For most tanks I've seen: Please pay attention to the party

As title states, please pay attention to the party.

I know that when I tank, there are a few things I do before we even really start. Personally, I think tanks really need to follow all of these up to #8. At a minimum. First 7 I do in order.

1) Check classes. No AoE DPS? No real point rushing (DoTs only last so long so rushing too much will only put unnecessary burden on the party)). No bard, make sure the healer has enough MP. Scholar in a low level dungeon? Prepare for debuffs that won't get removed. etc.

2) Check gear. Especially for the healer, but also for other classes. This lets me know what to expect (so I pull the right amount) and what NOT to roll for. (I do this for all classes, not just tank-since if I have level 90 gear and the other player has level 15 gear, I shouldn't be needing on the level 30 gear when the other player clearly needs it more than I do. Heck, I often will ask before I even greed if I know I already have gear just as good or better).

3) Check for new players (usually there is a message, but I also like to ask since it sometimes doesn't show up)

4) Wait for buffs.

5) Look for any requests (speed run, fast run, do multiple groups, keep it slow, full run, etc.)

6) /readycheck

7) Make sure the party is following me!

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Once we get into things, there are a few things I pay attention to. At least pay attention to 8!

8) Aggro. Make sure I'm holding aggro and watch any enemies I'm losing aggro to.

9) Targeting lines. Pretty simple, I watch what my party is targeting.
Seems like too much work for a tank? Healers have to do just as much or more. See #13.

10) Disconnections or sudden afk state. People disconnect or go afk and this can happen at any time for a good number of reasons.
For this reason, I generally stick with normal pulls rather than an excessive pull. And I never purposefully overpull. I define normal pulls as the party can handle comfortably. I define excessive pull as pulls the party can just barely handle if they push themselves. I define overpull as the party will wipe unless RNG decides to favor the party (aka. a miracle).
For this reason, I generally save an emergency card for "when things go wrong, I have a backup plan and can go all out for a few seconds to make up for whatever went wrong." Some people might not agree, but I like having it.

11) My own exhaustion level. Am I starting to get fatigued from playing the same mission over and over? Is my morale getting low? Am I starting to fall asleep? Depending on my answers, I'll change my tanking slightly to make up for that. Which is why I've tanked in my sleep before.

12) My party's exhaustion levels. Same as above except for my party. Are my party members showing signs of fatigue? If so, I will change my tanking to make up for that.

13) Pretty much everything I pay attention to as a healer. When I play a healer, I'm watching HP bars, enemy enmity meters, targeting lines, enmity on me, buffs and debuffs on party members, buffs and debuffs on enemies, current position of allies and enemies, my own MP, party member's MPs, to some extent, party members (tank specifically) tp (based on regen and skill usage), aoe zones, skill load times (specifically for enemies), allies within those aoe zones that won't make it out, debuffs caused by those aoe zones (though no point pre-casting esuna since it sometimes won't remove the debuff if you start the cast before the debuff even if the cast won't finish until after the debuff is placed-probably to prevent people from casting esuna as a counter to silence), damage caused by those aoe zones, incoming enemies, skill cooldowns, etc. And I'm not on the PC so I don't have this FFXIV-APP people keep talking about having. I am still struggling a bit with 8/24 player missions since I don't do them as often as 4 player missions.

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For anyone going: hahaha, your tank classes are too nub to give us your opinion. In addition to tanking with my tank classes, I've tanked as a THM, as an ARC/Summoner, as a SCH, and even my WHM. Obviously not for end game dungeons (even I kite instead of tanking)

Good checklist, even as an exp tank most of those points are relevant and lately I don't know why but I've run into a lot of tanks who hone in on one target and pretend to be DPS while the rest of the pack runs wild. Holding aggro is the entire job, damage is really secondary. Who cares if you can't finish that combo for some extra DPS if there's a pack of wolves ripping your healer to shreds...

Party awareness is good. Especially if you see your DPS rocking serious gear, or conversely, are undergeared. That really changes your strategy and I've seen tanks try to speedrun with people in i55 an I'm like ummmm, this is not going to work out well.

P.S. I've noticed that with Esuna/Leeches. It's really annoying >_>

Your 1. point is one of the main things that annoys me when I'm not on my PLD. Why people think rush pulling with no AoE is a good idea, i'll never know.

Also for number 1.

If I have a melee dps, I try to keep the mobs where melee can get behind and to the side of the mob. (off walls and weird elevation changes)

Use cooldowns when they are needed, not when they are up.
1. Rampant - don't use it before the fight, wait until there is a stable incoming damage, so it will actually become useful.
2. Fight or Flight - save it for boss if you have an overgeared dps in team.
3. Convalescence - don't use it when you do not need healing (like from start or during multi-pulls) or when healer is dead.
4. Don't use Hallowed Ground at start - let healer use Benediction/Lustrate first, save it for when it is really needed.
5. Use Flash - it is a good cooldown that lets your team and you to dodge special boss skills.
6. Get Foresight from the Marauder - it's just like rampant, but 30s longer cd.
7. Overpower more (for marauders) - no reason not to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lxSch

6. Get Foresight from the Marauder - it's just like rampant, but 30s longer cd.

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Both Foresight and Rampart have a 90s CD. it bothered me seeing that, had to correct you. =p

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Originally Posted by Tzukuma

Both Foresight and Rampart have a 90s CD. it bothered me seeing that, had to correct you. =p

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foresight has a 90 second CD as a marauder... 120 as a PLD.

I do pay attention, I watch monsters beating on you and i say to myself "meh". And continue watching.

Also any tank that waits for his party is a loser, and any party that doesn't catch up to his tank is a loser.

XSkilled on PLD it (Foresight) has a longer Cooldown than on WAR because MRD gets a trait for it.

1. Every DPS class is an AoE DPS class. I suppose Summoner might be limited to about 3-4 that they can really maximize on. But Monk, DRG, and Bard can all pump out fairly decent DPS on groups -- faster than singles for sure (unless low level). Sure, you should tailor how big your pulls are to what group you have. But don't be the timid tank adding 5 mins to DF brayflox HM by pulling max 3.

2. Similar to #1 in terms of gauging how big to make the pulls. Regarding what to roll for: if it's static/FC, then you've got special methods. But otherwise, I'd just roll if you want it. You put in same effort as these people, so you get same chance at reward. Can do the more altruistic method OP mentioned if you feel like it, but that's just your personal choice.

3. Yep, they'll tell you usually. Or message shows. Just means they will need explanation.

4. OK

5. OK, i guess.

6. Waste of time. Covered by #7 and #10.

7. OK

8. Yep, basic tank role. Requires some learning early on, and attention to maintain in different circumstances.

9. I guess. But mostly just build agro on everything. If your gear is much less than the members of your party, then this becomes more important.

10. OK

11. OK? Mostly I just log off if I'm tired.

12. OK, I guess.

13. Lot of things mentioned. Some make sense to watch, some don't. If you can't change it, then focus on what you can change instead (unless you're in a raid deconstructing why a fight is failing). For example: Ally HP matters for a PLD using Cover maybe - but a WAR can only change their own HP, so focus on that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lxSch

Use cooldowns when they are needed, not when they are up.
1. Rampant - don't use it before the fight, wait until there is a stable incoming damage, so it will actually become useful.
2. Fight or Flight - save it for boss if you have an overgeared dps in team.
3. Convalescence - don't use it when you do not need healing (like from start or during multi-pulls) or when healer is dead.
4. Don't use Hallowed Ground at start - let healer use Benediction/Lustrate first, save it for when it is really needed.
5. Use Flash - it is a good cooldown that lets your team and you to dodge special boss skills.
6. Get Foresight from the Marauder - it's just like rampant, but 30s longer cd.
7. Overpower more (for marauders) - no reason not to.

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Foresight, sadly, is not just like Rampart. It's a pretty weak defensive CD that only effects physical damage. It looks like it mitigates about 5% while it's up; it beats nothing, but it's no Rampart.

The OP sounds very needy, and controlling.

Seems like the OP missed something that should be close to number one: positioning. Really in everything 50+ that's usually the first priority. Know the fight and know where the boss needs to be. Know where ads spawn to make life easier for the OT. Know the bosses attacks so you're not unnecessarily opening your party up to them.

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Originally Posted by Cap75

Seems like the OP missed something that should be close to number one: positioning. Really in everything 50+ that's usually the first priority. Know the fight and know where the boss needs to be. Know where ads spawn to make life easier for the OT. Know the bosses attacks so you're not unnecessarily opening your party up to them.

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Numbers 1-7 is more of a before we even start. 13 is my favorite number, so I kind of put what I felt was most important there.


13) Pretty much everything I pay attention to as a healer. When I play a healer, I'm watching HP bars, enemy enmity meters, targeting lines, enmity on me, buffs and debuffs on party members, buffs and debuffs on enemies, current position of allies and enemies, my own MP, party member's MPs, to some extent, party members (tank specifically) tp (based on regen and skill usage), aoe zones, skill load times (specifically for enemies), allies within those aoe zones that won't make it out, debuffs caused by those aoe zones (though no point pre-casting esuna since it sometimes won't remove the debuff if you start the cast before the debuff even if the cast won't finish until after the debuff is placed-probably to prevent people from casting esuna as a counter to silence), damage caused by those aoe zones, incoming enemies, skill cooldowns, etc. And I'm not on the PC so I don't have this FFXIV-APP people keep talking about having. I am still struggling a bit with 8/24 player missions since I don't do them as often as 4 player missions.

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Originally Posted by RhazeCain

1. Every DPS class is an AoE DPS class. I suppose Summoner might be limited to about 3-4 that they can really maximize on. But Monk, DRG, and Bard can all pump out fairly decent DPS on groups -- faster than singles for sure (unless low level). Sure, you should tailor how big your pulls are to what group you have. But don't be the timid tank adding 5 mins to DF brayflox HM by pulling max 3.

2. Similar to #1 in terms of gauging how big to make the pulls. Regarding what to roll for: if it's static/FC, then you've got special methods. But otherwise, I'd just roll if you want it. You put in same effort as these people, so you get same chance at reward. Can do the more altruistic method OP mentioned if you feel like it, but that's just your personal choice.

3. Yep, they'll tell you usually. Or message shows. Just means they will need explanation.

4. OK

5. OK, i guess.

6. Waste of time. Covered by #7 and #10.

7. OK

8. Yep, basic tank role. Requires some learning early on, and attention to maintain in different circumstances.

9. I guess. But mostly just build agro on everything. If your gear is much less than the members of your party, then this becomes more important.

10. OK

11. OK? Mostly I just log off if I'm tired.

12. OK, I guess.

13. Lot of things mentioned. Some make sense to watch, some don't. If you can't change it, then focus on what you can change instead (unless you're in a raid deconstructing why a fight is failing). For example: Ally HP matters for a PLD using Cover maybe - but a WAR can only change their own HP, so focus on that.

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1) Not every class is an AOE DPS class. At ENDGAME Dungeons, yes, every JOB at ENDGAME can AoE. But before then? Take lancer in a level 15 dungeon. No AoE. Pug in any early game dungeon. Though admittedly, depending on the pug, they can at least do something with groups. But when your only DPS is a SINGLE Dragoon? Don't go pulling 10 groups and expect to survive. There is just not enough AoE DPS there.

6) My teams have saved ourselves plenty of party wipes by doing ready checks. Readycheck! Oh, 3/4? Who isn't ready? Oh, healer? Yeah, we should probably wait then. 3/4, our AoE is afk? probably should do smaller pulls then. #7 is more of a make sure that they are actually following you and didn't get lost or take a different path. #10 is more of a during battle, check to see if anyone suddenly DC'ed or went afk mid-combat because that would be the time to use any things you have saved for emergencies.

13) Yeah, my point was more of what you said, pay attention to anything you can do something about.

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Originally Posted by MythToken

The OP sounds very needy, and controlling.

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I can be if necessary. If the team has no idea what they are doing, I'll take control and direct everyone to specific tasks. As for needy, well, even if I don't NEED tanks to be good, or healers to be good, I would LIKE them to be at least decent.

I have a relevant question for Tanks and Positioning enemies for flanking dps. Not sure to really put this question, but this topic reminded me to ask.
for the most part I try to keep aware of what my party is doing and how much to pull.

but when it comes to trash mobs, How important is it to keep the enemy in a certain position for those dps that have those flank moves? I have no real interest in leveling DRG/MNK since most everyone in my fc and static use these roles (lazy I know)

I understand the importance of bosses but aoe avoiding (during appropriate times, that is) is usually the priority

^

you want to make sure that you follow the basics of keeping the mobs, even trash, faced away from AoE as I'm sure you know. When it comes to MNK/DRG, just try to make sure that you are not moving the mobs TOO much. It can be tricky during speed runs and such to keep from moving too much, but in general u want to keep the enemies from doing a 180 so that the MNK and DRG don't have to completely change their positioning.

@Dosito, basic rule of thumb is simply move them as little as possible once you have them positioned where you want. If you can't stun them out of an AOE and you're not so overgeared that you can just shrug it off then time it so your back in position as soon as the AOE marker is gone and the mob shouldn't really move.

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Originally Posted by Dosito

I have a relevant question for Tanks and Positioning enemies for flanking dps. Not sure to really put this question, but this topic reminded me to ask.
for the most part I try to keep aware of what my party is doing and how much to pull.

but when it comes to trash mobs, How important is it to keep the enemy in a certain position for those dps that have those flank moves? I have no real interest in leveling DRG/MNK since most everyone in my fc and static use these roles (lazy I know)

I understand the importance of bosses but aoe avoiding (during appropriate times, that is) is usually the priority

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

^

you want to make sure that you follow the basics of keeping the mobs, even trash, faced away from AoE as I'm sure you know. When it comes to MNK/DRG, just try to make sure that you are not moving the mobs TOO much. It can be tricky during speed runs and such to keep from moving too much, but in general u want to keep the enemies from doing a 180 so that the MNK and DRG don't have to completely change their positioning.

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What Lord_Zlatan said.

Generally what I do for aoes is sidestep to get out, attack, sidestep back to my starting spot during the skill animation. This minimizes movement while still dodging. Always TRY to face the mobs away from the party unless you have a good reason not to. You want the backs exposed to your DPS or at the very minimum, the sides. Even against trash mobs, this can speed up the fight. Also, try to group the enemies best you can. You take less damage from the front, especially for paladins but even for marauders. (Not going that in depth though)

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Originally Posted by Menae

Foresight, sadly, is not just like Rampart. It's a pretty weak defensive CD that only effects physical damage. It looks like it mitigates about 5% while it's up; it beats nothing, but it's no Rampart.

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Very good note, i didn't notice it says "Increases physical defense by 20%". It's still very useful during mob pulls.