attack first, or not on the target set. Aggro is not just the tanks job, as any good dps and healer know and work to limit the incidents. I never want to see the mobs with red buttons next to my name, unless I am the tank.

I'm completely useless(technical/mechanical advice) to you since it's my first time as a WHM and I've attempted HER several times this week*tear*. There have been instances where I have made mistakes that make me question my competence as a healer*double-tear*. I'm mainly disheartened by the high-level folks that have been rude to me, and disband grp(it makes me a sad panda and it doesn't help as much as they think it does). It's like an episode of scooby-doo where you get to the end to see who the bad guy is, only to find out: there is no one to unmask(what the french-toast!)now the whole episode was a worthless waste of narrative now I have to watch it AGAIN with the hope of a better ending. You're right about the learning experience since this is the point in the game where folks are essentially forced to snap out of their idea of mechanics/role and gel as a team with any group of people their thrown into the "pot" with. Anyway, you're not alone and congrats on defeating her.

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Originally Posted by Kerberon

Yes and no, it sure seems like someone in endgame gear when level synced does have a small advantage over someone in leveling gear. The endgame gear has a wider selection of stats on it letting the character have a more balanced stat allocation that can significantly help. The gear is higher quality and that does show even if it's not a gigantic leap stat wise. When I heal a lowbie dungeon and have an ilvl 90+ tank I barely have to toss a heal ever, where with a at level tank I do have to pay attention to their health a significant time more.

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Yes, a synced player will be well geared for low level stuff, but there's a small difference between synced gear and HQ leveling gear. Most importantly, when synced it doesn't matter if he's ilvl 50 or ilvl 100, it'll still go down to about the same.

Ilv gear is irrelevant for 2 classes. Tanks and healers. I say this because I earned most of my gear barding and then bought stuff for my mage.
So unless its their only class ...the ilvl of gear doesn't necessarily mean they are an expert at that class.
That being said garuda is a test on the whm to see if they can manage their mana, which sadly doesn't regenerate very fast. I have yet to go back and attempt a run at garuda....kept forgetting to use the 30% increase button, which would have helped considerably in healing.

So sorry you had to experience that.

It's been my experience in other games as well as xiv that typically the player who feels the need to brag and boast about how great his gear is as soon as the party is formed, will most probably be the player making the worst mistakes. By endgame he should have had not just the gear, but the experience and job-based knowledge necessary to compensate for an undergeared/inexperienced tank as long as the tank is putting effort into tanking properly, which I'm assuming you were doing since you went on to win it with a party of other less experienced players. (Congrats on that, btw~) You did good. Don't let him get you too far down.

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Originally Posted by Merryl

Ilv gear is irrelevant for 2 classes. Tanks and healers. I say this because I earned most of my gear barding and then bought stuff for my mage.

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Err, what? High level gear is very important for those 2 classes as well.

My advice to you, OP, at this point would be to start gathering nice people you find in an LS or FC, or join one that suits that. When it comes to Duty Finder, you never know who or what you're going to get. Some people, unfortunately, have a chip on their shoulder about newer players. By finding people you can actually have fun with and enjoy the game with, you will have a much more pleasant experience, especially once you reach lvl50.

Use the tools at your disposal; check the Server Forums here, ask around in Party Finer, in shout, anything that will help you find people who either share your exact goal or are willing to help you get there. This will be important when you decide you're ready to take on things like The Binding Coil of Bahamut or other high level dungeons. Also, Castrum Meridianum and Praetorium will be a much more pleasant experience if you don't use Duty Finder at all. It may take longer to find at least 8 people who will join you, but the experience and friendship you gain from it will be invaluable.

As far as actual dungeons themselves go, there are 2 schools of thought: those that would prefer to go in blind and learn through practice/experience, and those that prefer to look up everything they can about it beforehand. This sparks tons of debates, and in reality both schools have valid points. Think about yourself, and what you like to do, and try to find people who will share that idea. Have a Goal and Vision in mind. Either direction takes practice, there's next to no avoiding that unless you are a prodigy, but how you handle the failures and pick yourself up are what's important. Good luck, and I hope you find what you're looking for.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

Err, what? High level gear is very important for those 2 classes as well.

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did you even read it? I said that people don't have to be geared in their relevant classes to obtain gear. In other words someone who's never tanked in dungeon can use another class to get dungeon drops or allagan tomes. Buy all i90 and still never set foot inside a dungeon with the other class.
Here's your troll cookie for the attempt to take sentences out of context.

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Originally Posted by Merryl

did you even read it? I said that people don't have to be geared in their relevant classes to obtain gear. In other words someone who's never tanked in dungeon can use another class to get dungeon drops or allagan tomes. Buy all i90 and still never set foot inside a dungeon with the other class.
Here's your troll cookie for the attempt to take sentences out of context.

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I did read the whole post, it's just unclear why you said it's irrelevant for those two classes. One can do that just as well for DPS.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

I did read the whole post, it's just unclear why you said it's irrelevant for those two classes. One can do that just as well for DPS.

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That's true. It works for all of them. I know you just took it personal. The higher level gear is more important for endgame coil and ex primals.

Don't let the experienced and well equipped players ruin your experience. They ALL died to Garuda and Titan when they met them first. They have only forgotten about it. I remember that the music in Titan (Story Mode) stressed me so much because I had to look out for many things for the 1st time that I had to turn it off during the Fight. Sadly Level 50 (with Item Level > 50) players are only using these dungeons to get their tomes for Endgame gear quickly. Patience is not their highest priority. Just learn with your very own speed, grow a thick skin and sourround you with players who are in the same or similiar boat as you are. The Game makes lots of Fun, just forget about the high level pricks you will meet on your way. If a player wants you to teach something, listen and try it out but if he is only bitching without giving advice, move on.

If a player's going to brag about the iLvl of their gear in a sub 50 dungeon, they are actually an idiot. The item level sync actually pushes their gear down to roughly similar stats to that of a white item one level below the cap - regardless of how good it is. For an example for Garuda, if you had green iLvl 44 gear (from Dzemael) or Aetherial iLvl 45/6 gear, you would likely actually be better geared than someone in i90 gear. The only reason it seems they have an advantage is due to the stat points from levelling not getting synced down, and that they're still decked out in item level appropriate gear in every slot one way or another, whereas someone who's newly levelling is likely carrying a few slots that are a few levels under.

That aside, if he's running out of MP in Garuda Normal, he's doing something horribly wrong. If you're a decent healer you can even be the one bursting down the feathers with the MP-devouring Holy, and you can still have the MP to heal the battle to completion - I say that from experience.

You will occasionally run into jerks in this game. Just remember that they are the rarity, not the common. You'll remember them because they stand out, but they only stood out because you had no problem with the other 3 players in all the other content you've done.

Also, congratulations on clearing Garuda!

If its not too late, you can look for me in game ^_^, we can help figure out end game content together because those are coming up for me as well.

and don't worry about those ppl, there are still some really good people out there that are experienced players and willing to lend a helping hand, I can probably get us a good party going to tackle on end game content!

This game is full of great people who will be glad to help you and walk you through stuff (if you are willing to listen) Then there are about 10% of the people who are elitist and have a iLVL over 9000!!!!! and you need to bow to them.
Let them blow steam and just do what I do. Say random and stupid stuff to them that makes no sense. If they are mad you are not decked out in level 50 gear while in the lvl 45 trial,you let them know you have an uncle who once punched the president in the right knee. Then sit back and watch them rage because you can care less about him.

When all else fails please refer to my sig that I have used for a very very long time.

I think the point was that high level gear is easier to get with the second and later jobs. So they could have fate ground whm to 50 and then equipped all of their scholar gear leaving them with a high ilvl but no experience.

And yes, that can apply to any class.