Can we get some non-linear content?

This game reminds me of FFXIII at times, and not because of the haircuts:

The Binding Coil of Bahamut; Turn 1, Turn 2, Turn 3, Turn 4, Turn 5, Done.
The Second Coil of Bahamut; Turn 1, Turn 2, Turn 3, Turn 4, Done.
Crystal Tower; Path 1, Path 2, Path 3, Final Boss, Done.

So damn linear...

Dungeons are a bit better at this, but rarely. Most of them have optional corners to go in. Toto-Rak has two paths to pick from that lead to the same place. Tam-Tara has you getting to the boss, but having to go somewhere else to unlock it to move forward. Why are examples of this so rare, and completely lacking come endgame?

Can The Third Coil of Bahamut be more like;

Turn 1, unlocks Turn 2 and Turn A.
Turn 2, requires Turn 1 completed, unlocks Turn 3 and Turn B.
Turn 3, requires Turn 2 completed, unlocks Turn 4, Turn Alpha and Turn Omega.
Turn 4, requires Turn 3, A, and/or B completed.

Turns A and B could just be similar to the first Turn 3 but with a point/boss. Turn Alpha and Omega could just be optional bosses for when you've cleared Turn 4 for the week. Remember when Final Fantasy games had optional bosses? Lets get more Ozma please.

All the content is optional, more or less...that said I would definitely support optional bosses and whatnot. Nothing wrong with more variety.

Your example was linear too lol :|

The only difference is we need to do extra turns in order to do the t4. That was what I understood from that.
Now if you told me inside of each turn had different paths to different bosses we got that already in coil 1 t2 but last boss is always the same in this case. What could be different was a randomization of last bosses and sub bosses, depending of the paths you took or what you opened, and would means different drops for each. But in the end people would know which paths and mechanics to unlock certain boss or chest so would end linear with just a little more work to do :X

Actually to not be linear the map itself could generate randomly like in Diablo 3, you get each time you create a game a different placement of each tomb or dungeon or elites etc, here is fixed. SE was thinking of that but would confuse new players and leave. If you don't remember Tam-Tara had 2 paths before and extra rooms but in the last beta they closed those paths making more linear and easier to do (also remove 1 mini-boss called bookman (Iron Giant mob with big sword)).

Non-linear like, IDK... maybe open dungeons like in FFxi? Sky... Sea... King Rampere's Tomb, Fey Yin?

Places you don't have to stand in line to get in, that kind of "non-linear"? I'm all for it, bring it SE!! "Yosheeeeeep!!!"

:cool:

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Originally Posted by Shiki_Lockhart

Your example was linear too lol :|

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It was a basic example, and I'd rather they try to make the game less linear than just repeat XIIIs level designs.

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Originally Posted by PSxpert2011

Non-linear like, IDK... maybe open dungeons like in FFxi? Sky... Sea... King Rampere's Tomb, Fey Yin?

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This too. I would absolutely love something like Sea in XIV, sans Absolute Virtue the Jailers were the highlight of XI for me.

Having dungeons actually result in something would be nice too. Make some of the dungeons open world zones that can only be accessed after clearing the dungeon, would make the world feel more alive.

Let's kill Nael wearing AF1, go go go.

In fairness Coil 1 Turn 2 has several choices the player can make, its just there not all optimal. Coil 1 turn 3 has only 1 right path but it has tons of wrong paths you can take by mistake.

Technically OP likes linear, but wants more branching linearity. Think 1.0 version's of Toto-rak.

3 bosses to choose from to complete.

I would love to see more of that kind of variance as well.

The dungeons were less linear in the alpha and beta stages, From what I understand people cried about how it was too hard in beta so they canned it.

pretty much 90% of ffxi was not linear, could get lost in that game everyday. To bad ffxiv arr isn't like that :(

Even if a dungeon becomes non-linear, ultimately, every party will conform to making the same path choices because they are the best.

Thus, we're back to being linear.

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Originally Posted by PSxpert2011

Non-linear like, IDK... maybe open dungeons like in FFxi? Sky... Sea... King Rampere's Tomb, Fey Yin?

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So basically more zones? This isn't even an accurate comparison. Dynamis, Salvage, Einherjar, and Limbus are more akin to CT and Coil because they are both "raids". The only thing that FFXI has that XIV doesn't is HNM.

When I first entered BC1 T1 back at launch I was shocked at the level design as it looked very similar to the great crystal in FFXII. I was stoked to think that we had to delve deep into this chasm to get to the boss but no just go through one corridor with some adds and kill the boss. Pretty lame attempt at level design as there was so much potential but it only a rush to a boss arena.

If I was to design that level I would make it so that you would have to flip switches at different points and to get to those points you need to teleport to other platforms floating around the area and the switches will need to be opened simultaneously meaning you will have to split your party in such a way that you can defeat the mobs there w/o having to back track. Basically Great Crystal again in FFXII and no there will be no hidden ultima weapon boss lol.

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Originally Posted by Chibionieko

In fairness Coil 1 Turn 2 has several choices the player can make, its just there not all optimal. Coil 1 turn 3 has only 1 right path but it has tons of wrong paths you can take by mistake.

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Which is why Crevox is right.
While T2 has options, people pick x sides according to the amount of melee or range. [I think...]
Still, doesn't matter too much because Enrage mode. They will just find whichever boss or path
is the easiest or fastest and pick that.

1.0's Thousand Maws of Toto Rak was 'arguably' non-linear - you had an optional mini-boss (if you knew how to get to him,) a regular end-dungeon boss (if you did everything normally) and a super end-dungeon boss (if you knew where to go and did more.)

That said, pretty much all of ARR's dungeons use 3 bosses in a linear fashion...here's hoping the new dungeons have some non-linearity to them.

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Originally Posted by Crevox

Even if a dungeon becomes non-linear, ultimately, every party will conform to making the same path choices because they are the best.

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Really? Every time I end up in Toto-Rak on Duty Roulette it's 50/50 which route I end up on. Thinking about it, back when Wanderer's Palace was a thing and speed runs weren't, I remember having some groups that took a different route in the middle section several times. Conformity only came with the "Pull everything" mentality that's accompanied excessive iLv.

Something like Turn 2 could have been handled much better, the fact that enrage is a thing at all is proof enough of that. Weaken the minibosses, making killing more of them more important, suddenly you have a case of splitting up into 4man groups. Every time you could take a different route. They could even have randomized which miniboss was in which section. Plenty of things they could have done to improve Turn 2...

Why make 4 bosses when people will always just choose the easiest one?]

Why come up with 4 original encounters for one instance when you can use them across 4?

OP doesn't know what he wants lol. No one knows what they want! Also, FFXIII was awesome so screw you! I hate how FFX and FFXIII are the exact same game but people choose to hate XIII.

When dungeons have paths people just pick one and stick to it, so I see no point.

Look in the old dungeons that had chests in places outside the main path, like AK. No one ever hunted them. SE already realized that and that's why new dungeons all have a single path.

On paper it surely nice to not have 1 path but in reality even if there are more paths people will just pick one (except a few players who will do it for the sake of it but the numbers would probably be negligible)...

Personally, I'd also like more path options and less completely linear dungeons as well. Places like Haukke Manor would be amazing to explore. You could always adjust the rewards too, like a second set of weapons for choosing the right boss or just something simple like a different balance of myth and sols depending on the path you take.

I do think though, the majority of people would stick to whatever path is easiest and just do what they could to get done fast. Most people don't have an interest in exploring the game, just rush to get collectibles as fast as possible. But that's a rant for another time. :P

GW2 has different paths for every dungeon, but ppl usually takes the fast one unless they want a specific drop, the way to make content less linear is random generated dungeons with trap rooms and optional bosses, and open-world content, this would take a lot of work, but it would also save some subs and attract more players.

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Originally Posted by Crevox

Even if a dungeon becomes non-linear, ultimately, every party will conform to making the same path choices because they are the best.

Thus, we're back to being linear.

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This. There's not point in non-linearity when most of the community wants to spend as little time as possible on content in order to get tomes fast. I'm fine with a straight line.

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Originally Posted by Moqi

This. There's not point in non-linearity when most of the community wants to spend as little time as possible on content in order to get tomes fast. I'm fine with a straight line.

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That's actually a problem with how SE handled Tomestone rewards. Back when AK was first adjusted so people couldn't skip 90% of it, it was obvious SE didn't want people skipping mobs. Instead of adding Gil, they should have made mobs drop Tomestones and adjusted the numbers rewarded/required accordingly, even add Tomestones to chests. That way if you're farming Tomestones it's much more likely you'll kill everything, much more likely dungeons could play out like old RPGs where you reach the boss and go "I need to turn back and check that left turn I didn't take", though I guess some people would hate that.

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Originally Posted by Razzle

When dungeons have paths people just pick one and stick to it, so I see no point.

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By this logic, SE should just delete Amdapor Keep, Wanderer's Palace, Pharos Sirius, Copperbell Mines (Hard), Haukke Manor (Hard), The Lost City of Amdapor, and Halatali (Hard), because Brayflox's Longstop (Hard) is the best option which absolutely everyone does for Tomestones. Why have multiple dungeons to do when people will pick one and stick to it? Why bother adding 3 dungeons an update when everyone is just going to pick one?

No. People like variety, SE was praised when they added new dungeons - or even just Mythology to Wanderer's Palace - to the game back when everyone hated running Amdapor Keep back to back. Now that 2/3s of the dungeon we get are just old ones moved around a bit, which naturally requires less effort from the developers, they should be putting that extra effort into make the dungeons themselves less linear by giving them more variety. Heck, just more interesting in general. Where are the traps and puzzles RPGs usually have in their dungeons? Take something like Amdapor Keep; if you fall off at Demon Wall, should that be an instant kill? I think it would have been more interesting if it put you in a basement type zone with a different boss. That is a terrible example, but it's still an example.