Isnt it time that white mages got buffed to level of Schoalr already?

Its starting to become obvious to even the diehard scholars who deny the gap between the two classes when 4 out of 5 pvp teams have a scholar over a white mage and Turn 6+ BC groups running double scholar on the high end guilds.

Scholar+pet is now churning out heals that is double the strength of cure two and not many fights in the game requires burst medica use as it did in turn 1. Its more about burst on a few targes which the scholar can patch up way quicker then a white mage utilizing pet on one target and physick on another target. Lets not even get started on damage mitigation/superior utility and cooldowns/superior dps in form of dots which gives scholar time to continue to heal and almost unlimited mana.

I don't know anything about PvP, but balancing PvE around PvP is not a good idea at all. Thus, if SCHs are as preferred as you say they are in PvP, separate adjustments for that are perhaps in place.

Now, as far as SCoB goes, I've yet to see anyone purposefully run dual-scholars. What kind of edge does that give? There is no Infirmity-gimmick like in Turn 5. Thinking about it, anything is doable, but some turns would be very annoying with just two scholars. Yes, I am a SCH main, but I do think the healer balance is good in this game at the moment - I do play both and have cleared all content. Apart from stuff like SoS scaling with Piety or having stuff like Presence of Mind be a bit more useful, I don't see much wrong with the WHM at all. Maybe some new skills or additions could help with the interest levels, but those will likely follow with the level cap increase anyway.

I prefer whm over sch for just about every fight. That being said, both jobs are pretty well balanced. The best groups, imo, have a whm and a sch for heals. They work well together.

Pvp is another story. But with future updates we dont know what jobs will be popular in pvp. Depending on how they do the new pvp fights, whm should be on equal ground with sch.

Honestly I would not understand why you would perfer a white mage over a scholar. White mage has a superior burst aoe group heal and an aoe damage stun. Minus niche tactics like turn 2 enrage timer it is inferior to a scholar in almost every way. I love my main scholar but even I see the shear difference in power between my class and the weaker white mage for 90% of content in this game so far. It favors scholar so much it is silly. Easy to figure out patterns make reactive white mage healing obselete on even aoe healing when a sacred soil and a preshield spread of aldo and succor win out.

Why are you acting like the WHM is so inferior in everything? More than anything, what you are describing is a hypothetical situation with top-tier players where they have mastered the content and try to push the runs to just a tiny bit faster with the off-DPS potential of 2 stacked scholars. Even then, due to the subpar synergy (compared to SCH/WHM), the scholars will have their hands more full than they would with a WHM partner, relatively speaking. Sure there are some instances where the raid-healing is very lenient for the most part, such as Turn 9 which is solohealable anyway, but that doesn't mean the WHM is suddenly useless.

A WHM can put out single target heals worth of 585~ potency without much mana loss over time, without Divine Seal, simply by Cure 1'ing, having Regen up and Cure 2'ing upon Freecure proccage. When Divine Seal is up, this becomes about 760~. That's not bad at all for a healer who is supposed to have its niche in raid-healing, burst healing and on-demand healing. (And that's just for the "maintenance healing", don't even get me started on the full-burst potential).

Yes, scholars are powerful. Yes, I don't mind playing with a skilled scholar. No, WHMs are not bad.

is this real life?

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Originally Posted by Tranquil

Why are you acting like the WHM is so inferior in everything?

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I really don't see why WHM could be on par with SCH right now. SCH, being born out of a DPS, is capable of BOTH DPS and Healing, that alone is already superior

SCH's damage relies on DoTs that allows them to both healing and dealing damage at the same time.

Pure heal-side, SCH has a healing bot that not only allows it to churn out Cure 2 at half the MP rate, they also churn out Cure 2 at half the enmity. In Raids, AoE heal is much less of a problem, the content is based around keeping the tank alive after all, so the incredibly awesome Lustrate is an absolute winner. 3x25% heal every single minute? Yes please. Not to mention you can stack it before engagement, additional usage.

In comparison, WHM only has a Benediction which has a 5 minutes cooldown. Divine Seal works for WHM, fairy's boost affects EVERYBODY's. In short, Divine Seal only improves Cure, fairy boost also improves Second Wind. SCH's Adlo/Succor will never be wasted, especially if Adlo crits. If a WHM crits, some of that might be wasted. WHM's 2 minutes MP regen means more risk if the healer dies and needs to regenerate MP, SCH's every-minute MP heal is much more lenient. What about Medica 2? Fairy's AoE heal gotcha covered.

Even better, while WHM only has Holy, SCH has Selene, which improves skill speed/cast speed every 1 minute, works even if SCH themselves are out of MP

No, WHMs are not bad. Yes, SCH is much better than WHM.

The advantage WHM has over SCH are Holy and Regen. Holy deals a lot of damage, Regen allows you to heal over time without supervision and can be cast whenever. Other than that, SCH laughs at the pitiful existence of WHM.

SCH and WHM overlaps far too much, to the point that SCH eats up WHM's job. This, coupled with the narrow vision of "keep the tank alive" mechanics, means WHM's superior AoE heal is, just about all the time, useless.

Speaking as a WHM.. who, before asked i HAVEN'T cleared all content. I do have a close friend who's a scholar, roughly same ilvl / progression point as myself.

We are very different kinds of healers: Scholar preparative, WHM reactive.
Yes, SCH has a bit more breathing room, has extra DoTs etc, but both roles have their use. Personally i love it when i get in instances with a scholar also. We complement one another well.

My only gripe is mana regeneration. BLM gets umbral ice, which is insane, SCH gets Aetherflows, which combined with Energy drain etc, is insane, we get.. urm.. shroud of saints.. gee.. thanks lmao.

But yes, I do believe WHM is a perfectly viable and capable role. We have a good toolkit to deal with most situations, and as with any tradesman, it's what he does with the tools, not the quality of the tools he has available over all.

Don't buff WHM. I'm bloody happy with it.

Uuggghhhh..... can we not talk about PVP in this subforum?

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Originally Posted by Raestloz

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You have a few good points but you are glorifying the SCH and not really thinking about the WHM's strengths to the end.

Like, what does Fey Illumination working for everybody and Divine Seal working for the WHM only have to do with the WHM being inferior to the SCH? In practice, the WHM is getting a 50% healing boost and the SCH is getting a 20% boost, if both are active. Divine Seal is super good and on a 1m CD. You can have 11 ticks of Divine Sealed Regen up per minute. That is, 33 seconds out of 60 seconds. (Dots and HoTs being on a 3s timer per tick, refreshing Regen at the end of DS). On top of the Cure 1'ing and Freecuring, this is some good maintenance healing.

Ignoring the use of Fey Illumination and assuming a WHM uses a few Cures during their Divine Seal used on cooldown, on top of maximizing their DS'd Regen uptimes, they're looking at about 620 potency of highly mana efficient healing without doing a single Cure 2 outside of Freecures. (With average Freeproc rates, and with the average Regen potency being 174.5 if 11/20 ticks are DS'd and 9/20 'normal', per minute). Scholars can maintenance heal at about 655-660 potency (Physick + Embrace). Yes, 655-660ish, not 700, because while Embrace is listed as 300 potency, it actually is in the 255-260 range. Assuming you Rouse on cooldown, that comes closer to 690 potency over time. Not a drastic difference in mana usage or potencies, considering the other excels in ST healing anyway.

Yes, I know Scholars have Lustrates, Adloquium and all the goods, but so does WHM have the on-demand healing. Whispering Dawn is good but it can be up 1/3 of the, not on demand all the time. Yes, a SCH's shields get wasted less than a WHM's heals even when overhealing happens, but guess what, a WHM has their godly 18% stoneskin, too, that they can cast instead of a healing spell.

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Originally Posted by Tranquil

You have a few good points but you are glorifying the SCH and not really thinking about the WHM's strengths to the end.

Like, what does Fey Illumination working for everybody and Divine Seal working for the WHM only have to do with the WHM being inferior to the SCH? In practice, the WHM is getting a 50% healing boost and the SCH is getting a 20% boost, if both are active. Divine Seal is super good and on a 1m CD. You can have 11 ticks of Divine Sealed Regen up per minute. That is, 33 seconds out of 60 seconds. (Dots and HoTs being on a 3s timer per tick, refreshing Regen at the end of DS). On top of the Cure 1'ing and Freecuring, this is some good maintenance healing.

Ignoring the use of Fey Illumination and assuming a WHM uses a few Cures during their Divine Seal used on cooldown, on top of maximizing their DS'd Regen uptimes, they're looking at about 620 potency of highly mana efficient healing without doing a single Cure 2 outside of Freecures. (With average Freeproc rates, and with the average Regen potency being 174.5 if 11/20 ticks are DS'd and 9/20 'normal', per minute). Scholars can maintenance heal at about 655-660 potency (Physick + Embrace). Yes, 655-660ish, not 700, because while Embrace is listed as 300 potency, it actually is in the 255-260 range. Assuming you Rouse on cooldown, that comes closer to 690 potency over time. Not a drastic difference in mana usage or potencies, considering the other excels in ST healing anyway.

Yes, I know Scholars have Lustrates, Adloquium and all the goods, but so does WHM have the on-demand healing. Whispering Dawn is good but it can be up 1/3 of the, not on demand all the time. Yes, a SCH's shields get wasted less than a WHM's heals even when overhealing happens, but guess what, a WHM has their godly 18% stoneskin, too, that they can cast instead of a healing spell.

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Because fairy boost means things like:
Second Wind
Additional Slotted Cure/Physick in BLM/PLD's skills
Arcanist Physick

Are all boosted, and is more useful to the party as a whole, even the other healer gets the effect, as you say.

I do not argue that Divine Sealed Regen plus Cure 1 is good, but so does boosted Physick + Embrace + Fairy Regen, and is objectively even better. When fairy boost is not active, Scholar can use Rouse to improve the healing of Fairy by itself.

You're also forgetting the fact that that SCH's 660 potency comes with only the cost of Physick's MP, while WHM's also comes at the cost of Regen's MP cost

The equivalent of Whispering Dawn for WHM is Medica II, which has been "nerfed" by reducing heal potency and increasing regen time. As much as I don't want to admit it, Medica II is pretty much only useful for TitEx and T2 Enrage, mainly because on-demand healing is usually about "keep us from dying, right NOW" in this regard, both AoE regens are useless, but while Medica II generates an incredible amount of enmity (which can cause current monsters to aggro the WHM), Dawn will direct the aggro to fairy. Medica II also comes at unnatural MP cost.

Every second you're not healing is a second wasted not healing. While it is true that Graniteskin grants 18% of max HP mitigation, it requires 3 seconds to cast. By comparison, Aldoquium requires only 2 seconds to cast.

If we assume that a target has 10000 HP (currently only available to Warriors), Graniteskin will grant the target with 1800 HP. That's the top line. Now, I'm not going to kid myself and provide exact numbers that are accurate about Adlo's potential, because I don't know the way cure potency mechanics work, but suffice to say that if Adloquium crits and heals for 600HP (the heal itself), the shield will be 1200 HP, which easily trumps Graniteskin, if only due to the more efficient MP cost and faster cast time.

And you simply don't crit for 600 in end-game, you'd crit for more, especially thanks to Warrior's 20% heal buff. If the Heal crit is 650, the shield will be 1300, for a total of 1950 HP.

I'm not going to lie to you, my Cure 2, with Divine Seal crits for 3.6-3.8k. By comparison, my Cure usually crits for about ~1500. Considering that Adlo's potency is 300, its crit will probably hover around ~1200, which will bring its effective potency to ~3800. Graniteskin has to cover a target with 20.000 HP just to scratch 3600 damage mitigation

Stoneskin is effective, it simply isn't efficient. When you take into account that Adlo's crit doubles its shield's strength (which is already the amount of heal to begin with), its potential busts through the roof. Stoneskin scales with target, Adlo scales with YOU. Stoneskin's advantage is the 30 minutes long up time, but mid-battle it's rarely useful, unless your alternatives are worse (such as when used by Paladin)

Sorry to give a fast reply to your long thought-out post, but I am in a hurry so I'll just tackle the things I noticed immediately:

Fair enough about skills such as Second Wind etc, but these are honestly very marginal in the grand scheme of the things.

I didn't really forget that Regen MP thing, but didn't really bring it up because of the slightly higher in-combat MP-regen of most WHMs (due to gearing preferences and MP-regen being 2% per tick in-combat, though this does not compensate for their overall worse sustainability, yes) and because they will be spending a GCD here and there doing a Freecure during which they regen some MP back. Yes, you are right it adds up, but not by a lot considering you only cast Regen 3 times a minute. Now, I do think WHMs in general have worse sustainability, but that's for another time.. (I said in my very first post of this thread that Piety scaling for SoS would be nice!)

I also agree that the current Medica II is in many ways inferior to the older one, but it still has its uses, even in the SCoB. Medica II is really fantastic in T6. It can be used in T7 too for a slight regen-effect on the MT while also healing some of the fireballed people (not optimal most of the time, but alright). In T9, a single Medica II is good enough for the Meteor Streams (with a manual Cure/Physick on the "double dipped person"), later supplemented by a Succor. Aggro isn't honestly an issue with most stuff post-2.1.

Also, Stoneskinning in combat is not "rarely useful", because there are many near-instagib mechanics in this game. A Stoneskin should be up for Ravensbeaks in T9, it should be up for the Bahamut's Claws to come. There are many situations where it works wonders in tandem with a SCH's Adloquium. Now, I won't argue that Adlo is more mana-efficient overall, but Stoneskin has plenty of uses.

Honestly, I am not going to argue about the SCH being better for ST healing, because that is what the SCH is. But just for that reason, the overall synergy of the party is hurt a lot if there is no WHM present, in most content.

[EDIT:

I had said some things, due to the forum's @#^&/* policy of only 1k chars per post, I had to cut some of the content (for later pasting through edit post). Unfortunately for some reason it looks like I merely deleted instead of cutting. I pressed Back in my browser but the true text is no longer around. I'll try to type them again when I feel like it. Definitely not now

SCH might have an edge in Coil, but when it comes to primals I am in near constant envy of my fellow WHM being able to top everyone off almost instantly with a well-placed Medica II. WHM AoE healing blows SCH so far out of the water it more than evens out the classes.

I think WHM find themselves in the same spot as BLMs vs. SMNs where AoE capability is downplayed in endgame content. The saving grace of WHMs though is that primals still deal lots of AoE damage meaning WHM isn't, and is not in danger of, becoming obsolete. The classes are balanced fine. I like having one of each, but if they were going to be stacked I prefer WHM/WHM with situational SCH/SCH pairing (Turn 1, for example). I think that is the definition of balance.

no, because in all the jobs in the game, sch and whm are the best balanced jobs, they complement their selfs u know, when u have a kickass whm and a kickass sch like me, pfffff, and c mon, theres content where u can use 2 whm or 2 sch or 1 sch or 1 whm, u just have to know how to use the job, its like warriors, people didnt knew how to play warrior and SE change it, so, i think whm/sch are well balanced

Nah lol i rather have SE keep whm different from sch as it already is. If we got buffed to sch level then we might aswell be called white scholar mage, WSM.
I prefer whm as i believe they have a potentially higher dps output than a sch if you were to pit them against dungeon level 50s mobs.
Also i think some schs are forgetting about our repose. Let's us cheat dungeons in a way.
* emnity sleep resetting

The only thing about pvp that i can say is that when it comes to sch the only advantage they have is being a split target. Too much new players, noobs, reckless ppl have a hard time trying to figure out " should i kill the fairie or the sch 1st ".
But when the ppl above see whm they go
" oh, only ( 1 ) healer let's burn them. "

Well two things will ultimately happen as the game matures. Either white mage gets left behind and scholars become the norm in most every engagement or you will start getting hatred from your free company associates for weakening the raid as a whole as a white mage. SOS piety scaling would be immensely helpful but they really should remove medica 1 from the game and strengthen cure 3 with a high potency single target cure and a larger yalm but maybe half potency cure for everyone else. Or maybe even give white mages a rebirth ability on a long timer they can buff a tank that automatically revives or acts as a hail mary instant heal for 50% health if the tank hits 0 hp.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Well two things will ultimately happen as the game matures. Either white mage gets left behind and scholars become the norm in most every engagement or you will start getting hatred from your free company associates for weakening the raid as a whole as a white mage. SOS piety scaling would be immensely helpful but they really should remove medica 1 from the game and strengthen cure 3 with a high potency single target cure and a larger yalm but maybe half potency cure for everyone else. Or maybe even give white mages a rebirth ability on a long timer they can buff a tank that automatically revives or acts as a hail mary instant heal for 50% health if the tank hits 0 hp.

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how do u come with this? that will never happen, because there are going to be hybrid jobs, new jobs and new skills, not necesary a buff over sch, and ofcourse, its a WHM, whm will never be left behind

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Originally Posted by Raestloz

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Just thought I'd chime in and give you the Adlo numbers. My Adlo cures for ~800, and ~900 on Warriors. My crits are normally between 1200-1400, but with Convalescence up (and possibly Fey Illumination) I crit somewhere between 1500-1900 (could probably be 2k+ crits if I made sure it was on a WAR, with Convalescence, Fey Illumination, and possibly a Monk's Mantra), and regular Adlo heals for ~1000-1200.

I play as both white mage and scholar, and I'd always rather have one of each in a raiding environment. White mages have big on demand heals, where scholars have more stable heals with utility. Have two white mages, and you'll have bursty heals but might run into mp issues with some content without a bard. Have two scholars, and you'll have tons of stability, which is great, though you may lack the burst healing needed for an unforeseen mistake. If you have a well coordinated party that makes few mistakes, you can probably get through most content pretty easily.

Having one of each will, of course, strike a balance in between. This is nice because of a scholar's healing throughput, especially when it comes to single target healing, but offset by the white mage's on demand cure bombs, which can patch up unmitigated spike damage, heal unplanned raid damage quickly, and plop divine seal regens under your adloquium crits to help keep the tank nice and healthy. While there's no real necessity to run one of each healer, they provide such a natural synergy that it seems silly to not pair them together whenever possible.

SCH is awesome, check out this thread http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-Dungeon-Solos
I'm not saying WHM should be able to do that also but SCH is a really powerful job.

Numbers and utility wise SCH is legitimately OP compared to a WHM just look at Pots post or check out the recent Turn 9 SCH solo heal, a feat that would be pretty difficult for a WHM without Bard's on standby. However the issue is a bit more nuanced than that. If we consider only healing throughput the WHM is king simply because their raw power with a couple skill presses = raid saved. A SCH has power but it's precision power, they have to properly weave in Succors and Adlo's to prevent damage from escalating beyond your control since your only good raid healing has a 1/3 uptime, when to properly debuff/mitigate and whether blowing their stacks is the right decision in a given situation relative to when Aetherflow comes off CD. Because of the much higher skill floor/ceiling required to play SCH at peak efficiency they are backed up with much greater numbers to prevent average and below-average SCH's from needlessly whipping raids.

Look at it from this angle; WHM gets buffed with a consistent form of MP sustain on par with SCH. This wouldn't make the class more intricate or fairer it would simply drop the skill ceiling even further while providing a massive power spike that would make WHM's faceroll content. While on the other end, if they nerfed SCH's numbers it wouldn't just reduce power it would also raise the skill floor since the decision-making required to play the class decently remains untouched. This the problem with binary 'ease-of-use' kits like WHM's, they either gimp their power or are forced to introduce limiters (MP limitations/ long CD's) to gate it. The only way they can legitimately buff WHM's (at least sustain wise) is by introducing some form of class gimmick that controls their power spikes, think Greased Lightning, Umbral/Astral, Aetherflow, Wrath, etc.

Weird, when scholar just came out people were saying scholar sucks, it's the other way round now?

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Originally Posted by wizzed

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That's because people were playing SCH like WHM instead of as a preemptive mitigator. Its only now, with all the kinks worked out, that people realize that mitigation is more useful in endgame vs straight recovery. One has to simply look at the old PLD vs WAR threads pre-2.1 to see how important mitigation is in FFXIV.

I'm not saying WHM is useless, it does function to some extent (if only as a 1-trick pony), but no one can deny that SCH brings so much more utility to the party on top of being able to heal, thus making SCH a much more valuable resource without the MP constraints and enmity issues of WHM. The problem with WHM (other than being a 1-trick pony) is that it suffers much of the same problem BLM is facing. It has a singular niche (AoE) when 99% of endgame requires ST healing. On top of that it is a turret class and can only be effective when not having to run around, a problem that BLM is also currently suffering from in endgame.

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Originally Posted by wizzed

Weird, when scholar just came out people were saying scholar sucks, it's the other way round now?

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Only stupid people.

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Originally Posted by Velox

That's because people were playing SCH like WHM instead of as a preemptive mitigator. Its only now, with all the kinks worked out, that people realize that mitigation is more useful in endgame vs straight recovery.

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Originally Posted by Bigpurpleharness

Only stupid people.

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Inaccurate generalizations.

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Originally Posted by wizzed

Weird, when scholar just came out people were saying scholar sucks, it's the other way round now?

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Huge portion of the issue was pet control UI was lacking (eos being the SCH's best source of aoe healing), and the scars of pre 2.1 titan HM putting extra emphasis on the need for AOE healing (pre echo: Fight went on longer. More tumults. More AOE healing was needed, which punished SCHs who only had succor since it was a poor/ineffecient tool to recover from damage already dealt. SCHs first succor mitigated ~400 damage from the first tumult per person. Recovering after that was a 400ish heal for the same MP cost as medica, but half as powerful), plus Medica 2's HOT was twice as powerful which made SCH aoe healing look like total crap in comparison. Considering back then titan was the wall in the way of getting into coil, that was a big deal.

With all of the above was addressed, and fights with intense need of consistent AOE healing are not as frequently attempted by the masses (what few that are done by pugs are subject to echo) WHM aoe healing power isn't as necessary anymore, and SCH single target healing potential through adloquium crits, lustrate (not even sure why they buffed this by 5% while I was away, but w/e), and a more intuitive pet UI allowed SCHs to shine.

In case you don't know the pet UI issue back then, the short version was after commanding your fairy to use embrace, you constantly needed to stop the fairy from automatically using other more important cooldowns as soon as she was able. Needless to say, it made timing the fairy's tools a little unreliable outside of spamming embrace.

I think every class should have + and - when we play them.

They shouldn't be all equal. We can't also forget that it's all about player skills and not
class disadvantage. White mages can solo some dungeons too, even on HM.

White mages have.. Divine seal (30% healing boost), Benediction (instant 100% recovery), presence of mind (50% casting boost at will), Holy (AoE spell with stun, 220 potency with cleric stance. 2nd powerful AoE in the game next to flare).

However, WHMs have to face with those two problems: MP and Enmity. While it's true that MP is not that big issue once we get our pie gear, it's hard to deal with enmity due to powerful single healing abilities. Unlike Scholars, we put extra pressure on a tanker. We either need another enmity reduction spell/skill or make shroud of saints scale with our natural mp regeneration by --%.

To say that white mages posess more emergancy/wipe abilities then scholars is a flawed notion. Lustrate x6 a scholar can possibly line up to heal up half a raid in seconds along with rouse/fey from a fairy which will churn out 1200 point heals per cast is more then enough to clean up a mess. If its worse then that then there would be no help to be had for a wipe coming anyway.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

To say that white mages posess more emergancy/wipe abilities then scholars is a flawed notion.

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Didn't think people still believed that. Anyone with sense who seen lustrate since 2.0 should prefer that over benediction.

Have you ever considered maybe your WHM players just suck? Personally, I prefer to have one of each since scholars have a hard time healing when more than 2 people are in the red, especially since it takes them 3+casts to heal what a WHM can do in just 1.

SCH is great in many cases as long as they are keeping galvanize up, but when things start getting really ugly, I start wishing there was a WHM instead.

People need to understand this. SCH is for powerful single target heals and damage mitigation with small aoe heals. WHM is a powerful raid healer with large aoe heals and small damage mitigation (Stoneskin for example).

SCH/WHM is usually the best combo but on certain fights the SCH/SCH combo is very effective (Take Turn 7 for example, not a lot of aoe damage. With one healer + 2 pets are enough for most of the damage in the fight, allowing the other healer to put out some serious dps). On other fights we'll find that WHM/WHM is more effective. It depends on the fight but the point is the game is balanced for WHM/SCH party combo.

I have soloed nearly all of the end game content on both SCH and WHM, albeit I did this with a great tank so emnity wasnt really an issue.

Honestly, I found soloing on SCH easier simply due to mana regen, and the fact if I had to run I could keep the heals going with lustrates and Eos/Selene.

But a stationary WHM with a BRD is devastating when it comes to healing, I didnt need to consta-cast as I did with SCH and AOE healing was a doddle, however I think WHM should have regen on a separate CD, it is unfair a WHM has to use a GCD to do what a fey does, and either boost refresh or reduce shroud CD. I would also suggest a quelling strikes or similar for WHM something to prevent emnity as oppose to dumping it, and buff PoM.

On SCH it was pretty easy, on issues where when a group people took unnecessary big hits.

I would say if you are doing new content, WHM is better because you can deal with those oh shit moments on a large scale e.g AWOL cleaving mob etc, but once people are comfortable with the content running double SCH is normally better due to Selene buff, and we can usually DPS without affecting our heals.

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Originally Posted by Raestloz

Medica II is pretty much only useful for TitEx and T2 Enrage, mainly because on-demand healing is usually about "keep us from dying, right NOW"

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Hate hearing things like this. I disagree that WHM is necessarily broken, but the skill cap on WHM is probably far higher than SCH given that enmity and mana management are a larger part of their gameplay. WHM's biggest strength is in its regens, not its direct heals.

A large part of the synergy between WHM/SCH exists where regen effects stack with galvanize effects to minimize the need for burst healing, freeing up resources for anything and everything else. I don't think 2xSCH is in any way better than WHM/SCH even on farm content; I think it's a horrible comp... but when you have SCH that will use WD in occasions where many WHM are apprehensive to use regens... you have SCH playing a WHM role better than many WHM.

Simply put... It's all about player skills, and party members. Any good healers who joined bad party will look like a noob.

WHM do not need a buff, SE just need to create boss fight that can dish out Single and Multiple target AOE damage.

Just like why BLM is underpowered, you have the skill set to deal with a specific content (AOE) BUT you do not have a content to use the skill with. Most of the boss battle focuses on a SINGLE boss or adds that cannot be stacked together for AOE.

In conclusion, it is the mechanism of the Boss battle not the skill of the class. Diversity of classes is very important, without diversity, you are just playing the same class with diff name.

To be honest, nothing needs to change.

You are all assuming everything goes as planned. On the theoretical side it might seem as such, but on the other side its not. Variables come into play, and that is when you see the point of WHM over SCH.

Lets try a party of lower than cap, new players enter, mostly under-geared, subpar skills.
Where a WHM would go into autopilot a sch needs to dish out more.

There is an argue to be made for mana against WHM but only that I am afraid.

Even in top end dungeons/raids, not all knows what they are doing. And there are always simple variables such as human nature, sleepiness,the usual lag that even if you have the skills, they can be constricting.

WHM can dish out more heals and are there for the "O SH!%' moments.

SCH are preventatives that can lower final damage against target, if they can 'see' it.

As an end game healer who has cleared turns 5 & 9 while the content was still fresh, I can say that neither is better than the other. It all comes down to player/party skill & knowledge.

WHM is traditionally more reactive to damage due to its big potency heals nature and most WHM's don't tend to pay attention to detail or plan like a SCH. SCH is forced to in order to play well. However, a WHM that knows the encounter and plans ahead (ie precasting medica 2 to hit as soon as the first meteor stream lands on turn 9) is just as able as a SCH to solo content. They have big ST and AOE heals. With correct use of SoS + not mindlessly spamming medica 2, and precise timings, they are very strong, versatile healers. Many WHM's do silly things like recast medica 2 while there is still 15 seconds left on the regen over the party and the party is at 80% health. That's needless overhealing, enmity generation, and mana wasting. If no big AOE damage is about to come, let the regen heal everyone up.

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Originally Posted by gti443

Hate hearing things like this. I disagree that WHM is necessarily broken, but the skill cap on WHM is probably far higher than SCH given that enmity and mana management are a larger part of their gameplay. WHM's biggest strength is in its regens, not its direct heals.

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I really don't think anyone ever said WHM is "broken". WHM functions just fine, SCH simply can outperform it. Surprisingly, WHM's biggest strength is actually the Direct Heals. It's the reason Cure 3 exists, and Benediction. WHM bursts out direct heals very well, it's just that SCH's potential bursts through the roof thanks to Adlo

I've been watching the numbers very closely on my combat tracker and I constantly get out healed by less geared SCH in T6 and T7. Eos can't be blighted, can't be petrified and never has to move, combine that with shorter recast times and split healing ability and really I end up with low healing stats and a large percentage of overhealing. In those two fights I'm getting out healed ~650-750 HPS for me and 750-850HPS for the scholar. There are undoubtedly section of this fight where I shine, but others where I fall off significantly.
T6 - The Good
-Medica II after spit
-Can regen Main tank and honeyed target before blighted and have it tick during blighted
-Medica II in phase 3 after adds are down, regen main tank, pop cleric stance for a few seconds to DPS, rinse repeat
T6 - The bad
-Can't doo much if too many people get low breaking tethers before spit
-Get stuned using LoS method, where a SCH still has EoS healing, WHM have nothing
-Very little party DMG outside of spit, SCH outsines us on single target due to their faster cast times.
T7 - The good
-Can finally use Medica II in phase 3 to help mitigate party dmg.
-Medica I or Medica II after cursed shriek/lots of people get fireballed
T7 - The bad
-During phase 2 when adds are up can't use many if any regens and no medica II or adds rape you
-Out of range of both tanks when cursed shriek is on you, SCH still has Eos

All in all T6/7 utilize SCH toolkit much better and in many cases it is punishing for a WHM to use their AoE heals. I do however concede that WHM excelled at Garuda/Titan/Ifrit EX but that's not really the pinnacle of endgame raid content. getting easily out healed by a SCH (not including their dmg mitigation) is just depressing.

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Originally Posted by SecsyMancat

the sch out-heals me in 2 very specific examples

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1. So then, are you going to enter next week as dual SCHs?
-If so, what difficulties do you think you'll face as 2x SCH, and is it worth overcoming these challenges vs. slightly lower heals from a WHM/SCH split?
-If not, then why?

2. Are people alive/do they stay alive in your current Setup?

3. Why do you feel as though you MUST out heal/heal the same amount as the other healer on all content to be equal? Why can't they be 'better' at this, and you better at Titan EX?

4. Are you working harder, than the sch/taking far more risks more often? (on all content)