SMN AOE damage advice

So as the title states I'm looking for a little advice on how to approach large AOE pulls as a SMN. I'm relatively now to the job as I main SCH but now I'm finding myself helping from the dps side of things more and more and have become comfortable with my single target performance.

So how do you SMNs approach the large pulls such as the feathers in Garuda EX, T4 or even the opening pulls of a brayflox speed run?

I typically use a shadowflare miasma II, garuda's AOE and then tab through doing bio (or ruin if they are going down too fast for bio)... But I feel I'm not doing things correctly or getting meaningful dps in these situations. Or is the SMN's AOE capability just that lack luster beyond about 3 mobs? Any advice is appreciated.

I do the standard three DoTs, Swiftcast Shadow Flare, run in for Miasma 2, while running in Garuda has Contagion'ed and I've Bane'ed, then Miasma 2 connects and I switch between groups of 3 so the standard three and Miasma 2 are always up along with Shadow Flare. Ruin is a waste on large groups when all my DoTs will be doing twice as much damage.

Blizzard II is a DPS increase with anything 3 targets or over compared to Ruin.

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Originally Posted by Sen_Terrechant

Blizzard II is a DPS increase with anything 3 targets or over compared to Ruin.

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Not to be that guy but since it's a 50 potency, it's anything 2 targets and over though it's debatable for the MP cost to gain for next pull haha

There are a few posts around the interwebs that list little tips and tricks for getting the most out of SMN AoE. This is pretty much the bread and butter; you'll start to notice little gaps here and there where you can improve on your timing.

On really big pulls, pretty much Haukke Hard and Bray, You're going to put out better damage if you put up Swiftcast Shadowflare and Miasma II BEFORE you apply your main dots.

Make sure Spur/Rouse are both active when you cast Enkindle.

As for Bane, the best thing to do is cast your main three dots then do your first Bane. Then start spamming Blizzard II and cast Contagion; once your dots are refreshed use Bane when its available. Bane targets are random but this double bane should get most of the mobs. Throw out an Enkindle somewhere in the Blizzard spam and you're pretty much good to go. Refresh Miasma II when needed.

As for smaller packs, it's what you would expect. For fights like T4 etc, you'll need to keep track of your MP consumption from Blizzard Spam. For a 4 man, #MoreDots #BurnIt.

Make sure DOTs are fresh on garuda just before plumes spawn and bane when they come, go to the biggest cluster and blizzard. Only SF and miasma the plumes that near garuda otherwise it will be a waste.
If you really want to be efficient, save enkindle for plumes etc

I usually DoT the largest mob in the group first. (Largest HP pool)

RS, B2,M, B. Contagoin, Swift Shadow Flare, Bane, Miasma 2. DoT up next group while weaving Rouse Spur Enkindle Aerial Slash. Bane to next mobs.
M2 should fall off so re apply. Then Blizz 2 spam.

Using Quelling strikes is a good idea.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Not to be that guy but since it's a 50 potency, it's anything 2 targets and over though it's debatable for the MP cost to gain for next pull haha

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Yeah two and over is fine as well, i just tend to think with two targets we are better off just going for our normal single target rotation [with bane of course] and switching targets after but thats me :3

was wondering about this myself, as I have taken SMN to be my main job. Usually in Bray what I do is DOTs, Bane, SF, then tab to look for target with no dots, apply dots and Bane again. I usually do this in groups of 6 mobs or more. Also, and please let me know if this is good or bad since I am semi-new to game (been playing since April); I made a macro where I linked Bane and Aerial Slash, that way when I bane a group I also make pet (Garuda-egi) do its AoE dmg attack on same bane target.

Thanks for all the responses. It is really helpful. I think I was coming at it from the right direction and would eventually get it but you have helped me along a little bit faster than doing all the experimenting on my own.

Much appreciated.

Yea all these other smn pretty much got it covered.

What I wanted to ask is, when you use a normal Bane, will it apply on a mob that already has a contagioned Bane? For example, I apply DoTs/Contagion and then Bane, now I toggle through mobs to find one with no DoTs, so I apply them and Bane again.

Will that second Bane effect a new batch and ignore the mobs with contagioned bane, or will it land on those mobs and by doing so also lower their timers?

What I'm hoping is that we can pretty much DoT 8 mobs this way and that means SMN AoE is really not bad at all, better than Brds even.

Yea all these other smn pretty much got it covered.

What I wanted to ask is, when you use a normal Bane, will it apply on a mob that already has a contagioned Bane? For example, I apply DoTs/Contagion and then Bane, now I toggle through mobs to find one with no DoTs, so I apply them and Bane again.

Will that second Bane effect a new batch and ignore the mobs with contagioned bane, or will it land on those mobs and by doing so also lower their timers?

What I'm hoping is that we can pretty much DoT 8 mobs this way and that means SMN AoE is really not bad at all, better than Brds even.

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Originally Posted by Rydia13

Yea all these other smn pretty much got it covered.

What I wanted to ask is, when you use a normal Bane, will it apply on a mob that already has a contagioned Bane? For example, I apply DoTs/Contagion and then Bane, now I toggle through mobs to find one with no DoTs, so I apply them and Bane again.

Will that second Bane effect a new batch and ignore the mobs with contagioned bane, or will it land on those mobs and by doing so also lower their timers?

What I'm hoping is that we can pretty much DoT 8 mobs this way and that means SMN AoE is really not bad at all, better than Brds even.

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Bane will try to land on any mobs close to the one that it was used off of, so potentially ones that already have the DoTs. It wont be able to overwrite any DoTs that have a longer timer than what it would put on, it will just fizzle. It's best to use the Triangle method. Basically find a mob that is at the furthest point of where you will be Baning to and DoT it up, as the Bane skill takes priority on how close the mobs are to the original.
Summoner AOE is much better than Bards below 8 mobs. If you can learn to ramp up all your DoTs fast, Summoner AOE is actually better than BLM, up until a Second Flare at which point it starts to pull ahead. Black Mage is by far better with more than 8 mobs.

Sort of related but keep in mind that SMN AoE generates a lot of hate and 90% of tanks in this game don't realize how much damage a SMN is putting out. Expect to have anywhere from 1-3 mobs break off from the pack and maul you a bit before your tank comes to the rescue. Don't panic, and don't start casting Physick on yourself. Just run back to the tank and maybe refresh Miasma II if it's about to run out. Alternately you could Blizzard II and wiggle out to safety.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

Sort of related but keep in mind that SMN AoE generates a lot of hate and 90% of tanks in this game don't realize how much damage a SMN is putting out. Expect to have anywhere from 1-3 mobs break off from the pack and maul you a bit before your tank comes to the rescue. Don't panic, and don't start casting Physick on yourself. Just run back to the tank and maybe refresh Miasma II if it's about to run out. Alternately you could Blizzard II and wiggle out to safety.

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Saw this last night in Amdapor Keep, been awhile since a Tank lost aggro on something I've been attacking when I just do what I always do. SMN has decent damage potential and very good potential at that, but it's enmity generation isn't the highest because it's over time damage. I honestly had to pull out Titan after the second boss because he was losing enmity way too often trying to do speed run big pulls, and he was a full 90 + some 100 gear tank with his Atmas, not like he was undergeared, just not very good apparently as a PLD.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

Sort of related but keep in mind that SMN AoE generates a lot of hate and 90% of tanks in this game don't realize how much damage a SMN is putting out. Expect to have anywhere from 1-3 mobs break off from the pack and maul you a bit before your tank comes to the rescue. Don't panic, and don't start casting Physick on yourself. Just run back to the tank and maybe refresh Miasma II if it's about to run out. Alternately you could Blizzard II and wiggle out to safety.

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Yeah during big AoE pulls a tank worth its salt wont lose hate to a SMN normally. If we get hate, then a BLM will certainly get it with a Flare crit

The description of Bane states it has a 25 yalm range...then when landed on a centrally located mob, it infects "all" mobs in an 8 yalm range. Here, I copied it, so this is the paste.

8y aoe Spreads a target's Bio, Bio II, or Miasma to all nearby enemies. Duration: Time remaining on original effect. If the target is under the effect of Aetherflow, 15% chance that Bio, Bio II, or Miasma duration resets.

In a group you should probably stick with the Poison pet, since when you cast Enkindle it automatically extends all of the Summoner's dots by 15 seconds.

what is poison pet ?

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Originally Posted by tOnni3

what is poison pet ?

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He's referring to Garuda, since Contagion and Bio and all those thing relate to diseases and sicknesses.

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Originally Posted by Spart

The description of Bane states it has a 25 yalm range...then when landed on a centrally located mob, it infects "all" mobs in an 8 yalm range. Here, I copied it, so this is the paste.

8y aoe Spreads a target's Bio, Bio II, or Miasma to all nearby enemies. Duration: Time remaining on original effect. If the target is under the effect of Aetherflow, 15% chance that Bio, Bio II, or Miasma duration resets.

In a group you should probably stick with the Poison pet, since when you cast Enkindle it automatically extends all of the Summoner's dots by 15 seconds.

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A few correction.:

Bane has a target limit of 3 additional monsters, so it's not all mobs in a pack and with good reasons. No target limit would be broken.
Enkindle is not the DoT extender, that's Contagion. Enkindle is the 5 minute CD for the Pet's Signature move.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

A few correction.:

Bane has a target limit of 3 additional monsters, so it's not all mobs in a pack and with good reasons. No target limit would be broken.
Enkindle is not the DoT extender, that's Contagion. Enkindle is the 5 minute CD for the Pet's Signature move.

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This.

Garudas Enkindle is a pretty decent AoE nuke.

Ifrits Enkindle is a single target DoT.

Titans Enkindle is a GTAoE DoT ala Shadowflare

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Originally Posted by Sen_Terrechant

This.

Garudas Enkindle is a pretty decent AoE nuke.

Ifrits Enkindle is a single target DoT.

Titans Enkindle is a GTAoE DoT ala Shadowflare

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I haven't used it in a while but I'm pretty sure Ifrit's Enkindle is AoE damage of 200 potency with an AoE 20 potency DoT accompanying it.

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Originally Posted by Rydia13

I haven't used it in a while but I'm pretty sure Ifrit's Enkindle is AoE damage of 200 potency with an AoE 20 potency DoT accompanying it.

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I honestly dont use Ifrit enough to know, so you may be right!

Hmm I tend to use ifrit if it's just a boss with no or minimal ads and I'm almost positive that it is just a single target direct damage with additional damage over time, I may be wrong ill double check tonight but I'm almost positive o.O

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Originally Posted by Rydia13

I haven't used it in a while but I'm pretty sure Ifrit's Enkindle is AoE damage of 200 potency with an AoE 20 potency DoT accompanying it.

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That is correct, the DoT applies to all the target hit.

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Originally Posted by LelouchVii

Hmm I tend to use ifrit if it's just a boss with no or minimal ads and I'm almost positive that it is just a single target direct damage with additional damage over time, I may be wrong ill double check tonight but I'm almost positive o.O

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All the Enkindle abilities are AoE, just different types off AoE is all.

Ah right so ifrits is just a less potent aoe thanks :P

Ifrit isn't even a thing. He's just there to make you looker cooler. He really needs a buff but it probably wont happen until pet revamp in 3.0; since summoners with Garuda are already competitive DPS. I don't see Ifrit being useful for awhile.

On Garuda Trisasta is working fine because then you give other players Time for their AoE while you casting Bane, if fast enough (you need some practice for timing) you get miasma2 on them too...
Shadoflare should be up before Garuda arrives on her spot...

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Originally Posted by Spart

The description of Bane states it has a 25 yalm range...then when landed on a centrally located mob, it infects "all" mobs in an 8 yalm range. Here, I copied it, so this is the paste.

8y aoe Spreads a target's Bio, Bio II, or Miasma to all nearby enemies. Duration: Time remaining on original effect. If the target is under the effect of Aetherflow, 15% chance that Bio, Bio II, or Miasma duration resets.

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Bane
Ability
Range 25y
Radius 8y
Cast: Instant
Recast: 10.00s
Spreads a target's Bio, Bio II, and Miasma to up to three nearby enemies.
Duration: Time remaining on original effect
Additional Effect: 15% chance that Bio, Bio II, and Miasma duration resets if shorter than original effect duration
Only available when under the effect of Aetherflow.
Acquired 30 ACN
Affinity ACN SMN SCH

. . .Odd that your copy/paste is completely and utterly different from what mine says.

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

On Garuda Trisasta is working fine because then you give other players Time for their AoE while you casting Bane, if fast enough (you need some practice for timing) you get miasma2 on them too...
Shadoflare should be up before Garuda arrives on her spot...

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Shadowflare shouldn't be precasted before the pull else it will not benefit from RS. Tri-Disaster is also way too long of a cast time to time perfectly on Garuda due to the speed at which the feathers go away from her.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Shadowflare shouldn't be precasted before the pull else it will not benefit from RS. Tri-Disaster is also way too long of a cast time to time perfectly on Garuda due to the speed at which the feathers go away from her.

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Just try it ;)

Plumes dies fast just fine without the hassle of a 3 seconds cast time of a < than 100 damage ability than you have an high chance of miss timing. You're just better off Bane'ing off of Garuda, Miasma II and Blizzard II if necessary.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Plumes dies fast just fine without the hassle of a 3 seconds cast time of a < than 100 damage ability than you have an high chance of miss timing. You're just better off Bane'ing off of Garuda, Miasma II and Blizzard II if necessary.

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Assuming we're talking about the feathers used by Garuda during Howling Eye (Hard)[?], I've found the easiest way to deal with them is a well-timed Tri-disaster, and no one attacking them. I make sure to tell the party beforehand, and the result is the feathers detonating where they spawned, away from all the rocks.

If the DPS aren't terrible to being with, that's not even needed. Feathers are going to explodre regardless of where they are at.

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

Assuming we're talking about the feathers used by Garuda during Howling Eye (Hard)[?], I've found the easiest way to deal with them is a well-timed Tri-disaster, and no one attacking them. I make sure to tell the party beforehand, and the result is the feathers detonating where they spawned, away from all the rocks.

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That actually works huh? Pretty crafty. I thought they were immune to Bind the last time I tried something like that, or maybe it was in EX Howling Eye that I tried it, I don't remember.

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Originally Posted by LelouchVii

Ah right so ifrits is just a less potent aoe thanks :P

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Wait what? Ifrit has the highest potency Enkindle of all the Egis. Are you reading the tooltip properly?
It is a cone facing away from Ifrit and is:
200 potency + 20 potency dot for 15 seconds = 300 potency total

Aerial Blast is a circle centered on the target and has 250 potency total.

The difference is even larger when you have Spur + Rouse up.

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

Assuming we're talking about the feathers used by Garuda during Howling Eye (Hard)[?], I've found the easiest way to deal with them is a well-timed Tri-disaster, and no one attacking them. I make sure to tell the party beforehand, and the result is the feathers detonating where they spawned, away from all the rocks.

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I learned this trick in Garuda HM, and now I wonder if maybe it was you I learned it from back then! Either way, props for this. Ever since I learned about it I've been trying to use Tri Disaster in creative ways.

For something with such a nice casting animation, it sure feels like a spell that a lot of people don't really bother with. But you can do some cool things with it if you know when to throw it down. Like when the tank dies because he thinks he's a speedrunning god and pulls way too many enemies.