Any ideas for what the MND stat represents?

It's just an idle thought, but it may be fun just to dwell on it a little bit more.

Most of the the attributes in FFXIV are fairly self-explanatory. STR represents physical power, DEX represents agility, INT stands for intellectual prowess, and so on. PIE, I suppose measures the degree to which your character is attuned to either the divine or the Lifestream. Hence, the higher it is, the higher the level of aether/MP you possess.

What then does MND represent? Is it meant to be the equivalent of D&D's Wisdom stat, itself a poorly defined attribute? Given that MND is the primary attribute of healers, my guess would be that it represents your character's "emotional quotient" or, to put it another way, it measures your character's empathy. Hence, the stronger your degree of empathy, the better your ability to sense and heal wounds.

What do you think?

As you say, the physical stats are pretty straight forward in a lore capacity.

Vitality - Life (HP and Defense)
Strength - The ability to hit hard (Physical DPS)
Dexterity - Deftness of the hand (Ranged Skill)

The magickal arts are a bit more fuzzy, but meld some reality into the mythology. How often does a simple effort to know and yet believe become oversimplified into a conflict between science and religion - between information and faith - between Intelligence and Mind? In this case, the intelligence is of forbidden knowledge; the ability to destroy beyond one's usual means. On the other hand, faith (the mind beyond the known) is often an essence of hope, healing, and assistance - a wish for better things. How strong you are in your convictions, how pious you are in your informational or faithful righteousness, might determine your strength utilizing said forces in a fantasy setting. In Final Fantasy, that's simply a mana pool.

That's some stupendous reading comprehension there, Ruinedredmage. In any case, I assumed MND represented some sort of attunement with nature/ aether based on my limited experience with the conjurer class quests. It is a bit more nebulous from a lore standpoint and a likely reason that several games combine this game's INT and MND stats.

Well, remembering how it was sort-of described in FFXI, 'mind' appears to be basically belief in a higher power (in FFXI's case - the goddess Altana), all 'holy' type spells, along with cure magic, used MND as it's guiding stat, and hence the elvaan (FFXI's equivalent of elezen), where stated as being very devout (in fact they were the most religious race) - no surprises they had the highest native MND stat of the five races and hence made excellent healers.

On the other hand, intelligence was basically exactly what it says on the tin, not so much a belief in the supernatural (ala, a god's divine providence), but rather material knowledge and curiosity - naturally because the elvaan were regarded as being very arrogant, pigheaded and 'closed minded', their intellect naturally was low - this also explained why the elvaan city of San d'Oria was a backward, medieval castle with a stagnating, decadent society.

Compared to the elvaan, the tarutaru (FFXI's equivalent to lalafell), having the highest INT stat in the game, were literally stated as being the most intelligent of the five races. They're a naturally curious race, and were the original discoverers of magic. Despite this, much of the taru's home nation of Windurst wasn't just given over to study of the occult, but science in general and even limited technology, like astronomy and bioengineering (for instance, they created bio-luminescent 'fluroflora' which was used as a form of lighting in Windurst).

Hence, I'm pretty sure the two stats lore wise have similar ideas here in FFXIV as well, although given the fact racial stat differences in FFXIV are less pronounced as they are in FFXI, it naturally doesn't seem to extend into Eorzean society in general as well.

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Originally Posted by Nutz

In any case, I assumed MND represented some sort of attunement with nature/ aether based on my limited experience with the conjurer class quests.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Well, remembering how it was sort-of described in FFXI, 'mind' appears to be basically belief in a higher power (in FFXI's case - the goddess Altana), all 'holy' type spells, along with cure magic, used MND as it's guiding stat

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The reason I suggested "empathy" as the variable measured by the MND statistic is that FFXIV's implementation of the scholar job — and its associated spells — kind of throws a spanner into those conventional interpretations of the attribute.

The Nymian scholar and his spiritual successor, the Limsan arcanist, are currently the only two jobs/classes other than the conjurer/white mage with inherent healing abilities. But unlike the conjurer or white mage, scholars and arcanists function more like medical doctors. This is reflected in the "flavour" of their spells, with names like Physick and Leeches, suggesting the application of scientific method to healing.

So, in that sense, while it isn't categorically wrong to imagine MND as a measurement of your character's religious belief, I don't immediately see how that interpretation relates to the scholars and arcanists' strengths as scientific doctors, rather than divine healers represented by conjurers and white mages.

Moreover, given that religious belief in FFXIV is far more widespread and diffuse than it was in FFXI, I rather think that PIE is a better representation of your character's devotion to the Twelve. Or the Lifestream. Or whatever metaphysical force there is in Eorzea that grants individuals command over aether.

Of course, I'm not suggesting that my interpretation is necessarily better. Just some food for thought for those who are inclined to think about such things. :)

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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

The Nymian scholar and his spiritual successor, the Limsan arcanist, are currently the only two jobs/classes other than the conjurer/white mage with inherent healing abilities. But unlike the conjurer or white mage, scholars and arcanists function more like medical doctors. This is reflected in the "flavour" of their spells, with names like Physick and Leeches, suggesting the application of scientific method to healing.

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From the Scholar's perspective, I've viewed the 'mind' stat as something that measures clarity and focus. Where to destroy only the knowledge how is needed - I can blow stuff up, so here goes! For restoration, it seems more an application of focus and a lack of distraction. Mind as Empathy I like, but I think when it comes to the most relevant thing for the casting of magic, I think clarity of mind is a better way to view it.

I like to think Mind is the same as the more "traditional" Wisdom stat; serves a very similar purpose in terms of combat (increasing the potency of healing magics), though Wisdom also increases the divine caster's offensive magics as well...

I've always thought of mind as your mental strength. I find it simple enough so I believe that it's just how strong your actual mind itself is. MND = Willpower if you want to put it that way

Ever since FFXI, I thought of MND as a kind of 'practical Wisdom'/phronesis (φρόνησις) - what Aristotle would describe as, "involv[ing] not only the ability to decide how to achieve a certain end, but also the ability to reflect upon and determine good ends consistent with the aim of living well overall." It's a capacity that comes through experience (Elvaan always appeared more experienced and insightful of their neighbours and enemies than the childlike and naive/Yagudo-appeasing Taru Taru, or indeed even the apathetic Humes) to "coordinate understanding, judgement and insight to result in effective action."

From my perspective, MND represents mindfulness.

Though, it should be noted, that Tarutaru are anything but naïve and Elvaan are anything but insightful or even experienced.

I think it can probably be thought of as a "warmer" kind of knowledge than Intelligence. It is the intelligent black mage that knows the child's dad likely perished in the fire. It is the mindful white mage who knows telling the kid that will not help. Intelligence is cold logic, while mind is more hunches and personal experience. A black mage can tell you how a mage channels the aether through their bodies and focuses them into desired effects, while a white mage is more concerned with applying the end result. It is theory versus practice.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

I like to think Mind is the same as the more "traditional" Wisdom stat

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Originally Posted by Valerathon

Ever since FFXI, I thought of MND as a kind of 'practical Wisdom'/phronesis

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The D&D version of "Wisdom" is very similar to what Enkidoh said about FFXI's "Mind" stat -- it's a measurement of religious faith and "insight". Hence the attribute's association with clerics and priests. And being an atheist, I find that slightly off-putting, the idea that you must have a religion to be "wise". :rolleyes:

From a role-playing perspective, I also find it hard to imagine how someone could be "wise" without being at least reasonably "intelligent". I mean, the only persona that comes to mind (pun intended) is... Forrest Gump. :p

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

I think it can probably be thought of as a "warmer" kind of knowledge than Intelligence.

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Yup, that's how I like to think of the stat, too, a measurement of "emotional intelligence" or empathy.

I like the other ideas, too, such as clarity/focus or "mindfulness".

Here's a bonus:
What kind of mental thinking would a SCH/WHM go through if they went into the cleric stance? Since obviously their mind and intelligence get's swapped.
Does the religious white mage all of a sudden decides this world is better off burned in divine wrath? (Or the non-believer be stoned?(pun))
Does the SCH realize it's better to demoralize the enemy with diseases and plagues?
If cleric stance was more of a pre-determined trait than a skill... you'd think that our healers have a bipolar disorder.

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Originally Posted by Nayto

What kind of mental thinking would a SCH/WHM go through if they went into the cleric stance?

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Well, to use my interpretation of MND, it would mean that the scholar or white mage is temporarily suppressing his natural instinct to care for someone else's well-being, and instead become a cold, calculating machine bent on inflicting maximum destruction.

Or, from the religious perspective, it would mean having the scholar or white mage being temporarily overwhelmed by a desire to bring about holy retribution. As you can see, such a concept would work better for a white mage (and even then, only barely, as FFXIV's white mage functions more like a "neutral alignment" druid than like a holy priest in FFXI). It wouldn't work so well for the more rational, scientific scholar.

Mind equal wisdom, and understanding of all things. Basically, person can feel the life flow though "mind" and body. Thus, they can sense life energy and also restore it :) intelligence would be, probably.. A knowledge... Unlike mind, it comes from experience. So, Int = power from studying. Mind = power from meditation.. >.>

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Originally Posted by Nayto

Here's a bonus: What kind of mental thinking would a SCH/WHM go through if they went into the cleric stance?

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I think the answer is in the name if you assume that the name is itself a nod to high fantasy (D&D Style) cleric classes, which are oft based on holy military orders such as the Knights Templar. I'd say what's going through the mind of a healer in Cleric Stance is that in their current scenario, the best defense is a good offense.