Don't pull it if you can't hold it!

I am a i94 whm and I love big pulls. But for the love of god don't make big pulls if you cant hold the mobs. There is nothing worse as a whm then trying to heal ping pong damage. Or worse yet I die because I am spamming cure 2 to try and keep everyone alive.

The counter to this argument is if you can't heal through big pulls then I won't do it. I normally do big pulls, BL hard for example only needs 4 mob pulls to do the entire dungeon (not including boss). But I've been in instances where I do my normal thing and pull big and suddenly I find myself burning through my cool downs too quickly because:

a) the healer can't keep up
b) the dps are too slow
c) a and b

Keeping hate is not that hard. For wars its flash, OP, SC and for pld it flash and RoH, though I find holding hate as pld in large pulls (6+ mobs) to be a little harder since they lack the aoe enmity that wars have.

TS;DR Yea I agree with the op.

Blissa, your not telling any tank anything they don't know. Sorry if you played with a bad one, but talking to THAT tank is much more effective than trying to PSA all tanks who likely CAN hold onto a large group.

PS: If you died in Brayflox, please try to tank it yourself, and see how frustrating it can be when Paralyze procs 5 times in a row on you, and your unable to hit a CD, or an Overpower/Flash in time.

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Originally Posted by ZDamned

Blissa, your not telling any tank anything they don't know. Sorry if you played with a bad one, but talking to THAT tank is much more effective than trying to PSA all tanks who likely CAN hold onto a large group.

PS: If you died in Brayflox, please try to tank it yourself, and see how frustrating it can be when Paralyze procs 5 times in a row on you, and your unable to hit a CD, or an Overpower/Flash in time.

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I kind of have to agree with both sides here. On one hand, tanks SHOULD know. On the other hand, from personal experience, most tanks that do dungeons don't know (I don't consider the scenario "dungeons" as dungeons-those tanks tend to be good).

As for bray, it can be frustrating but at the same time, tank should be planning accordingly. Even worse is when I'm curing paralyze right away or when it doesn't even proc and they still can't hold aggro at all. Had one tank just stand there attacking one enemy using his aoes on one single enemy while the party was fighting the rest of the enemies. I dropped the tank to save the party. Tank blamed me for dying and thought that the party was the "worst party ever". Same tank that didn't realize that our BLM was afk at the start of the duty and who thought the BLM was attacking the mobs. (Despite no fire explosions or ice explosions or any explosions). Where our Lancer was the only DPS we had. Both me and DPS noticed but tank was clueless.

First time, tank held aggro at least so we lasted a good minute before my MP finally died from spamming cure 2 to keep the tank alive. Granted, the lancer was kind of watching his aggro from what I saw and wasn't randomly AoE'ing or anything and was even attacking same target as the tank.

Second time, tank completely lost aggro. First to the BLM then even to the Lancer who was probably trying to save me from all the enemies that suddenly rushed me. Tank just stands there aoe'ing ONE target while the rest are everywhere else.

That is just one of the many. For every good run, I'll get 3 decent runs and 10-20 bad runs.

It has gotten so bad that I've learned to tank on my THM/BLM/ARC/SMN/CON/WHM/SCH. Notice anything wrong there with that class lineup and theoretical ability to tank?

I just gotta say that holding a big pull becomes exponentially more difficult if a DPS launches something powerful right off the bat, especially if both DPS rage into different mobs. You're too busy trying to wrangle that /those mob/s and its/their new-found blood lust, and the effort to pull them back eats into parts of your combo rotation which would otherwise be divvied out across several different mobs to increase your enmity against them. When things turn south, there has usually been a series of unfortunate events which led to such happening.

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Originally Posted by ariaandkia

It has gotten so bad that I've learned to tank on my THM/BLM/ARC/SMN/CON/WHM/SCH. Notice anything wrong there with that class lineup and theoretical ability to tank?

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Idk about the other classes but tanking as a whm is actually pretty easy lol. Like during the first mass pull in brayflox hm, if tank decides to stop at ramp i'll gladly just stand still and heal away/ dps regardless if i'm eating the gob's aoe explosions lol.
They barely hurt and i can still heal everyone for a good 3-5mins even if i'm being attacked by a few enemies that the tank failed to pick up. I just mark them so that they will hopefully see it.
Once your hp passes that 5-6k threshold you'll see how godly stoneskin is in these level 50 dungeons. XD
Quick yoshi! Put a gear cap on!

This topic thread just reminds me of why I don't go for big pulls while tanking, it requires a large amount of trust in the DPS and healer to do their job well and fast. Outside of people you know, I've noticed way too many people who are unable to do their jobs that well in DF, so I tend to stray away from big pulls.

Also, just because this brings to mind something...when the hell did speed runs through gathering large amounts of mobs become a thing here? I did a run with some Japanese players and they grabbed small mob groups, we burned them down, went forward, and repeated all the way through Haukke Manor HM. It was one of the fastest runs I had been through in the place simply because they didn't overpull, they grabbed the groups that already link to each other (at most had 4 enemies on us), and we go through with the place with 6-7 minutes left on the protect. When did the thought of larger pulls = faster runs become so prevalent?

Amen sister!!!! I absolutely can't stand it when a tank says speed run, and after my very first flare I get full hate on EVERYTHING!!! Kill me naow!!! ><

First to those talking about being paralyzed...if your getting paralyzed your not dodging AoE well enough, which means your taking too much dmg which means the wipe is most likely your fault in the first place.

Secondly...I never do large pulls unless I'm with a premade and its been stated already that we're going to be speed running the dungeon.

Lastly, to the guy who talked about Haukke Manor (SP?) Pulling small groups is faster if the dps is not capable of burning through large AoE dmg. Hence why I only run speedruns with premades. In many cases if you don't have the right group composition large pulls does nothing but add more stress to the healer and tank. It all depends on the skill of the group and the group composition.

The funny thing about speed runs is people not understanding what they do. Like warriors rotating butchers block to hold enmity and using inner beast while at full life. And paladins circling like a chicken and not bothering to use flash. I don't know what do they expect to happen, bust is a fact - most of blms in df are afraid to use flare. I got a good habit of standing close to tank before i start healing so he can flash mobs away from me. Maybe it's some kind of reactive tanking - don't flash/overpower until you loose enmity. In the easier content bards can hold aoe enmity and tank very well (no joke) - let them tank and you should be fine.
But more often i get tanks who pull 2-3 groups and dps kill them 1 by 1 - because this (and many other weird things) is what people usually do in the duty finder.

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Originally Posted by ZDamned

Blissa, your not telling any tank anything they don't know. Sorry if you played with a bad one, but talking to THAT tank is much more effective than trying to PSA all tanks who likely CAN hold onto a large group.

PS: If you died in Brayflox, please try to tank it yourself, and see how frustrating it can be when Paralyze procs 5 times in a row on you, and your unable to hit a CD, or an Overpower/Flash in time.

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Haha, you beat me to the paralyze comment :)

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Originally Posted by Nabian

First to those talking about being paralyzed...if your getting paralyzed your not dodging AoE well enough, which means your taking too much dmg which means the wipe is most likely your fault in the first place.

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Just to point this out, the coeurls before the first boss apply the paralyze without using an AoE attack, or a cast time, makes it a little difficult to dodge it.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

This topic thread just reminds me of why I don't go for big pulls while tanking, it requires a large amount of trust in the DPS and healer to do their job well and fast. Outside of people you know, I've noticed way too many people who are unable to do their jobs that well in DF, so I tend to stray away from big pulls.

Also, just because this brings to mind something...when the hell did speed runs through gathering large amounts of mobs become a thing here? I did a run with some Japanese players and they grabbed small mob groups, we burned them down, went forward, and repeated all the way through Haukke Manor HM. It was one of the fastest runs I had been through in the place simply because they didn't overpull, they grabbed the groups that already link to each other (at most had 4 enemies on us), and we go through with the place with 6-7 minutes left on the protect. When did the thought of larger pulls = faster runs become so prevalent?

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I'm with you there! Besides, you have to factor in bad speedruns into your average clear time. If you have a wipe or two, you may as well have done it the normal way.

One thing I hate as a tank is being pushed to speedrun (there's a trust factor, which frankly I don't have for some people). When people tell me to grab more mobs or pull them for me, it annoys me. I know what my own comfort level is. It's like if you're driving a car and doing 65 and someone tells you to do 90 because they're comfortable doing 90. You're best served driving to your ability, not someone else's. Yes, I just compared healers/dps who do this to backseat drivers but hey, if you want to drive, you're welcome to, just play a tank! :)

Pulling big groups requires checking the healer gear first. As long as the healer will bruteforce heal you spamming the heals, the only difference between different healers is its gear. If you got a fresh new 50 healer with i50 gear, don't think to pull as much as any i90 healer can hold.

Edit: as healer forgot to add, tanks are expected to use mitigation skills. I got tanks pulling hard but neither using basic things as Rampart, neither when it was evident my heals aren't keeping up with the damage they got and their death will be in xx seconds if he don't act or mobs die.

Add also dps in the factor. If dps is slow, it adds pressure to healer, who needs keep up 2x the needed time. In my healer i58 done brayflox a number of times, and when meet (over)geared people no issues at all with pulls. Sometime instead 1st pull is a mess, guess why, Then tank halven the pulls for his own sake.

I can agree I don't do speed runs in the DF unless I'm confident it can happen tho I'm the over cautious Warrior so during large pulls especially when I get the luck of 2 blm I don't use ST rotations, my usual for large pulls like BF hard is infuriate pull groups once I reach the stopping point I SC then over power 3-4 times with bloodbath up and foresight cause why not, tho I'll throw up CD as needed. then flash till empty mp to let tp recharge then back into over power usually there dead by then but it's mainly to allow blm to freely double flare tho I tell them don't atk till I do steel cyclone cause just from my experience it gives me more Emity then flash at start and time to turn around to OP. Havnt lost hate yet and plenty of time between pulls to get mp/tp back

And this is why I don't do big pulls. I don't speed run things, and I have no intent to.

I no longer mind as much because I've just learned to expect it but a pet peeve of mine is when a tank decides to mass pull and DOESN'T TELL THE HEALER.

You NEED to say SOMETHING. "big pull" is more than enough. But running off and grabbing 15 mobs while I have no Aetherflow stacks up, or E4E on cd, or maybe I just switched classes and need to wait for a bit to be completely ready but you can't just go speeding off into the depths of Wanderer's Palace with me having one Lustrate and Selene out and DAMMIT WAIT FOR PROTECT.

Sorry. That got ranty.

I only just started doing pulls. In Bray HM of course since it's all the rage now lol. Usually I have a complete party from my FC so it's always smooth. The DPS don't start doing their thing till I tell them to so holding hasn't been an issue. On the biggest pulls I find trying to rotate through mobs near impossible so it's usually a infuriate to steel cyclone, pepper in an overpower or two. Rotation back to five stacks for another SC if needed with a flash or two thrown inbetween if it's taking a little longer than expected.

It's one thing if you can't hold pulls.

It's another when you're holding pulls and DPS/healer decide to just stand around doing dismal amount of damage and barely healing you. Especially when you're tanking 10+ said mobs of BrayHM. And when the healer keeps pulling aggro on that last coeurl because they keep standing in the doorway. And when BLM suddenly dies for no reason (other than probably standing in AoE).

I used to tank in WoW, and in my experience there's a lot of pressure from DPS to pull big, mainly because they want to see pretty numbers on the meters. My personal rule was never go for large pulls unless it was the healer asking for them. It made me a slow tank, but it's a pretty good rule ... especially in PUGs where the last thing you want to see as a healer is a tank who wants to make everything your fault.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

This topic thread just reminds me of why I don't go for big pulls while tanking, it requires a large amount of trust in the DPS and healer to do their job well and fast. Outside of people you know, I've noticed way too many people who are unable to do their jobs that well in DF, so I tend to stray away from big pulls.

Also, just because this brings to mind something...when the hell did speed runs through gathering large amounts of mobs become a thing here? I did a run with some Japanese players and they grabbed small mob groups, we burned them down, went forward, and repeated all the way through Haukke Manor HM. It was one of the fastest runs I had been through in the place simply because they didn't overpull, they grabbed the groups that already link to each other (at most had 4 enemies on us), and we go through with the place with 6-7 minutes left on the protect. When did the thought of larger pulls = faster runs become so prevalent?

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Amen to that, come to Gilgamesh!

People that skip trash mobs.. just to get their last boss down.. (I do feel it's an exploit in itself, but SE made it that way, so if you can counter the mechanics planned, the DEVs just need to readjust them)

I like to do full runs, talking in DF (since when you talk in a MMO?) ok some are playing PS3-4, no keyboards, I understand that. Others can say they don't talk cause of PS4, like the 'Lag' when we fail lol

This game is meant to be enjoyed: for me, rushing to get 300 myth per hour, doing the same DGN over and over - not for me.

I am all ears if people wants to teach me something; but like everything, there is a way to get your message been listened to.

Be nice, and people will return the favor.

And yes, 2 times killing 3-4 mobs, no one dies, fast and easy > 8-mobs (higher chances of dying/something goes wrong)

/clap

I was fine taking Brayflox HM Slowly when it was released, but now I have cleared that dungeon over 80 times, I just want my Soldiery cap now... Since those Tomestones take 10 runs to cap each week, I just like it to be over with. I've tanked every single dungeon over 90 times already, so can you blame me for wanting it over with fast?

PS, I don't fail at holding aggro. =P

I can hold Big Mob groups fine, Flash and Savage Blade combo is what keeps me healthy in the mana pool. Scorns helps a little too, but only like a little little.