I just wanna doublecheck something (BLM)

I'm leveling a BLM (lv37 now) and was kicked from a Brayflox Longstop dungeon run because someone in the party who said he had an i94 BLM got angry at me; he said that if I cared about my DPS I would be using Fire II on packs of three or more mobs. I commented back that it was my understanding that unless there was 4 or more mobs, using single target attacks was higher DPS, and then he vote-kicked me from the group.

I'm about 90% certain he was wrong, but never let it be said I don't confirm things. How many mobs should there be before I start using Fire II?

EDIT: I'm torn between thinking this post is really stupid for even bothering, because the guy was pretty extraordinarily bad, and yet at the same time, I refuse to ever insist I can't learn something new, because that's how I stop getting better, and I am fairly new to BLM anyway and apparently the other two party members agreed with him, so maybe I am wrong?

At your level, I believe Fire II is better on pack of three or more mobs as it's 100 potency on 3 mobs (effectively 300 potency) compared to 150 potency from Fire I. It would have been 2 mobs or more (200 vs 150 potency) if the mana cost was the same but Fire II cost more than Fire iirc in the ball park of a bit more than 4/3 the mana cost. DPS doesn't matter at the level you're at so idk why this guy vote kicked you. Not like you can't finish Brayflox just doing single target. At 34, which is the level Brayflox sync you to, you should start with Fire III then proceed to Fire IIs on packs of mobs but like I said, it doesn't really matter since the rotation changes up at 50 anyway.

To elaborate, Fire = 150 Potency and 2.5s Cast Time. Fire II = 100 Potency and 3s Cast Time. This means Fire is 60 P/s and Fire II is 33.3 P/s so casting Fire II on at least two mobs will be higher DPS than Fire (In the short run. MP cost will affect how much damage you do for an extended period). This changes at level 44 when you pick up the Firestarter trait which gives you a 40% to proc a free instant Fire III. At this point, you need to hit more mobs with Fire II to make it worthwhile.

If the party as a whole, or at least the tank, were ok with burning down several mobs, than yeah, you should use it on three or more mobs. 2 mobs is relatively negligible, and that guy didn't need to make a deal about it on Brayflox Classic. You shouldn't have been kicked over it though... He was just an *^*%&*#. Sorry for your trouble, and hang in there.

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Originally Posted by tezzeret

To elaborate, Fire = 150 Potency and 2.5s Cast Time. Fire II = 100 Potency and 3s Cast Time. This means Fire is 60 P/s and Fire II is 33.3 P/s so casting Fire II on at least two mobs will be higher DPS than Fire (In the short run. MP cost will affect how much damage you do for an extended period).

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Good point; the only major issue is the mana difference; 3 Fire IIs per astral phase vs 5 Fire I (assuming a Fire 3 to get me to Astral II). Though I think I failed to properly mention part of his complaint was that I was using Thunder II on the mobs at the start of the fight instead of going straight into Fire II (Yay half dozen Thundercloud procs?). My general goal in dungeons has always been to try and end each fight at the very end of an Astra phase, so I spend as much time in combat as possible in Astra phase. I think I was thinking I shouldn't use Fire II at that point, because if I used Fire II, I'd have to have a whole extra Umbra Phase per each pack of mobs, and I think I was figuring the DPS loss of Umbra made Fire II on 3 mobs not worthwhile.

I'm... pretty sure the difference, factoring in extra Umbra phase, is reasonably negligible (probably in the range of a 10% difference), and not entirely worth calculating out which is better in low level dungeons since rotation is different at 50 anyway. Besides, as I main a Paladin, I'm not super comfortable dumping full AOE attacks on a level 34 Paladin Tank that doesn't even have Shield Oath yet, that's moderately tricky to hold aggro against even for a skilled and well geared player (and this tank kept losing aggro on tertiary targets to the healer, so I would've just been grabbing ALL THE AGGRO EVER).

Blech, I'm over-thinking this. It's just the second time in 10+ years I've been kicked form a group in an MMO, so it's sorta giving me a weird pseudo-anxiety attack over "WHAT DID I DO WRONG?" Like you said, it's Brayflox, it's not hard, and the rotation does change at 50 because of Flare.

I have a ilvl 90 BLM, so I like to believe I know what I'm talkin' about here.

Fire II is great for mobs of more than 1 (once you're 50 with Flare). Otherwise, you can spam fire 2 I suppose.

Personally, I use fire 2-> flare if running a 50 dungeon. Otherwise, I go single target for 1-2 mobs, and fire 2 to "tenderize" bigger groups. In all reality, it just washes out in lower level dungeons (like Brayflox) so as long as you keep up a rotation of some kind and pew pew, you're good.

Sounds like that other BLM is just an elitist and you shouldn't have been kicked (probably reportable). That said, I don't go for optimal DPS. If they're dying and my mana is flowin one way or the other, then you're doing fine.

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Originally Posted by Karilyn

I'm leveling a BLM (lv37 now) and was kicked from a Brayflox Longstop dungeon run because someone in the party who said he had an i94 BLM got angry at me; he said that if I cared about my DPS I would be using Fire II on packs of three or more mobs. I commented back that it was my understanding that unless there was 4 or more mobs, using single target attacks was higher DPS, and then he vote-kicked me from the group.

I'm about 90% certain he was wrong, but never let it be said I don't confirm things. How many mobs should there be before I start using Fire II?

EDIT: I'm torn between thinking this post is really stupid for even bothering, because the guy was pretty extraordinarily bad, and yet at the same time, I refuse to ever insist I can't learn something new, because that's how I stop getting better, and I am fairly new to BLM anyway and apparently the other two party members agreed with him, so maybe I am wrong?

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Hi! I am BLM main too but I won't be answering your question. I just want to point out that you should report them for abusing the votekick. Votekick, currently, is not used for this subject of matter. It's rude to kick someone merely for this. Don't you think so?

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Originally Posted by Umero

Hi! I am BLM main too but I won't be answering your question. I just want to point out that you should report them for abusing the votekick. Votekick, currently, is not used for this subject of matter. It's rude to kick someone merely for this. Don't you think so?

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It is, and it has been mentioned by the Devs in the forum that it is an abuse of the system (I've seen it somewhere but can't remember exactly where). You two had a difference of opinions, and your opinion got you kicked; which violates your right to free thought and speech, and thus considered harassment. I hope you were able to report them, and the others involved, for it, providing that is exactly how it played out.

Edit: I found the post!!! http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...35#post1769135

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Originally Posted by Umero

Hi! I am BLM main too but I won't be answering your question. I just want to point out that you should report them for abusing the votekick. Votekick, currently, is not used for this subject of matter. It's rude to kick someone merely for this. Don't you think so?

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Yeah. I wasn't even being rude. I think what I said was something like "Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that it only becomes advantageous to use AOEs if there are at least 4 mobs, and that for 3 or less mobs you should stick to single target attacks." (I think this misconception might have been formed out of my main class being PLD and Flash's threat being astonishingly piss terrible) And then it was just all like "You were removed from the group." I've never exactly been known for being a rude person, and I usually pride myself on learning and being the best I can be at all times. So it really gave me a bit of an anxiety overload.

That being said I can't report him as I didn't take down his name, and I wouldn't want to get him in trouble with Square anyway. I've been trying to tell myself that him and the other two party members were friends who queued together and that they had been talking to each other in private about how bad they thought I was, instead of just being upfront and talking to me, and thus they worked up in their minds that I was worse than I actually was. That would mean it wasn't personal and was only just a big misunderstanding. They were right, I was playing badly because I didn't know BLM as well as I thought, and the only misunderstanding was in that they thought I wasn't willing to learn.

The most frustrating part of it was we were literally two pulls away from Aiatar, and both of the last two pulls are 2 mob pulls, so the argument didn't even matter anyway cause there was nothing left to AOE :/

EDIT: That being said, I now realize that Fire II does a lot more damage than I thought it did and I'll start using it on 3 mob pulls if the tank seems to be able to comfortably manage their threat. I'm still... uncomfortable with this, because as a PLD main, I'd prefer if players DoT'd everything then single target downed the mobs one at a time if there's only 3 mobs, not for threat reasons, but just because that feels faster. But if AOE is better then it's better, there's no arguing with that. I should give a deeper look at the AOEs of all the classes I play. (It feels REALLY weird AOEing only 3 mobs. Doesn't feel like an AOE spell in an MMO should be powerful enough for that to be viable.)

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Originally Posted by Karilyn

That being said I can't report him as I didn't take down his name, and I wouldn't want to get him in trouble with Square anyway.

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No. You always want to get these guys in trouble. DPS queues for dungeons are long. Kicking a DPS is not just a trivial inconvenience for said person, it can ruin someone's entire gaming night by making them wait hours for queues to pop, and generating unnecessary hostility in the playerbase. It also has trickle effects into endgame where DPS are extremely defensive to being called out on bad rotations, and generally get away with subpar playing because of it.

Also, you always want to DoT up all the mobs with Thunder II. For lower level BLMs thundercloud procs can hit as hard as Fire III. Your rotation seems fine to me.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

...Generating unnecessary hostility in the playerbase. It also has trickle effects into endgame where DPS are extremely defensive to being called out on bad rotations, and generally get away with subpar playing because of it.

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*nods* I'll report it if I see it again. I try to make a big deal out of being calm and understanding with players; almost nobody wants to be bad, and if they aren't afraid of you, they tend to be surprisingly open-minded to change (I must've seen 20+ GLDs in the first 3-4 dungeons spamming Riot Blade to get more MP to spam more Flash instead of using Savage Blade, which I walked through how to tank better, and watched them miraculously improve in mere moments). Everyone didn't know what they were doing at one point; we only stop growing when we refuse to accept our capability for further learning, and not a minute before then.

I have a long history of playing tanks and healers. I don't think I've ever played a DPS before in the entire 13 years I've been playing MMOs. The Armory system let me branch out, and my immediate reaction upon playing a BLM is wondering how I ever thought DPSer's jobs were easy; feels way harder than tanking or healing ever did. I now find myself speculating that a large part of the reason behind the seemingly common under-performing DPS is due to the seeming omnipresent MMO myth that DPSing is supposed to be really easy, when in reality it seems like this seemingly endless mountain of tiny tweaks you can make to squeeze another little bit more DPS out of your play. Which hasn't been a thing in MMOs for tanks since threat was made trivial ("Wait 10 seconds for the tank to get threat before DPSing, then DPS very slowly"), and it was never really a thing for healers, as HPS doesn't matter so much as good judgement calls.

also keep in mind at that level tanks can't keep hate for shit.

Using aoe is probably just going to annoy your tank and healer more than anything else

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Originally Posted by Akirakogami

also keep in mind at that level tanks can't keep hate for shit. Using aoe is probably just going to annoy your tank and healer more than anything else

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Considering I main PLD and do the Low Level Roulette every day, trust me, I know. Though really Lv26 is the magic level because of Rage of Halone; once you have that, there's very little in low level dungeons you can't hold aggro against; I'm just glad the first 4 dungeons are so trivially easy that it doesn't matter if people are ripping aggro off of me if they even sneeze in the wrong direction.

Shield Oath, while useful, is not... strictly necessary; you'll be humping enmity really close, but it's usually just barely enough to squeak by, if you are switching targets and spreading your enmity evenly enough. If I'm playing with people I know, I'll usually go Sword Oath instead because +20% extra damage and it's less boring cause I have to actually work for enmity instead of having it handed to me on a silver platter. I'd do it it in Low Level Roulette too, but I'm sure strangers would get angry at me for it, even if I was holding aggro. Weird that people would get angry at me over it when my policy is "Blow up anything you want as hard as you want and I'll take all responsibility for any loss of aggro," oh well.

always spam Bliz II crew checking in...

to be fair you could report them but that doesn't help you anyway, dick players will be dicks regardless. and getting that guy banned just means you kinda screw hard with someone's effort in the game. don't think he deserves this cause he fails at social interaction. the others that agreed on the vote kick are probably the bigger jerks for taking "me 94, me smart, me knows job" as a given, especially when it didn't hurt the run at all, it seems.
Sleeping stuff and letting your healer do dmg might have been the bigger dps increase anyway >_>

Regardless of which one is better to use, that d-bag BLM should've vote-kicked this guy for not knowing the proper skill rotation. Heck, this dude is only at his learning / leveling phase.

Simply put, if someone is going to vote kick a person because they are not moving a run fast enough for them, they are really a Dbag in the first place. Look, you spend the same amount of money that the other guy does. It's his opinion how to run your character. It is true that Fire II does more DPS, but I have seen a lot of high level characters who are doing low instances get the entire party wiped because "they know how to play". Enjoy the run, experiment with your character and do what works. If they don't like it they can re-cue themselves.

Hi, I'm learning BLM (only lvl 33), my main is PLD ilvl90 and WHM ilvl80.

I had read that DoT are efficient and I usually start with Thunder II (and put it on all mobs) then later Fire, etc (As THM I used also Aero.) Until Brayflox, I noticed that Fire II many times meant pulling aggro off the tank, so I refrained. In Brayflox I could use Fire II and no problem, but maybe it was that tank who pulled well. Starting with Thunder II also gives time to the tank to aggro all the mobs.

Should I change and start with Fire II? (I have read about rotations but they are for level 50 BLM, not for low level ones.)
A tank complained once in Haukke Manor because I placed a DoT on the boos that was marked as 2 to attack (the boss that are Jester and other, just 2 to keep aggro on.)

By the way, I have seen, to my surprise, a THM being kicked because he was not using DoT (I was a WHM, a low level dungeon, I can't remember what) with no discussion at all, no "please use DoT" nor anything.

A funny thing (for a tank and healer player) that happens with BLM and THM is that the mobs that you have not yet attacked don't appear on your enemy list, so until you have attacked once you don't see what mobs have their life going down quickly and are the main target, if the tank does not mark the kill order.

Depends on number of mobs and fight duration. Thunder is mainly good because of Thundercloud procs. Most of the time on mob pack I just start with Fire 2 right away and use Thunder only during boss fights, but it can be worth it with a smaller number of mobs depending on your proc luck.

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Originally Posted by JonBigwood

A tank complained once in Haukke Manor because I placed a DoT on the boos that was marked as 2 to attack (the boss that are Jester and other, just 2 to keep aggro on.)

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That tank doesn't know BLM DPS. Thunder on a second mob is twice the chance for Thundercloud, I'll do the same every time. Threat shouldn't be an issue since the healer will be a lot higher than one lousy thunder on the 2nd boss.

So lets actually look at numbers and what they mean. Lets say the base damage of a spell is 200 damage before applying potency. The damage equation divides the potency by 100 then uses this a s multiplier in the damage equation. So a fire 2 split btw 2 mobs would be (200x(100/100)))= 200 x2(mob)= 400 damage. a fire 1 has a potency of 150 meaning it will do (200(150/100))x1= 1.5 damage or 300 damage. Since you can get about 3 fire II's in and 5 fire 1's at lvl 37 before having to enter umbra ice. that's 5x300= 1500 damage from fire 1. 400*3=1200 damage. Once you add a third mob into the equation the fire 2 rotation grows to 1600 damage which means its slightly ahead but negligible amount at that lvl. You still need about 4 mobs without firestarter for it to be a noticeable difference better.

Funny story I had the exact opposite happen. I had a lvl 37 blm who would only cast fire II saying that his spell speed was so fast that he could cast fire 2 so much faster then fire 1 that it was stronger. I tried talking to him about time spent in umbral ice, how spell speed works, how potency works, so did the 2 other party members and all he did the whole run was tell us we don't know what we are talking and we are stupid. we all reported him but we never kicked him we just tried to teach him.

The lv94 BLM is right but to kick you for it is just LOL. Report him. Keep in mind that the fact that fire 1 keeps you in Astral Fire longer is not that a big of a factor, its a very minor one in fact due to the way BLMs work. I'm too tired to explain everything so just parse it, have one BLM do fire 1 and one do fire 2. The result is even more apparent one you get Flare. Why? Too tired to explain, parse it.

This might sound a little dumb but I just follow a simple rule of thumb for low level dungeons. If they are a Warrior, feel free to AoE all the time because with Overpower they should be fine to hold hate on multiple enemies. If its a Paladin I tend to be a little more cautious and ask if they can hold an AoE rotation before we start or see if they are marking targets.

In terms of numbers, its really only viable in low level dungeons to AoE at 4 or more enemies otherwise single target is better for maximum DPS. In the endgame you definitely need to AoE a lot more to speed things up.