Lore perspective on Rogue/Ninja

We have not been given much in the way of information regarding the new class/job however the tidbits of lore we already have is fascinating. We know that the Rogues guild originated in Limsa Lominsa and evolved from bands of thieves, which given the nature of Lominsa as a city of pirates makes quite a bit of sense. We also know that Yugiri brought the arts of the Ninja from Doma, and that the numbers among them are minimal at best. I am fascinated by the fact that this job not only has a pseudo representation in Eorzea but has to now be adapted for various races.

We can predict that the Hyur and Mikote will easily adapt to a stealth based job, as well as the Lalafel, however Reogadin and Elezen would in all likelyhood have a difficult time adapting to something that is inherently against their nature. For the record I roll a Hellsguard and can't wait to switch to the new class/job.

I'm a bit saddened that they aren't going to have a true Thief job in the game. I think their excuse that "No city would allow a thieve's guild to operate within its walls" is a poor excuse. I can understand that being a city of pirates, rogue kinda evolved from the thieves and pickpockets and can be used as stealthy scouts. But that's just the officially sanctioned guild. Since when does an underground organization like a Thieve's guild need the permission of the city to operate? If anything, they would probably have a guild/post in every major city and the powers that be may or may not even know of its existence. I think they tried too hard to make the class>job progression fit the mold that they started with for all the other classes.

Now, as far as races adapting to stealth based jobs, it would be pretty funny to see a Roe trying to be sneaky and hiding their huge frame behind a small Lalafel tank.

How would you have your main character, in essence a celebrated hero, one of the Warriors of Light (and likely second lieutenant of one of Eorzea's Grand Companies) join an underground organisation without someone noticing?
At least when it is an officially sanctioned guild it won't affect your character's morality in the eyes of others, however shaky it already seems at times.

The term "thief" is already negative looking. I personally only see the FF thief as "shady looking", but considering that even Limsa Lominsa cracks down on piracy, I guess being a Thief is not good.

It would go by another name with another purpose. At the end of the day we're a Warrior of Light, but really, if monks level up by absorbing others' Life Force, how are Thieves going to level up? Practicing robbery? Running a protection racket?

Maybe Limsa Lominsa will sanction a "Thieves Guild" as in "the guys that kept bumping onto unsuspecting Garleans", just like their pirates

Let's not preclude a future Thief job - it would be quite fitting for the thief to be portrayed as a L30+ event, where you are pulled aside by a master thief and trained in unsanctioned skills.

As for Ninja, their use of symbols makes me suspect that the Arcanist will be the required subclass, due to their use of symbol-driven arcanima, while the archer's quelling and raging strikes will come front and centre as the third class' available skills.

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Originally Posted by Catapult

Let's not preclude a future Thief job - it would be quite fitting for the thief to be portrayed as a L30+ event, where you are pulled aside by a master thief and trained in unsanctioned skills.

As for Ninja, their use of symbols makes me suspect that the Arcanist will be the required subclass, due to their use of symbol-driven arcanima, while the archer's quelling and raging strikes will come front and centre as the third class' available skills.

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I'd agree with these preempts for the reasons you've suggested :)

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Originally Posted by Catapult

Let's not preclude a future Thief job - it would be quite fitting for the thief to be portrayed as a L30+ event, where you are pulled aside by a master thief and trained in unsanctioned skills.

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This is something I was thinking about before after remembering the SCH questline. What if Thieves had certain skills that have been lost through time after becoming Rogues and this master thief you mention could be the last remaining one who knows these skills and decides to mentor you? Think of it like Assassin's Creed 3 where Conner finds the old man who teaches him how to be an assasssin, where the old man is the last to know the ways of the assassin

After all, they specifically said that Rogues are not Thieves, but that doesn't mean Rogues can't become Thieves, especially since they were worried about guilds. Jobs don't have official guilds ;)

Even more interesting lore wise... if this new class is available to be played from the beginning as I presume it will be, and the ninja job is taught by yugiri as the story kinda hinted.. how much of a paradox will it seem levelling to 50 being trained by yugiri, beating the story, and then yugiri comes from doma as a refugee.

I do see your points and the possibility that Thief could be a job added later where you get taught to carry on the tradition by and old master. I certainly hope so and will keep my fingers crossed.
With Lady Yugiri presumably being the one who teaches you the arts of the Ninja, it'll probably be content that's locked until after you progress to that point in the story. Which means, new characters probably won't be able to start as a rogue. Its not something that has never happened before. If we take FFXI as an example, there were a few jobs you could select as your starting, and then later on, you had to unlock access to the other jobs via quest. I don't see why rogue/ninja would be any different in this case especially to keep from creating a story paradox.



As far as us being warriors of light and trying to keep up our good reputation....I think anyone who has become a black mage threw that out the window. The job itself was outlawed, and then the person who teaches you the ways of the Black is basically an escaped convict.....shrug.

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Originally Posted by Kicha

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Ququruka wasn't really much of an outlaw, or even an escaped convict, as... it was all in their minds because he told them so? Dude was basically killing time until you showed up and started to fulfill the Prophecy of Covering Ququruka's Wizard Butt.

From the descriptions of Rogue I saw, they're basically Robin Hood.

I think the devs might be straying away from a Thief class due to mechanical reasons. I mean, a class/job devoted to...obtaining items? That would both invalidate other classes and their farming techniques (or be extremely useless [go ahead, steal that one crafting material from that snurble]) and also be extraordinarily useless in a real battle. Just look at FFXI's Thief and how it started as a (weak) thief, turned into an enmity-tool, and rounded out as a back-stabby rogue toward the end. Even now, from the last time I checked, thieves are inherently useless outside of the (debatable) use of the Treasure Hunter trait. So all that back-stabbiness and hate-management turned BACK into a job about items, and a job that no one wanted at that due to the wonkiness of the RNG.

I personally see that as a good thing, however, as we'll have one less completely unbalanced class.

I just kind of wonder where the Rogue 'guild hall' would be, as there aren't any unused spots on the Limsa maps that could potentially house it. I'm guessing an NPC will walk us in to a different map. I just hope it isn't cheesy Robin Hood stuff like gornotck suggested.

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Originally Posted by gornotck

Ququruka wasn't really much of an outlaw, or even an escaped convict, as... it was all in their minds because he told them so? Dude was basically killing time until you showed up and started to fulfill the Prophecy of Covering Ququruka's Wizard Butt.

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Yes, even though that was the case, the general public doesn't know that and would still consider him an outlaw...

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Originally Posted by Kicha

... I can understand that being a city of pirates, rogue kinda evolved from the thieves and pickpockets and can be used as stealthy scouts. But that's just the officially sanctioned guild. Since when does an underground organization like a Thieve's guild need the permission of the city to operate? ...

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It seems like rogues are the land-version of privateers. Privateers were basically government-sanctioned pirates that were allowed to prey on rival nations (mostly against the Spanish) in exchange for turning over some of their loot to the government. It's possible that rogues steal from other cities/nations in exchange for turning over some of their stolen goods, hence why there is a guild. It's likely that it's still pretty shady and not known by the public, and I bet the guild story will focus on a member taking thievery too far (there's always that one ass who thinks (s)he knows better than the guild leader).

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Originally Posted by Wolfandre

I just kind of wonder where the Rogue 'guild hall' would be, as there aren't any unused spots on the Limsa maps that could potentially house it. I'm guessing an NPC will walk us in to a different map. I just hope it isn't cheesy Robin Hood stuff like gornotck suggested.

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We've already been given a big hint. We dropped Yugiri off with the Fraternity on the lower decks. It's not currently accessible, but a locked gate shows a path continuing behind a rock face that is across the water from Fisherman's Bottom.

http://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acci...c5af6754d3.png
Screenshot 1 and Screenshot 2

This is a secret society. Less Robin Hood, more Assassin's Creed.

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Originally Posted by Kicha

Now, as far as races adapting to stealth based jobs, it would be pretty funny to see a Roe trying to be sneaky and hiding their huge frame behind a small Lalafel tank.

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In the 1.0 MRD questline... a roe managed to hid himself in a small barrel.

...scared the jeeves out of me.

"Few are privy to this information, but Limsa Lominsa is home to a certain...secret fraternity. Its members are trained in a form of combat not unlike your own."

"Though you may labor to believe it, Thancred was once something of a scoundrel, who fraternized with the criminal class in these parts."

"To the south stands a gate leading to a pier for smaller fishing vessels. Look for an inconspicuous Hyuran man there, and present the letter to him. He serves as a gatekeeper of sorts."


We had quite a few informations about that guild all along ^^

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Originally Posted by Aethergoggles

Even more interesting lore wise... if this new class is available to be played from the beginning as I presume it will be, and the ninja job is taught by yugiri as the story kinda hinted.. how much of a paradox will it seem levelling to 50 being trained by yugiri, beating the story, and then yugiri comes from doma as a refugee.

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I was thinking on this last night, actually. Perhaps Rogue/Ninja will be implemented as a sort of advanced class/job, that becomes available after you complete the Leviathan events. Or perhaps your actual trainer won't be Yugiri at all.

On that note, am I being paranoid here or does it seem suspiscious to anybody else that the entirety of Doma seems to have some degree of Ninja training? I kind of doubt that they're our enemies, but... I mean, they are ninjas. Subterfuge is sort of their thing.

The entirety? Yugiri told us she was trained to one of the martial art from the Far East. A random NPC doesn't know much about fighting or martial arts, just like most domans probably.

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Originally Posted by Alenore

The entirety? Yugiri told us she was trained to one of the martial art from the Far East. A random NPC doesn't know much about fighting or martial arts, just like most domans probably.

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And yet, we see that many domans do have some rudimentary training. There's a child that says "Back home we learned how to run through the treetops!" or something to that effect. Even if they're treating it as a game, it looks to me like from a young age all Domans are given at least a rudimentary training in the ninja way, perhaps to identify and select those with exceptional talent. It wouldn't surprise me if Doma was a major base of Near Eastern ninja training.

Of course, this is all conjecture on my part.

It could also be the child pulling the Warrior of Light's leg.. Wanting to impress him/her, because of what he/she has done to help the refugees.. And because we are awesome.

I don't really think "thief" would be viewed that negatively. Yes, I know XI is a ship that's sailed etc etc etc but the class was far more of an assassin, really. As for stealing, our characters steal all of the time. There's achievements (at least in 1.0) for how much gil you managed to get off humanoids you'd killed, and come on, guys. Half of our shiny dungeon armour is stolen since taking something without paying for it, sometimes even killing things for it is stealing, no matter how liberally you look at it.

...Thinking about it, even treasure hunting is stealing.

Anyway, Rogue will likely be an offshoot of the guild Yugiri starts training in Limsa Lominsa.
Ninja has been stated in SE's notes about the class on the launcher as "hailing from the far east" and a battle class born out of necessity. Hoping they're going to go Aht Urhgan on us with a future expansion of the far east, and everything being 20x meaner there.

Pretty sure the "secret society" that's already in place is going to be the Rogue class, and Yugiri is going to teach us the Ninja job.

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Originally Posted by faris

...Thinking about it, even treasure hunting is stealing.

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"I am NOT a Thief! I'm a TREASURE HUNTER!"

I want to do Rogue with the Treasure Hunter title so bad because of Locke...

It's an interesting question of who is going to turn out to be the new Guild Master. And of course, there will have to be a Guild Receptionist; and all the usual lovable characters adding color to the guild hall.

This is farfetched and likely untenable given the story associated with Yugiri, but it would be fun if the Guild Master turned out to be master Carvallain :)

given the mention about them "playing a role in maintaining order" in LL, i would guess it's less robin hood or assassin's creed, and more the admiral's secret enforcers...

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Originally Posted by Wadoka

It's an interesting question of who is going to turn out to be the new Guild Master. And of course, there will have to be a Guild Receptionist; and all the usual lovable characters adding color to the guild hall.

This is farfetched and likely untenable given the story associated with Yugiri, but it would be fun if the Guild Master turned out to be master Carvallain :)

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If I were SE, I'd be saving Carvallain for the Pirate job that expands on the Musketeer class, of which Captain Reyner of the Yellowjackets is the likely guildmaster.
And if it isn't Carvallian, it'll be his Sanguine Siren Rival and the job quests will have much banter between the two. I'm confident that that ship will eventually sail. ^_^

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Originally Posted by Catapult

If I were SE, I'd be saving Carvallain for the Pirate job that expands on the Musketeer class, of which Captain Reyner of the Yellowjackets is the likely guildmaster.
And if it isn't Carvallian, it'll be his Sanguine Siren Rival and the job quests will have much banter between the two. I'm confident that that ship will eventually sail. ^_^

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I hope that ship sails too. I'm a shipper :). One of these days SE needs to resolve all the unresolved "he/she/maybe" setups in the class quests - Aldus and Mylla especially (Gladiator guild being near and dear to my heart).

Pirate? What? I beg your pardon! I'm a Free Trader! You might also call me a Corsair of sorts... ;)

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Originally Posted by Catapult

If I were SE, I'd be saving Carvallain for the Pirate job that expands on the Musketeer class, of which Captain Reyner of the Yellowjackets is the likely guildmaster.
And if it isn't Carvallian, it'll be his Sanguine Siren Rival and the job quests will have much banter between the two. I'm confident that that ship will eventually sail. ^_^

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Are you referring to the red and blue pirates in the middle of this image of notable Lominsan persons? All the others in the images are Scions, guild members, or leaders of government or armed forces, so maybe they will have a similar role (if they don't already).

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Originally Posted by Catapult

We've already been given a big hint. We dropped Yugiri off with the Fraternity on the lower decks. It's not currently accessible, but a locked gate shows a path continuing behind a rock face that is across the water from Fisherman's Bottom.

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*nodnod* Was apparently snoozing when I finished up 2.2's questline.

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Originally Posted by Apoptomon

Are you referring to the red and blue pirates in the middle of this image of notable Lominsan persons? All the others in the images are Scions, guild members, or leaders of government or armed forces, so maybe they will have a similar role (if they don't already).

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You are correct, sir. They are significant players in the "mercentile forces" of Limsa.

(And government figures aren't precluded from hosting job quests - WHM is a case in point.)

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Originally Posted by Wolfandre

I just hope it isn't cheesy Robin Hood stuff like gornotck suggested.

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It pretty much is.

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Originally Posted by Apoptomon

Are you referring to the red and blue pirates (here)

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Yep, there's Carvallain and Rhoswyn, big as life.