Elder Seedseers and the Padjal

I’m not quite sure if there’s really a straight answer to this or if this topic will be simply speculation, but I figured I’d stop lurking around and ask since I don’t think these specific things are going to be answered in the near future, and since the next patch’s supposed “focus” is on the sylphs/Ramuh rather than Gridania itself:

So we know how the Admiral and Flame General attained their positions; the Admiral is chosen by whoever wins the Trident, and the Flame General managed to become one of the wealthiest people in Ul’dah, giving him a seat on the Syndicate. But there isn’t much we know about the Elder Seedseer, as far as I know…we get very little mention of how Kan-E took the position, all it says in her short description is

“After becoming a Sister of the Twelveswood, it was not long before she had risen to Elder Seedseer and left Gridania to live in the forest with her siblings, where she served the city-state by communing with the elementals…”

But how exactly does one “rise” to the position? Is it just based on how well a person can communicate with the Elementals? Did the previous one die or retire? Was she elected by the Council, or just really awesome at what she did that they promoted her? And, hypothetically, could a non-Padjal Hearer become an Elder Seedseer? I’m not sure if they ever really specify that you have to be a Padjal to become one. (though maybe Padjal are just recommended to the position since their skills are too great to be compared to normal Hyur/Elezen?)

There were obviously Elder Seedseers before Kan-E, since the guy who served Lady Amandine mentioned the “Elder Seedseer before the last”. So if the process of becoming Elder Seedseer is by election, for example, how often do they choose an Elder Seedseer? How long ago was Kan-E’s rise to power, anyways? It doesn’t really say when she actually sprouted horns and became a Padjal, we just assume based on the description that it’s at a young age…but even then, she obviously would have aged, because she looks older than the others of her race we know…I mean, how old is she?!

Silliness aside, that’d bring me to the next question. For a while I thought I remembered someone (maybe an npc in 1.0) or some reading on lore saying that Padjal were supposedly “immortal”—but I don’t think that’s entirely true, seeing as A-Towa-Cant was said to have been killed in the U’Ghamaro Mines. If anyone happens to know what I’m thinking of/getting it confused with that’d be awesome, since there’s a big possibility I’m mixing it up with the “eternal youth” thing. If they do have normal lifespans, though, is it to be assumed that they live as long as a normal Hyur?

There’re probably other Gridanian political questions I have but I can’t remember them…so I’ll leave that as it is before I ask even sillier questions. :P

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Originally Posted by Fleurette

But how exactly does one “rise” to the position?

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The short answer to your question is that Kan-E-Senna is the oldest of the three living padjal of the Senna family, who are themselves the three members of the Seedseer Council who lead Gridania's government. The long answer would explain why the Senna are the leaders of the government and how Seedseers differ from other Padjal, but I'm a bit fuzzy on those details and I'd have to get back to you.

I don't think the Padjal are immortal, either. They're blessed with long lives and retain their youth throughout, but I'm pretty sure their time still comes, and will come just as early for them as anyone else if it involves an axe in the face.

I'm afraid I'm just as clueless as Moose is in that regard - there's no information exactly as to how Gridania's government is chosen, although I'm inclined to believe that the CNJ's Guild probably has some connection to it (Kan-E-Senna's backstory after all mentions when she became a padjal she entered Stillglade Fane for training at a very early age), so it's likely the Seedseer Council is elected by the CNJ's Guild. That's just my speculation though - until a certain ahriman confirms or deny this take my ramblings with a grain of salt! :p

Also on your last point about the padjal and immortality, it's clear they're not literally immortal - they're just 'ageless' in that when they're chosen by the elementals to become a padjal, they're basically sealed in childhood and no longer age. So although they may no longer age, they definitely can still die, but through accident or disease (in fact, 1.0 actually clearly stated the padjal as being 'ageless', not 'immortal').

After all, Tam Tara Deepcroft contains tombs that have padjal names, and A-Towa-Cant perished when he ran afoul of the kobolds within O'Ghomarro during his pilgrimage around Eorzea. So yeah, they definitely can die, they just don't die of old age.

The matter is not completely clear, but we have some clues. From those, we can draw a few assumptions.

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Originally Posted by Fernehalwes

There are several old Hyur families in Gridania which consistently (albeit rarely) produce Padjals.
When a baby is born to one of these families, he or she is given a "normal" Hyur name, as is the custom (i.e. Bryce Senna).
When it is learned that the child is a Padjal, they are given a new first name based off the ancient Padjali tongue, and accepted into Stillglade Fane for their indoctrination.

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To properly understand why this is significant, one must first understand the significance of the Elementals to Gridanian Society.

Gridanians believe that Nophica, their Matron deity, made the Twelveswood (aka The Black Shroud) as a place for the Elementals. It is theirs, and only by the Elementals' grace that people may also live there. The Elementals are the keepers of White Magic and it is also thought that when a hyur child becomes a Padjal, it is because they have been touched by the Elementals. Essentially, chosen by them to lead their peoples - and it is thus no coincidence that they become far more apt at communicating with the Elementals than even the most astute Hearer.

This is why Gridanians look to the Padjal for Leadership of their Nation as the Elemental's chosen representatives among them. Gridania is a kind of theocracy in this regard.

As for why Kann-E-Senna is Elder Seedseer and why some Padjal are not seedseers? This is less clear.
For starters, I'm making an assumption that only padjal will ever become seedseers, because the seedseer council is Gridania's de-facto Government and Padjal are seen as natural leaders for reasons already articulated. As for it's membership among the seedseers, I'm envisaging a kind of peerage system.

Given there are so few Padjal, we can assume they all know each other on a first-name basis and are very familiar with each others' talents and strengths. Chances are Kann-E was asked to be Elder Seedseer by the collective for her mature insights and temperate attitude, while Raya-O and A-Ruhn were asked to join her on the basis that they work well as a team. And if E-Sumi's preference is to be a teacher and mentor, and O-App prefers to research the unknown, they are not about to get in the way of matters of Governance. (I'm taking a lot of liberty with the padjal boys there. Their roles seem to have greatly changed since before the Battle of Silvertear Skies.)

On the subject of immortality, I think the word previously used by the game was "ageless" - they simply stop aging and will live on in the body of a young adolescent until such time as life is forcibly taken from them, or they seek out their own weary end.

Thank you for clearing some of that up! I appreciate it. :D

As for the "eternal youth" point, I figured it was something like how you all described, but for some reason the word "immortal" popped into my head once and I thought there was something weird about it when we learned more about A-Towa.

...Speaking of the "ancient Padjali tongue", would you guys happen to know if there's a compilation of the language that's available as a sort of reference aside from the blurb Ferne gave us a little while back? Or is there still too little to go off of at this point?

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Originally Posted by Fleurette

Or is there still too little to go off of at this point?

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Pretty much. We are limited to the currently-known names of padjal, locations like Toto-Rak and the enemies of Tam-Tara.

With any luck, we will learn more about the Padjal when the game further explores the history of Gelmorra, a Black Shroud civilization that appears to have been at its height (or should I say, its depths - it was built underground) during the earlier parts of the 6th Astral Era.

But hey, I guess that means you can use your imagination for now. ;)

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Originally Posted by Fleurette

...Speaking of the "ancient Padjali tongue", would you guys happen to know if there's a compilation of the language that's available as a sort of reference aside from the blurb Ferne gave us a little while back? Or is there still too little to go off of at this point?

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Still too little to go off of, though we know it uses the real-life Ainu language as a base.

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Originally Posted by Catapult

With any luck, we will learn more about the Padjal when the game further explores the history of Gelmorra, a Black Shroud civilization that appears to have been at its height (or should I say, its depths - it was built underground) during the earlier parts of the 6th Astral Era.

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I really want to know more about Gelmorra, and I know others who do as well. Heck, I'd like to know more about Amdapor and Nym, too, even though they've both had dungeons at this point and we have a pretty good idea of what destroyed each of them (which is to say: Eorzea's War of the Magi ended disastrously and I'd love a comprehensive history of it, especially how Belah'dia was affected by that whole mess).

would be nice if we could roll a Padjal...

Even if we were to disregard the relative rarity of padjal, it would take a tremendous amount of suspension of disbelief to imagine one of their members as a blood-soaked marauder revelling in the mass slaughter of his enemies.

So, no, I don't look forward to the padjal becoming a playable race. It wouldn't fit the lore as we know it. Unless someone can come with a plausible explanation for why that particular padjal didn't choose to be a seedseer, as is his or her usual destiny.

Normally, I like to humor all sorts of crazy possibilities (and I come up with a lot of them, so please don't see this as me trying to be harsh) but rolling a padjal is an irreconcilable paradox, as far as I can see. Padjal are chosen to be mediators between the elementals and the people of Gridania. The elementals are not going to choose someone who's going to be an adventurer, leave the wood, not be a full-time conjurer, learn other skills, and generally not even spend close to half of their resources being a mediator between the elementals and the people of Gridania; it defeats the purpose choosing people who aren't best for the job - a padjal isn't what you are, it's the entirety of who you are. Also, you can't make children in the character creator, never mind special chosen children, so even just there the idea's probably out. Like I said in the Padjal thread, they say never say never, but I'm sayin' never.

Putting aside issues of character age meeting various countries' game classification standards for a moment...

Lore-wise, the only way padjal could be playable would be if they introduced a significant plot-point to make it possible. One where hyur children began turning into padjal left right and centre under some sort of elemental revolution.

...you know, you could build an expansion pack around that.