Limit Break Question.

Hi all,
Just have what I hope is a quick question about limit breaks. I'll start by saying that I am new to this game.

I'm currently leveling as THM and used the LB on the last boss in Toto-Rak. A couple of the other players informed me after (politely, but without reason) that when there is a melee dps and a caster dps, the melee should always use LB. They did let me know that apparently this causes rage mode among some players.

I was wondering a couple of things:

Is this true?

Why?

A quick search told me that Caster is AOE and Melee is single target, which would only mean the number of enemies effects who should cast it. It also said that the damage dealt is based off of the total parties weapon damage, not the individual. That suggests only that the weakest damager should cast it to maximize party dps...

Thanks for any advice.

Its because of the Potency of the Limit Break as well (which affects the damage the same way as normal attacks, but uses the parties damage rather than the individuals damage)

Caster: 1400/3000/5400 (AoE)

Melee: 2300/5000/9000

So when an LB is used (especially on a boss), the Melee LB will do a lot more damage than the Caster's LB would.

Caster LB is a aoe attack which is less damage then a melee LB attack.

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Originally Posted by ForteXX

Its because of the Potency of the Limit Break as well (which affects the damage the same way as normal attacks, but uses the parties damage rather than the individuals damage)

Caster: 1400/3000/5400 (AoE)

Melee: 2300/5000/9000

So when an LB is used (especially on a boss), the Melee LB will do a lot more damage than the Caster's LB would.

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Thanks for the response!
A question though, are there many times when a AOE LB is useful? Any last boss fights? I really only started using it because if its not communicated, it doesn't seem to get used in lower level dungeons. Then you do use it, and hear something like what I posted. Plus using it makes me smile a little each time...

The only one I can think of currently is Ifrit Hard. Due to it having multiple nails during that fight, you want a Caster to do an LB on as many of them as they can.

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Originally Posted by ForteXX

The only one I can think of currently is Ifrit Hard. Due to it having multiple nails during that fight, you want a Caster to do an LB on as many of them as they can.

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Well damn, that sucks. Haven't gotten near that level yet, so I don't know. Guess the nails spawn multiple at once, so you just fit as many in the AOE as possible?

To bad the LBs are so of balance, because they are fun to watch.

Yeah, there are six nails I believe in Ifrit HM. In the lower-level dungeons it really shouldn't matter a whole lot as to who LBs. But, as others have stated, a melee DPS using a LB on a single boss is preferred, especially at higher levels. I like BLM/ARC for Haukke Manor, where you can group the three adds with the boss, and use the AOE LB.

Garuda HM is another example of a time when Caster LB can be useful.

Also note that if there are no melee in the party Caster LB is still better than teank or Healer LBs (and Bards get healer) so you're second in line.

Thanks for the replies guys! good to know!

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Originally Posted by ForteXX

The only one I can think of currently is Ifrit Hard. Due to it having multiple nails during that fight, you want a Caster to do an LB on as many of them as they can.

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there is alos Levi EX when you want to destroy the second set of orbs"this is optional, but is commonly used"
T5 when LB all snakes.
you can always use it if you are the only dps with a damaging LB in the party.
They did mention that they will implement new changes to LB in the future so the use of LB might change.

There are a few instances where caster lb is preferred like in Garuda HM against both sisters and Garuda. I can't think of any times where it's absolutely required but there are fights where the caster lb is the one expected to be used because of the fight mechanics. For example, Titan extreme, the lb is generally saved for the caster to use on the adds. Again not absolutely necessary but it makes the fight a lot easier.
The fights are designed to utilize certain types of limit breaks in some fights more then others. Another example is the only time a tank lb is the favored one is in ultima where the bombs will wipe everyone unless the tank uses lb to have the party survive the explosions.
The times will come but it's all 50+ content. Pre-50 dungeons just use your best judgment, if there are adds in a boss fight and no one is lbing, go for it

Generally speaking, yes, melee DPS has limit break priority, followed by caster DPS if there's no melee DPS, simply to deal damage and get bosses done faster.

Otherwise, limit breaks are chosen for situational value - Healer's limit break in 8-mans is used to save the party if things have gone horribly wrong (100% HP/MP recovery and revive on the entire party at rank 3). Tank's limit break is used in very specific fights for very specific reasons (Dealing with a mechanic during Ultima's Bane). Caster LB is a clearing ability. There are fights where it's useful, both before and after 50. As mentioned, Haukke Manor (L28 dungeon)'s final boss has a part where she summons three adds at once - it's the hardest point during that fight. most of the uses of it though are for hard or extreme 8-man primals, where multi-target burst damage is extremely valuable.

I didn't know the difference between caster and melee LB either. Thanks for that info guys.
Every time someone has said to use LB, I've always done it regardless of who was in the party. A lot of people usually say, "mage lb" so I've gotten into a habit of doing it myself when they ask for the LB to be used. I'll remember to check party roles next time :)

Caster Limit break is also usually used in Aurum Vale against the second set of Morbol Pods during the Miser's Mistress boss. It deals damage to the boss, but also takes out all the adds, which basically have to be killed before they hatch.

They can be killed with standard AoEs, but some parties will just prefer to use the caster LB since it means the other DPS can still focus on the boss (especially if they're melee DPS.)

Leviathan EX is a great example of a fight where the caster LB is preferred over melee, especially if you have level 3 because positioned right you can not only hit spumes, but you hit leviathan and his tail, so you do double damage to the boss which is usually more then the single target could have pulled off and the added benefit of killing those glowing balls of awfulnessness. Unfortunately this also can cause phase skipping, but then again so can over gearing for any of the primal fights :3

Also would say to pay attention to the timing. If you know the damage potential of limit break and when to use it and a melee for instance is not casting it, then i would say go on ahead and use it
Ifrit Hm for sure is more of a must to have blm lb the nail phase, as 3 bars can wipe all of them or close to it and melee lb would be well, pointless.
I do hope in future updates that we get better use for caster lb, perhaps even with the "buff" we are to be getting

Is there anything in game that explains limit breaks? If not it really needs to be added. Having to explain them inside sunken temple to pugs is frustrating.

totorak boss is graffias the spider?

totally fine for a caster to lb if the adds are spawned or the tail is active

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

Thanks for the response!
A question though, are there many times when a AOE LB is useful? Any last boss fights? I really only started using it because if its not communicated, it doesn't seem to get used in lower level dungeons. Then you do use it, and hear something like what I posted. Plus using it makes me smile a little each time...

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- Haukke Manor: to get rid of the Handmaidens asap (this can save you quite some chaos)
- Aurum Vale: in the final bossfight to kill the morbol pods before they spawn.
- Wanderers Palace: to kill the adds on the slime fight. Not really needed anymore due to people being overpowered though.
- Ifrit HM: LB3 to kill all the nails
- Garuda HM: using the LB on the 2nd or 3rd set of adds is a valid choice, although these days people seem to prefer melee LB on Garuda.
- Titan EX: to kill the adds asap
- Leviathan EX: LB3 on the second set of bubbles (aimed dead center to hit them all)
- Binding Coil Turn 5: to kill the snakes before cracking down on Asclepius
- And anytime there are no melee dps in the group and you need a damage LB

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Originally Posted by Maero

Ifrit Hm for sure is more of a must to have blm lb the nail phase, as 3 bars can wipe all of them or close to it and melee lb would be well, pointless.

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This is, and always has been, very possible without a caster.
All dps (and healers if possible) must focus down one nail at a time, then LB the last.
Depending on how far your gauge was charged at the start of the phase you can LB the first, focus the second and third, and LB the last one, as the nails charge the gauge quite a bit.

But caster LB is definitely easier:cool:
Also, why no SMN love? I can AoE LB too!

Since the topic is LBs, I thought I'd also mention something that's generally a none-the-wiser mistake, and that's waiting to use an LB till the very end, when the maximum damage of the LB is wasted on a smidgen of health, and when there's no more DPS to mooch from a mini-boss or boss to get as much bar back as possible.

Others here have pointed to particular situations where LBs are crucial to use, but outside of those moments the general rule of thumb should be sooner rather than later. Especially on the first and second mini-bosses of a dungeon.

The bottom line is that the sooner someone uses an LB, the sooner the bar fills back up and it can be used again. With this as your starting point, you should then look at crucial moments, or the most useful moments. A party with mage only DPS and therein AOE only LBs would be best to use the LB sooner, but also when adds are spawned once the tank has collected them, or when a boss has a secondary part that needs dealing with, like the scorpion's tail in Toto-rak (to give a low-level example).

Over and over again you'll see people waiting until a boss is at next to no health before using the LB. This is a total and utter waste of DPS, especially when used by melee DPS.

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Originally Posted by Maero

Ifrit Hm for sure is more of a must to have blm lb the nail phase, as 3 bars can wipe all of them or close to it and melee lb would be well, pointless.

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Uhm no. Even back before people outgeared Ifrit HM, it was never required to have a BLM/SMN LB the nails. People just find it easier/less prone to error and made up the requirements just like the "omg no PLD tanks, rage quit". Melee can LB3 one nail, killing it, while the other DPS take down 2 getting the LB back to 2 bars, LB the last nail while the other DPS take it down.

Umm why?
One blm lb and done
Face the facts, blm for Ifrit hm nail phase is prefered, not needed but prefered
why spend more time then needed?
Melee lb is best suited for SINGLE targets
Perhaps you still do the method you mention above, but sorta silly

The point he's making is that it's merely nice, not required to have.

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Originally Posted by Maero

Face the facts, blm for Ifrit hm nail phase is prefered, not needed but prefered

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Preferred is different from must.

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Originally Posted by Maero

why spend more time then needed?

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So people don't join DF on it and quit cause there is no caster LB? I don't do Ifrit HM nowadays since I have all relic unless I'm bored and see a random PF needs help or my FC needs help but while it's true that Melee LB is best suited for single target doesn't disprove its usefulness in Ifrit HM's nail situation. Just like with a good party, you can use caster LB on Ifrit EX and blow up half the room worth of small nails and still be fine. Or never mage LB the spumes/adds in Leviathan/Titan EX at all, DPS down the spumes/adds normally and LB3 Leviathan/Titan.
The point is there are more than one way a LB can help a party.

well i have seen people quit because of it while is was Bard, so yes.
I understand your point and perhaps i should of worded it as prefered instead.
Personally when i know members just start their relic quest i bring in my blm for that reason alone.
blm's lb is useful for only certain situations sadly which is a bummer, so have to take them when we can
Sad that Se never gave much thought in having more aoe lb situations, rather then always melee

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Originally Posted by Maero

Sad that Se never gave much thought in having more aoe lb situations, rather then always melee

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There are plenty of situations where AOE LB is better than melee or comparable. Examples:
_ Ifrit HM nail like you mentioned. Ifrit EX nails if the party knows what they're doing. You can't say having an AOE LB dropping on multiple nails killing them instantly is not better than melee LB killing a single nail in the middle.
_ Garuda HM/EX both have usage for AOE LB when Garuda and both Sisters will take damage from it. The key to it is timing. I can drop a Meteor damaging Garuda and bring both sisters low on Garuda EX without touching the Spiny. You can't argue that is not better than Melee LB Garuda.
_ Titan HM sure doesn't have any but to this date, many people still LB the second group of adds on Titan EX even though the only drawback is the blinding effect.
_ Leviathan EX's second set of spumes. Most slow/inexperienced DPS parties rely on the AOE LB dead center to bring the 4 spumes down low so they have more time to dodge without worrying about them.
_ Moogle EX: instead of killing all moogles and LB the king, you can AOE LB the moogles that are close together, kill the others and burn the king down.
_ Coil turn 4: you can hit both dreadnaughts and the spinner rook if you aim it at the right time or 2 sets of knights/soldiers and spiders depending on how you're doing it.
_ Coil turn 5: AOE LB the snakes is undeniably the most common way LB is used in that phase.
_ Coil turn 6: You can AOE LB the slugs when they come out, burn boss and with enough DPS, boss would be dead before Honey blows up.
_ Coil turn 8: You can AOE LB the 5th set of tower dreadnaught and the boss. The dreadnaught have 30k HP so a LB won't kill it.
Melee LB3 has potency of 9000 while AOE LB3 has potency of 5400 so any time you hit 2 targets, you're already doing more damage. It just happens that 5400 potency does more damage than most non-boss target's HP so the overdamage is wasted resulting in needing more targets to do the same effective damage. There are plenty of opportunities to use AOE LB, unlike tank or healer LB, which if you need it, you're most likely wiping. Now go complain about that.

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Originally Posted by subteraneanbird

I've also cleared every single one of those without the caster LB and down a person so whatever.

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I never said it's impossible without AOE LB. It's just cases where AOE LB can be useful.

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Originally Posted by Lemon8or

Titan HM sure doesn't have any but to this date, many people still LB the second group of adds on Titan EX even though the only drawback is the blinding effect.

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Interesting, every group I've been with up to now has always LBed the first set of adds (with LB2) and then a second LB(1) for the second set of adds.

LB3 would probably kill them instantly, but I'm used to LBing them before the landslide... so the blinding effect could be devastating. Still. Interesting.

I've seen people quit Ifrit HM because of no caster.

I've also cleared every single one of those without the caster LB and down a person so whatever.

Another newbie question as a follow up - what's the difference between the multiple bars for the LB? I noticed there are anywhere between one and three bars that get filled up to the yellow color.

If you have 2 or 3 melee DPS in your Ifrit HM party, you can easily kill all the nails without using any LB. There's more time than most people think. Unfortunately most people see nails and that basic human instinct kicks in with "have to kill ASAP" which prevents them from utilizing the full duration of the phase.

They get more powerful, for starters. Caster also gets increased radius, and healer raises the party with 3 bars. Also, how many bars you get depends on what you're fighting and party size as I recall.

If I'm not mistaking,
1 bar for light parties, 2 in (final) boss fights.
2 bars for full parties, 3 in (final) boss fights.

Like Urthdigger mentioned, power and radius increases (I believe someone at the start of the thread posted the exact numbers). And the healer LB3 instantly raises everyone and heals to full hp/tp (but you will still have weakness).