(DEV) Raise, are you sure?

I am a little concerned about the 5 min. recast rate of raise, and raise 2, and I guess what would be raise 3(Rebirth).

If a single party, let's say 4 player, are completely wiped with the exception of the CON it would take 15 min. to raise all 3 of them 0.o.

Of course having both raise, and raise 2 at your disposal cuts that time down to 5 minutes, but CON can only do that after level 38. I'm sure party oriented content before level 38 will be quite common(especially with raids), and we haven't even considered the amount of time with full 8 man parties.

I don't know, just to me it sound's a little worrying.

so how do you raise at the moment before lvl 38 at all?

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Originally Posted by Saiph

so how do you raise at the moment before lvl 38 at all?

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The new post on the lodestone. They released information on the spells such as raise, raise2, rebirth etc.

sry maybe it wasnt obvious but i mean it this was:

you cant raise at all before lvl 38 at the moment

in 1.18 you will be able to raise at lvl 14!!!
and at lvl 38 you will have a sceond raise

yes 5 minutes may be a bit harsh bu it think its ok for the fact you can raise already at so early lvls
and since anyone can equip (i think anyone can or maybe not?) raise so when many people die you
should be able to raise them all fast enough.

And, quite possibly, Raise can be AOE'd.
Can't it?
If so, the timer is a counter-measure to suicide zergs.

Okay, so maybe you didn't get the point of the post, "it's obviously speaking about post 1.18..."

Yes that's the other side of the discussion. I can see multiple members in the groups being required to have raise, or resurrect in their action bars because of situations like I mentioned. However, what if the situation I mentioned arose?
That still leaves 15 min. just to raise 3 other people.

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Originally Posted by Rinsui

And, quite possibly, Raise can be AOE'd.
Can't it?
If so, the timer is a counter-measure to suicide zergs.

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That's a good assumption. I thought I read spells removing the toggles between AoE, and singular though. I guess with unknown it's very possible raise could be transformed into an AoE, we will have to see.

I think what you're see is the beginning of trying to make classes useful. This change makes conjurer useful where it wasn't as useful before under the bland cross class between thm and conj all the way until 50. It may not sound useful until we use the dungeons and test them out. BUT now retards won't just assume "omg lemme return" when they have mages like "CASTING RAISE" and they just didn't pay attention. Now i will B+TCH if someone does that cause there's an mp cost , i'll be like "Hey nice broken gear ass! ^^"

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Originally Posted by SydeBeheln

Okay, so maybe you didn't get the point of the post, "it's obviously speaking about post 1.18..."

Yes that's the other side of the discussion. I can see multiple members in the groups being required to have raise, or resurrect in their action bars because of situations like I mentioned. However, what if the situation I mentioned arose?
That still leaves 15 min. just to raise 3 other people.

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In the case you're describing and since the spell is easily accessed now, it's more than likely all the players within your party will have it. You suggested that an entire party would be K.O., except for one member. If that were to happen, that one player would raise another member, who would then be able to use their raise spell while the previous person's spell is now cooling down. The chain would just continue until all member were back up once more.

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Originally Posted by zaviermhigo

I think what you're see is the beginning of trying to make classes useful. This change makes conjurer useful where it wasn't as useful before under the bland cross class between thm and conj all the way until 50. It may not sound useful until we use the dungeons and test them out. BUT now retards won't just assume "omg lemme return" when they have mages like "CASTING RAISE" and they just didn't pay attention. Now i will B+TCH if someone does that cause there's an mp cost , i'll be like "Hey nice broken gear ass! ^^"

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For sure, you can clearly see the definite roll healers like CON will have. Which is the most important thing to be honest.
I'm still curious with this change though, if CON will continue to use elemental spells. If so, what party spec job will they use, WHM, or BLM? It points towards WHM because of the definitive healing based spells, but the elemental spells are signature to BLM. Sooooo yea. =/ hah

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Originally Posted by Xandre

In the case you're describing and since the spell is easily accessed now, it's more than likely all the players within your party will have it. You suggested that an entire party would be K.O., except for one member. If that were to happen, that one player would raise another member, who would then be able to use their raise spell while the previous person's spell is now cooling down. The chain would just continue until all member were back up once more.

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Yeah, my example is just a narrow minded situation. But, what I am really getting at, are the exact reasons as to why (A.) Raise is low-level cross-class-able action. And, (B.) is a 5 minute cool-down.

We can clearly see why the dev. team chose those two semi weird restrictions. Which for me, makes me happy, because I can tell the dev team is really thinking out this whole cross class mess, and making it solid.

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Originally Posted by SydeBeheln

Okay, so maybe you didn't get the point of the post, "it's obviously speaking about post 1.18..."

Yes that's the other side of the discussion. I can see multiple members in the groups being required to have raise, or resurrect in their action bars because of situations like I mentioned. However, what if the situation I mentioned arose?
That still leaves 15 min. just to raise 3 other people.

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sry maybe you still didnt understand it or you just ignore the fact that, you cant raise at all befor lvl 38 at the moment!
so would you prefer a raise at 38+ every 60 seconds? or
would you prefer a raise at lvl 14+ every 300 seconds + when you hit lvl 38 (where the old cooldown of raise was way better) you get a second raise with a cooldown of 150 seconds.

so lets make a math excluding cast time of the spells for raising people at lvl 38+
old raise: 0seconds 1 raise, 60 seconds 2 raise, 120 seconds 3 raise 180 seconds 4 raise, 240 seconds 5 raise
new raise: 0seconds 2 raise, 150 seconds 3 raise, 300seconds 5 raise

so its actually not that much diffrence and depends on how many people got wiped out.

Also i hope that raise timers are not shared or it would rly take long to raise people.

The conjurer could always use chainspell before casting raise, though it only means they could get an extra player up.

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Originally Posted by Saiph

sry maybe you still didnt understand it or you just ignore the fact that, you cant raise at all befor lvl 38 at the moment!
so would you prefer a raise at 38+ every 60 seconds? or
would you prefer a raise at lvl 14+ every 300 seconds + when you hit lvl 38 (where the old cooldown of raise was way better) you get a second raise with a cooldown of 150 seconds.

so lets make a math excluding cast time of the spells for raising people at lvl 38+
old raise: 0seconds 1 raise, 60 seconds 2 raise, 120 seconds 3 raise 180 seconds 4 raise, 240 seconds 5 raise
new raise: 0seconds 2 raise, 150 seconds 3 raise, 300seconds 5 raise

so its actually not that much diffrence and depends on how many people got wiped out.

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I'm ignoring it because I'm not talking about "at the moment"! I'm talking about what will be, not what is, or what will have been, because that doesn't matter. So there for, it doesn't matter what I prefer, it's discussing what we will have.

As Thaumaturge, we are the scholars seeking the understanding of death, and walk the fine line between life and death with our magics. Are we losing this understanding to Conjurer with the raise/resserection/rebirth changes?

Is it just me, or does it appear we are getting the short end of the stick? Is the only change in this area that THM raise goes from 1 min recast to 5? While the CON gets 3 or so variation?

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Originally Posted by SydeBeheln

I am a little concerned about the 5 min. recast rate of raise, and raise 2, and I guess what would be raise 3(Rebirth).

If a single party, let's say 4 player, are completely wiped with the exception of the CON it would take 15 min. to raise all 3 of them 0.o.

Of course having both raise, and raise 2 at your disposal cuts that time down to 5 minutes, but CON can only do that after level 38. I'm sure party oriented content before level 38 will be quite common(especially with raids), and we haven't even considered the amount of time with full 8 man parties.

I don't know, just to me it sound's a little worrying.

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Here's your solution but it's a well kept MMO secret handed down from generation to generation:

Don't die.

Simple as that. Do your best to not die and this won't be a problem. Sure shit happens and sometimes the party wipes, well guess you'll just have to be better next time right? That's the point of the dungeon timers, to reward people who play well and don't die.

Don't you FFXI scrubs love challenging content? Wouldn't the fact that not being able to quickly raise the dead over and over add to the incentive to not die? Scrubs will be scrubs I guess.

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Originally Posted by zaviermhigo

I think what you're see is the beginning of trying to make classes useful. This change makes conjurer useful where it wasn't as useful before under the bland cross class between thm and conj all the way until 50. It may not sound useful until we use the dungeons and test them out. BUT now retards won't just assume "omg lemme return" when they have mages like "CASTING RAISE" and they just didn't pay attention. Now i will B+TCH if someone does that cause there's an mp cost , i'll be like "Hey nice broken gear ass! ^^"

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this is what is so sad... it really seems as if that was their way of making con "useful" but still not fun *sigh*
if they don't have some really good surprises about the job system and job changes in the future, one can't help them...

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Originally Posted by SydeBeheln

If a single party, let's say 4 player, are completely wiped with the exception of the CON it would take 15 min. to raise all 3 of them 0.o.

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Actually, I reckon it'll take about 30 seconds to raise all 3 of them. Now, if they're all stupid enough to die again within 5 minutes, yes, that might be a problem. . .

I think the point of resurrecting is to allow for a strategic mechanic to be used in battles. The old version of resurrecting essentially ended up trivializing content by allowing everyone to be continuously resurrected.

Something to keep in mind about Raise; though it's learned by conjurers at level 14, it can be used by other classes as well. So players that are in instanced raids, or other group-oriented content, may do well to add Raise to their action bar in case they need to pitch in and offer a helping hand up, too.

What about Thaumaturge, who learns an equivalent skill? It doesnt seem to be getting an additional tier.

Also, reraise?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

What about Thaumaturge, who learns an equivalent skill? It doesnt seem to be getting an additional tier.

Also, reraise?

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Why would you want unique class abilities to be among both the mage classes? This is what they're trying to prevent! You'll still have access to 2 raises anyways as a THM, insanely easy to take conj to 14 >.>

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This is what they're trying to prevent!

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Then remove Ressurect entirely. If it exists, it should get an improved version. If it so badly needs to be more unique, then remove it.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Then remove Ressurect entirely. If it exists, it should get an improved version. If it so badly needs to be more unique, then remove it.

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Make THM more unique than CON by giving players access to Soulward, its technically already in but not implemented into gameplay

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Then remove Ressurect entirely. If it exists, it should get an improved version. If it so badly needs to be more unique, then remove it.

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They're just trying to make it so everyone can have access to raise without having to spend too much time ranking up a mage class if you don't want to.

Both mage classes don't need high end raise spells, but they want both to get Raise1 so when n00bs go to level a mage class for Raise they don't invest too much time in thm before realizing they should have ranked up conj.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Something to keep in mind about Raise; though it's learned by conjurers at level 14, it can be used by other classes as well. So players that are in instanced raids, or other group-oriented content, may do well to add Raise to their action bar in case they need to pitch in and offer a helping hand up, too.

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Sorry, didn't read the thread but: I was thinking it isn't that huge a sacrifice to waste some points on Raise even if I am just a Pugilist or something if it's a small party, but on a big party, we'll probably be using Jobs instead. Which I have to assume a White Mage will suffice (can't cross skills on Jobs either way, right?), probably having tweaked raise spells. Maybe cooldowns, maybe AoE. Who knows?

maybe each of raise x rebierth = 2 skills + 1 thauramage revive skill = 3x raise in 5 mins, it isnt so bad nah ?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Then remove Ressurect entirely. If it exists, it should get an improved version. If it so badly needs to be more unique, then remove it.

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What kind of stupid argument is that? If something exists, there should be the exact same thing, just better as well?

Sorry, but there can't always be something better of something that's in the game...there has to be an end at some point, and giving THMs better Raises makes CON getting better ones obsolete...why not just merge them and get rid of CON and THM as mage classes by themselves and combine them to one mage class...some people really need to use their brain more often.

Sounds to me like a good way of making people play their party roles as well as possible. Treat it as motivation to not wipe =P

In FFXI, if you wiped and only your healers had Reraise (good LSs made their members have RR items), then you laid there dead waiting for the party to slowly come back up, people taking random Raises and Raise IIs just to get back up and get the event going again.

In WoW, if you wiped and only a healer survived (by means of Divine Intervention from a Paladin, or a soulstone, etc.), most people would usually ghost back to the raid unless there were repops (talking 25+ raids here, 10-mans/5-mans is a different story).

It depends on what is easier in the moment. If you're really far into a dungeon and you don't want to run all the way back through it, you are going to wait however long it takes to get a raise. If there are dungeon repops, you have no choice.

Really, it's situational. And as the rep said, if you're in that kind of situation where if you wipe you need to help raise afterward, spend the 3 points on the r14 raise spell.

You have a 5 min CD on raise 1, ppl are suppose to stay alive not to die every 2 min :)