Why are there no skill trees?

OK, I get that the game has a very simple formula based on sets of 4 players, a tank, a healer and 2 DPS. The skills of each class are chosen to enhance each class (and job) within their overall role. Great.

However, there is really no flexibility in this system for the player. Similarly the way you enhance your character beyond the simply level growth has virtually no impact on your character, the only thing that does is gearing. Even then you are limited by the role you play in the trinity of classes.

Almost every JRPG (yes, I know, this is an MMORPG, but it's also a FF game which is a series that is JRPG to the core) I've ever played brought with it some kind of skill system that let me choose my path through the skills. You could choose skills from other trees, but with out the intrinsic class bonuses many of those skills were simply not nearly as potent as they could otherwise be. Those skill systems typically include passive skills to boost attributes like strength, Dexterity or Intelligence as well. By using their allocation of skill points players have the option to make the character their own within the boundaries of the system Many western RPGs and MMOs have skill systems like this also.

Since FFXIV is already in place along with the skills 'system' that is has, there's no chance of a sea-change in the skills of the classes - I understand that.

However I was thinking about this and wondered whether there is an opportunity to use the traits to enhance existing skills, and allow players to spend 'trait points' or whatever on these additional traits so that they can customize their character further.

For example, I play a Paladin, if there were traits that boosted the effectiveness of my healing, or allowed me to raise in battle, or boost my ATK or DEF, boost my VIT or HO directly, or increase parry and dodging rates or block strength. I could choose between making a tank with more healing ability, one that contributes more to DPS, one that is even more of a defensive tank able to withstand more damage, or a Paladin that lives up to the billing of creating a dance with shield and blade to deflect and avoid damage while keeping the enemy attention.

A system such as this would not damage the roles that we play, but they would enhance the individuality within the jobs and roles. Personally I think players enjoy making their character their own, and we all have out personal style of play. At the moment though, the FFXIV skill abilities and traits lack the flexibility to allow individuality. Which is a crying shame.

Problem is those systems are hard to balance and almost never make everyone happy.

They always have a thin veneer of "Play how you want!" attached but we all know they end up with a game that has one very specific spec per encounter and the min/maxers will rage on anyone who doesn't use it.

It adds depth but rarely affords more freedom of customization.

Because customization is extremely hard to balance. Sure, if you have one person using a mix/max efficiency build, it's not a big deal right? But what if you have a full party using one? The party is suddenly a whole lot more efficient than party that's not using any optimal builds. Then which one do you balance the encounters based on? If you use the min/max end, you'll get a well balanced fight for them but for everyone else the fight might be impossible. If you go for the other end, you make the game too easy for the people who actually know how to build an efficient customization.

That's the problem with all customization options in every game possible. Either it has to be very, very negligible or cosmetic, and in both cases it's completely irrelevant at that point. Or you could just have a completely unbalanced game, that's fun too.

Now different skill trees to do the same things with different abilities are a valid point. But I think we're getting those in terms of different classes and jobs. Please look forward to it.

Have fun paying extra for a skill reset because nobody wants you for going the lousier spec.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

That's the problem with all customization options in every game possible. Either it has to be very, very negligible or cosmetic, and in both cases it's completely irrelevant at that point. Or you could just have a completely unbalanced game, that's fun too.

Now different skill trees to do the same things with different abilities are a valid point. But I think we're getting those in terms of different classes and jobs. Please look forward to it.

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I understand about balance, although I think the problem can be overcome, not within the existing trinity set up, but I think it can be overcome.

Even within the skill trees by class, I'm not sure how different they are, the last time they were balancing jobs/classes, the primary changes to warrior were to make it more paladin like. In the end it feels somewhat homogenized to me.

I'd like to think jobs are essentially skill trees. Arcanist is a good example, you can spec to INT or MND to play SCH or SMN. We'll see how new jobs branch from old classes go to improve this

Maybe if we can buy specific skills at the guilds with guildmarks again.
Of course at level 50 everyone with the same classs would have the same skills again because they bought every skill available.

Crossclass skills are also like skill tree. But we need more crossclass skills again. Maybe not all skills as crossclass skills like it was at the beginning from 1.0 (except the ones the players bought in the guilds), but more than we have now.

All I want is Subjobs + PvE action points.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

For example, I play a Paladin, if there were traits that boosted the effectiveness of my healing, or allowed me to raise in battle, or boost my ATK or DEF, boost my VIT or HO directly, or increase parry and dodging rates or block strength. I could choose between making a tank with more healing ability, one that contributes more to DPS, one that is even more of a defensive tank able to withstand more damage, or a Paladin that lives up to the billing of creating a dance with shield and blade to deflect and avoid damage while keeping the enemy attention.

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I would like it if the attribute points you earn while levelling could be put into secondary stats and not your primary since it makes no sense not to put it into your main throughput stat or vitality.

I wish cross job skills would get fixed. Some jobs have nice cross skills but some have a poor choice and when it is good it's severely neutered. Cure on pally springs to mind.

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Originally Posted by JatohCynn

Problem is those systems are hard to balance and almost never make everyone happy.

They always have a thin veneer of "Play how you want!" attached but we all know they end up with a game that has one very specific spec per encounter and the min/maxers will rage on anyone who doesn't use it.

It adds depth but rarely affords more freedom of customization.

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Indeed that's why Blizzard decided to go down the path they did. Hybrid builds were either complete junk or in some rare cases they were very overpowered. Most people went with the theorycrafted best spec.

The only game that offers that (from what I know) is Rift. Each calling (class) has nine souls (trees) and you pick three to make your build. Putting points into a specific role tree increases your effectiveness in that role. If you want a damage build pick three damage trees and you'll get the full benefit. Put your points into a tank tree and get survivability etc. Some people don't like it but I do. If you want to be good at single target damage then put the all the points you can in a single target soul if you want an AoE soul then place most points in that. If you want a hybrid then you have neither a best single target or AoE build. To balance it they have had to neuter lower branches of the tree though.

illusion of choice doesn't mean there is actually choice there.

Because skill trees are a relic from the 90s and introduce needless complexity for very little gain.

Jobs are skill trees. Blizzard learned that people only choose the "best" set according to various fansites anyway(or they were completely unable to do content)

If you ask for "skill tree", you'll get emotional answers (as proved by nearly everything above my post). It's better to generalise and ask for "customisation" and play on the fan-service chord because customisation if obviously a strong aspect in many previous FF. It's hard to ask for something with well-pondered reasons, it's better to use something easy as fan-service.

Since the devs of ARR, who are already playing much with fan-service to sell their game, decided to not work much on customisation even though it could be a strong fan-service aspect, I don't think we should expect much from them. It's not something that can be added quickly/easily.
Of course, customisation is (should be...) a foundation of a RPG, but depth in a game is hard to sell (as proved by previous posts with answers like "I can't think by myself and build my own char so I'll just have to read guides to be accepted."). A 5-stars chat room like ARR is good enough.

I've always hated the concept of skill trees. I can understand it in content such as PvP but not PvE. It's limiting plain and simple, and in the end there's almost always a one true build. I would rather be able to earn (Yeah, earn and not have stuff handed to me) abilities and use them in different situations.

Because as is more commonly shown on these forums and any other games forums in the current generation of new gamers the majority are too stupid to know how to do things on their own. Give them too many tools and all they do is complain about how complicated everything is.

I too like a lot of upfront complexity for absolutely zero actual gains. ftw.

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Originally Posted by Nana_Balthazar

Of course, customisation is (should be...) a foundation of a RPG, but depth in a game is hard to sell (as proved by previous posts with answers like "I can't think by myself and build my own char so I'll just have to read guides to be accepted.").

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Customization in an RPG is only valid in 2 scenarios: when it's a single player game (such that it doesn't matter that you can make 1 character stronger than the others since you're controlling all of them) or when all of the customization options are explicitly balanced against one another (which is effectively impossible without having an extremely limited number of options; you can only test so much).

In games that use skill trees, they do not offer real customization; they offer the illusion of choice (or, more appropriately, the choice between optimal performance and homogeneity or sub-optimal performance and uniqueness which, in a game where you're playing with others and are expected to be able to carry your own weight, the decision to be sub-optimal isn't viable). As someone pointed out earlier, the only value that skill trees (or any level of "in-depth" customization) add is in the amusement the theorycrafters derive in the first couple of weeks before they've hit upon the most effective build.

Skill trees do not provide "depth". They offer a small period of time where experimentation occurs before the optimal decisions are explicitly laid out. From that point on, unless you're an independent theorycrafter, if you don't read the guides, you're basically shooting yourself in the foot. I've run with people that refuse to read guides and don't do anything to figure out how to optimize their choices; they end up being pariahs because they can't compete or function in a group (and, in some cases, they end up incapable of actually finishing the game because the devs are forced to build around the optimal builds because, without doing so, the optimal builds just steamroll through everything).

ARR made a pretty daring choice that I actually think was the right one: they recognized that skill trees are an inefficient expenditure of developer resources (creating a crapton of options and then making sure they're balanced against one another) so they got rid of them. They basically gave everyone the same "optimal spec" that they would have been using anyways, which freed them up to focus on other more important things (like content, of which there is a crapton compared to other MMOs of similar lifespan, especially horizontal content).

You can say you want customization all you want, but it basically translates into one of two "real" statements: you want to *feel* like there's customization even when there isn't or you want to be different than everyone else and you're willing to make yourself less effective to do so. Neither of those is something the devs should really encourage.

I don't blame them for eschewing the whole illusion of choice that a skill tree presents. People will figure out the optimal build within a week or so and anyone not speccing that out will be ridiculed, called a gimp and told to "learn to play" or "GTFO out my my group." This is as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow and people making racist comments on Youtube videos, there is no room in MMO endgame for special snowflakes anymore.