Thaumaturge's Role in Battle and the Game World

It doesn't make much sense to me to give the conjurer the high-level resurrect spells, since it is the thaumaturges, not the conjurers, who are seeking a means to bridge the gap between life and death. This new change to the battle/class system doesn't seem to fit well within the established mythos.

I mean, in this game world, the secrets of life and death are still unknown. Raise spells should be difficult to access, and really only accessible through the thaumaturge's guild at high ranks, as part of the guild story line.

What irks me aren't the changes themselves, but the incongruities they cause in the story.

Look at it from a different point of view. Traditional Raise spells are all light based magic, and THM is very opposite of that.
THM still gets it's own raise, but in terms of lore, it is different than raise, because it is more sacrificial, which is much more like THM.

Now, you should look at "death" in ffxiv as "K.O". Even the DEV team uses that term instead. K.O isn't absolute death, but instead the line between both, and is still subject to resurrection.

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Originally Posted by SydeBeheln

Look at it from a different point of view. Traditional Raise spells are all light based magic, and THM is very opposite of that.

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Not true. Thaumaturge can be both light and dark. The Thaumaturges in Milvaneth Sacrarium, Ul'dah all embrace life and worship Nald the "Imbuer of Life".

When a god's subtitle is "Imbuer of Life", seems a little odd that his priests don't have access to the most powerful raising spells, no?

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Originally Posted by SydeBeheln

Look at it from a different point of view. Traditional Raise spells are all light based magic, and THM is very opposite of that.
THM still gets it's own raise, but in terms of lore, it is different than raise, because it is more sacrificial, which is much more like THM.

Now, you should look at "death" in ffxiv as "K.O". Even the DEV team uses that term instead. K.O isn't absolute death, but instead the line between both, and is still subject to resurrection.

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Are you a mule or are you a newb? It doesn't matter, its just having done the all the THM class quests I got a very different feeling from the lore than you did. Especially the astral THM at the other temple on the opposite side of Uldah. I didn't want to be rude though and automatically treat you like someone who didn't level up thm since lots of people link to mules.

Um...no. Because regardless of context the main healing job of FF is the White Mage, not the thaumaturge. So much that when you see thaumaturge at other FFXI games (like FFXI) they're actually black mages.

THM are assassins...THM learning about life is like military learning anatomy...its just to be able to be more effective when killing people...just because military know anatomy doesn't mean they are medics.

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Originally Posted by Lienn

Um...no. Because regardless of context the main healing job of FF is the White Mage, not the thaumaturge. So much that when you see thaumaturge at other FFXI games (like FFXI) they're actually black mages.

THM are assassins...THM learning about life is like military learning anatomy...its just to be able to be more effective when killing people...just because military know anatomy doesn't mean they are medics.

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This isn't Final Fantasy XI, and I don't think your post makes a whole lot of sense. The military analogy doesn't work for me. THM are not assassins, they're mystics. Traditional class designs are irrelevant here, because FFXIV has its own unique and versatile classes that don't need to be put on the Procrustean bed of FFXI's job system. Don't put THM into a box. Hell, we don't even know what their new role in combat is going to be.

I'm tired of hearing people say things like "regardless of context" or "regardless of story," just to focus on the game play. Game play mechanics are important, surely, but FORM IS CONTENT, and the battle system, the form, should draw the content, the story and mythology, into sharper focus. The THM should act in battle as he acts in guild quests, i.e. as a mystic with special knowledge of the hereafter. He should have resurrect, not some tree-hugging CON :P

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Originally Posted by SydeBeheln

Look at it from a different point of view. Traditional Raise spells are all light based magic, and THM is very opposite of that.
THM still gets it's own raise, but in terms of lore, it is different than raise, because it is more sacrificial, which is much more like THM.

Now, you should look at "death" in ffxiv as "K.O". Even the DEV team uses that term instead. K.O isn't absolute death, but instead the line between both, and is still subject to resurrection.

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Your preconceived notions about classes and spells are causing you to put FFXIV into a box. Who says resurrect needs to be a "light" spell? Why can't it be dark and forbidden and unnatural? And, while we're at it, who says THM is a dark class? He has access to both umbral and astral spells. He can go both ways, or either way, or neither way. That's the fun of the armory system.

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Originally Posted by Lienn

THM are assassins...THM learning about life is like military learning anatomy...its just to be able to be more effective when killing people...just because military know anatomy doesn't mean they are medics.

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Um ... I guess all my medic friends in the Army are just assassins under deep cover. Boy they'll get a kick out of that! :p

Anyway, back on topic.

No. Not all Thaumaturges are assassins. They can do assassinations. Some actually do assassinations. But so do Marauders and Pugilists. Like several of us have already mentioned, the Thaumaturges of Nald (The Imbuer Of Life) in the Temple of Nald at Milvaneth Sacrarium embrace life. They are priests of life who worship a god of life.

You don't have to take my word for it. Log in. Go to Ul'dah. Talk to the Thaumaturges in the Temple of Nald. They'll tell you themselves.

I think we're overlooking a huge point here: the word "thaumaturge" means wonder-worker.

Game, set, match.

Im not into FF lore so cant tell if it matches or not. From my point of view it could be both things you guys said, maybe at the same time each with its pros and cons. God of life should have control over life as god of death should have control over dead etc. Anyway I always wondered why the hardest defenders (even with arguments to the point of absurd) of a class boost/improvement is the same people that play that class. Feels cheese.

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Originally Posted by Cidolphus

I think we're overlooking a huge point here: the word "thaumaturge" means wonder-worker.

Game, set, match.

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With all due respect, we can't use localization names to justify anything. So the Class name means "miracle-worker" in English. It means "curse-user" in Japanese. That just negated you last point.

Look to the lore inside the game. All the evidence is right there in the Temple of Nald at Milvaneth Sacrarium.

Well, i hope you guys don't mind me checking some ranks of yours...it was strictly to prevent spoilers.

So seeing you guys that assume THM are not assassins didn't do some of the key quests regarding it, i'll just suggest you to complete some of Ul'dah main scenario and class quests...what i said will make much more sense after you do ^^:

However, it is known that when a white mage take place, he will rule the healling role...just as much as black mage will rule the elemental damage role. So at the moment they decide CON will unlock color mage jobs it is expected for it to receive the most powerful spell regarding it.

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Originally Posted by Lienn

THM are assassins...THM learning about life is like military learning anatomy...its just to be able to be more effective when killing people...just because military know anatomy doesn't mean they are medics.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

No. Not all Thaumaturges are assassins. They can do assassinations. Some actually do assassinations. But so do Marauders and Pugilists. Like several of us have already mentioned, the Thaumaturges of Nald (The Imbuer Of Life) in the Temple of Nald at Milvaneth Sacrarium embrace life. They are priests of life who worship a god of life.

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Originally Posted by Lienn

So seeing you guys that assume THM are not assassins didn't do some of the key quests regarding it, i'll just suggest you to complete some of Ul'dah main scenario and class quests...what i said will make much more sense after you do ^^:

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I understood what you said, and I made no assumptions. I'm not disputing that some Thaumaturges do perform something akin to assassination (i.e. vengeance order). But as I pointed out, there are other Thaumaturges in-game that don't do that.

What I am disputing is the generalization that was made (i.e. THM are assassins), and then the use of that generalization to prove the point the Thaumaturges couldn't possibly be White Mages.

Right now, the closest thing in-game to a "White Mage Guild" is the Temple of Nald at Milvaneth Sacrarium ... which is run by Thaumaturges.

Ya, i see your point. But the thing is that, once you see it as a whole they are like Mafia (like those that charge for "protection"), not like a religious group. Just because they stay in a temple (which is also a dark sect if you check Nald'Thal description. "Nald'thal is the overseer of transactions and the underworld, and god of commerce. He commands the element of Fire and is associated with the tenth moon of the Eorzean calendar. Nald'thal is the single manifestation of the deific twins Nald and Thal. He is most often depicted as a discerning merchant holding a balance. His symbol is the cowry, an ancient shell currency."). I believe that CON is more like it, since its all about balance and harmony between conjurers and the elements.

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Sinette: They are called the twins, Nald and Thal. Or at times, the Traders. All of reality is governed by their two aspects, and they hold a ceaseless vigil to ensure order is maintained. Long ago, our city itself was split into two great sections, to mirror this truth. As a great teacher of mine once said, microcosm recapitulates macrocosm. We have since merged, and prospered for it. Perhaps the gods will someday mirror us.

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Nald'Thal is actually two separate deities. Nald is the life god. Thal is the death god. What is sometimes hard to grasp is a concept that both Life and Death can be described in a single word ... or a single manifestation. We don't have such a word in our modern earth-based mythos. But in Eorzea, that word ... that manifestation is called Nald'Thal.

One of the reason it's hard for us to wrap our heads around this is because we're very used to the forces of Life and the Death constantly fighting each other in our modern mythos. They form sides and you have to be on one side or the other.

In Eorzea, they don't fight each other. On the contrary, they are two brothers that cooperate with each other in harmony to maintain the balance of life and death. I guess the closest earth representation of this would be Yin-Yang ... two separate forces described as a single manifestation.

Life and Death in Eorzea is the same. The only difference is that the word that describes it is not Yin-Yang, but Nald'Thal.

There isn't too much reason Conjurer shouldn't have rezzes, but there is very very very little reason Thaumaturge shouldn't have higher level rezzes as well.

As mentioned again and again in this thread. They're patron god is the the god of Life AND Death. C'moooooon.