To Damage Dealers, and everyone else as well :)

Damage dealing classes are the most populous of characters, so I figure a lot of you here are going to be picking those ones.

I got some great advice for tanking here, and have made a lot of progress because of it so now I want to return the favour.

Please bear in mind this isn't advice for what skills to use or anything exclusively class related so much as it is advice for how best to compliment your healer and your tank.

A consistent problem I run into is damage dealers trying to pressure the tank into moving forward, or not following the cue of the tank, for example:

* Not attacking in the marked order.
* Moving into new areas before the tank has (and often accidentally pulling mobs).
* Not giving the tank enough time to aggro. (One shield lob does not draw enough aggro to control an entire mob.)
* Breaking rank to retrieve a monster that's gone after the healer (that is the tank's job to deal with, focus on the monsters you're already about to kill).

I met some great people during Haukke Manor and Brayflox's Longstop who deferred to me (the tank) about what they'd like to do. If you want to explore everything and kill every mob for the experience, say something! Asking is never a bad thing and it helps the tank facilitate that. If the party seems unsure of a direction to go, offer one up as well, we're a team afterall.

On the note of healers, DDs seem to expect the healer to just keep them all alive without problems, but there are some occasions where you really should consult the healer. For example:

* Titan. His big ugly high in the sky attack does large chunks of damage to everyone in the party. Follow the tank or the healer (the healer will probably follow the tank). This allows the healer to do a quick AOE heal rather than waste the mana healing each person individually when they split to four corners of the room.

On the whole though, if you are unsure, or want to confirm (which you should) chat to the healer before a big fight starts. In most dungeons the tank's role is pretty straight-forward once they have the skills together to manage them, but the healer's role can be particularly taxing, and if it's a long fight their mana can suffer if every effort isn't efficient. A healer without mana is a bit useless, yanno?

Beyond that damage dealers need to be aware of their surroundings. As you move up in levels the dungeon bosses will start to do things like raise lamps in Haukke Manor and use bubble cages (Brayflox) and granite cages (Titan). These need to be taken down immediately. As do mob adds. The tank will often have to stick on the boss, because if they run around trying to help people with a problem that's easy picking they'll wind up cleaving the party. Mobs themselves are a bit different though. Discuss tact with your teams when you start.

All I'm really getting at here is that there are a number of small things that make a run much smoother, and communicating is key. Even if one or two people cannot respond for whatever reason, they can read the text and will know to take the cue.

The final thing I want to say is that there is a consistent issue with negative comments when people get frustrated. This helps no one. If you're bashing your healer because they're having trouble, all you're doing is being a spoil-sport and making that person feel worse, and often less inclined to be a team player. Likewise for the tank, and likewise for damage dealers. There's no reason to say someone sucks, or bash them, or be snarky, or make underhanded comments at them. You're not funny. You're not helping. You're not being a team player.

There are better ways, like offering encouraging advice. It isn't hard to do.

I have a strict rule: If someone behaves that way I abandon the instance / leave the duty. I won't play with people like that and neither should you feel obligated to.

As a level 50 White Mage who only today quit a Titan battle after 50 minutes because of the DD's going to the four corners, or taking too much aggro, or not doing anything to rescue the rock-jailed character, I cannot praise your recommendation enough.

If people keep dying, then the healer gets all the blame, but nine times out of ten, people die because they do stupid things and the healer simply cannot keep up with all 3 others attacking and aggroing different enemies in all directions.

*sigh*

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Originally Posted by Blokeymon

As a level 50 White Mage who only today quit a Titan battle after 50 minutes because of the DD's going to the four corners, or taking too much aggro, or not doing anything to rescue the rock-jailed character, I cannot praise your recommendation enough.

If people keep dying, then the healer gets all the blame, but nine times out of ten, people die because they do stupid things and the healer simply cannot keep up with all 3 others attacking and aggroing different enemies in all directions.

*sigh*

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Definitely understand the sentiment. It was one of the biggest problems clearing Titan for my healer and I. Luckily though, through a little communication (nevermind wiping twice :P) we got it done. Even the effort of getting over to the healer after the damage is dealt helps as the boss is going to defer back to the tank to begin with anyway.

Titan has that nasty punch in it though, and we found that was one big hurdle with the granite cages. If a DD gets thrown over the edge, the tank has to go free the other DD D:.

But the important thing is to keep morale up. Floundering will happen most when the party aren't feeling like a unit. I've been practicing what I've preached since moving up in levels and getting started on my secondary (which will be a White Mage as well), and it generally works. People do listen. I put it down to a case where most DD players probably don't know what it's like to be the tank or the healer, so you need to tell them what you need to make it work.

Sorry to hear your run went so badly! Hopefully your next will be better :).

Having said all that there are players who don't take criticism or advice well, or straight up ignore it altogether. As a budding healer, and to a degree when playing PLD, I've found the best way to teach is to use tough love. If someone repeatedly ignores a cue like, "Hang back, let tank get aggro" or anything else that lets them know they're moving too fast, I simply hang back with the tank and let them die. It's a little slap on the wrist to say that, actually, they can't bully healers and tanks to do what they want.

I just personally find it frustrating when people give you radio silence. Communication is the biggest part of teamwork and I feel a lot of people just have trouble communicating. Either that or you get the excuse "I'm just trying to have fun, lighten up" Now I have a wonderful sense of humor but wiping over and over isn't my personal definition of fun. That being said a lot of the community does become a part of the back and forth that is discussion and I appreciate that. Figured I'd just throw my 2 cents in there. That's also why I think it is essential for everyone to try and play every role. Just to have an idea of what goes on. Okay now Im done :P

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Originally Posted by Fitzmagician

I just personally find it frustrating when people give you radio silence. Communication is the biggest part of teamwork and I feel a lot of people just have trouble communicating. Either that or you get the excuse "I'm just trying to have fun, lighten up" Now I have a wonderful sense of humor but wiping over and over isn't my personal definition of fun. That being said a lot of the community does become a part of the back and forth that is discussion and I appreciate that. Figured I'd just throw my 2 cents in there. That's also why I think it is essential for everyone to try and play every role. Just to have an idea of what goes on. Okay now Im done :P

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Yeah, there are definitely moments where I spit my frustrations, but I tend not to take them out on other people (even if it's their fault), just 'cause I would only do myself and them a disservice if I did. So behind my controller and keyboard I'll be like "!#%#@% Man you're moving ahead of me AGAIN!" but when I speak to them I'll use less profanity and be more like, "Careful not to get too far ahead."

As for radio silence, I always assume a silent person is a person without a keyboard. That mightn't be accurate, but it means I don't take the silence at all personally or get frustrated by it. :)

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Originally Posted by Blokeymon

As a level 50 White Mage who only today quit a Titan battle after 50 minutes because of the DD's going to the four corners, or taking too much aggro, or not doing anything to rescue the rock-jailed character, I cannot praise your recommendation enough.

If people keep dying, then the healer gets all the blame, but nine times out of ten, people die because they do stupid things and the healer simply cannot keep up with all 3 others attacking and aggroing different enemies in all directions.

*sigh*

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Healer will get the blame most of the time. One tank to me went: "Oh, sorry, I didn't realize you were undergeared for large pulls." I was like: "Oh, I'm sorry, we didn't have an aoe DPS and you expected me to heal you through all that?" Tank goes: "What do you think a BLM is?" I went: "Oh, sorry, I didn't realize you couldn't pay attention to the fact that the BLM was afk and not here." (You'd think the lack of big explosions would've been a clue?) Party (amazingly) actually agreed with me and went: "BLM was afk at the time." Even the BLM admitted to it. (Tank was not happy with us). Next group, tank lost aggro on the mobs and so I ended up letting him die to save the rest of the party. That is what I consider a GOOD run.

A great run, there is no problem, tank does their job, holds aggro, checks to make sure the party is ready, makes sure that when someone goes afk, they change their strategy accordingly, lets the healer who is doing the dungeon for the first time know what they are planning...

A bad run? It ends up with: Healer, why didn't you set the bomb? Healer, why didn't you heal me (despite being attacked by every enemy). Healer, why didn't you... Healer, you need to... etc.

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Now, for the OP, I agree with most of the post. However, I slightly disagree with:

2) the going into new areas part. I've done that plenty of times and survived. The problem is knowing when you can and when you can't. Example being the guildheist with the bomb goblin things in the gri forest area with that big root leading up. I run ahead all the time there because I can rush ahead, start nuking the goblins before even breaking the barrier, and boom, can take our time taking out the barrier at our leisure.

3) Aggro. I've forced aggro onto myself (thm) (generally with the healer knowing not to heal me unless the instance was so low level that it didn't matter) when the tank was undergeared and I was actually reasonably geared in order to reduce burden on the healer and tank (I'd take maybe 1-2 mobs and heal myself through, tank would take the rest). In other times, as an arc, tank was so bad at holding aggro that I used my tank pet to hold aggro on the mobs.

4) If tank isn't going after the mob, I will "break rank" to save the healer. Especially since the healer job is hard enough without being attacked. This ties in with 3.


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For when people don't talk, I will generally assume that they are on ps3/ps4 with no keyboard. even then, if the party is clearly waiting for you to speak up, even without a keyboard, you should try to type something like: no kb

I would just like to add an ability that most dps seem to forget or do not use is Quelling Strikes.
I use this both as Bard and with my blm which reduces enmity

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Originally Posted by Maero

I would just like to add an ability that most dps seem to forget or do not use is Quelling Strikes.
I use this both as Bard and with my blm which reduces enmity

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Because only Bard, Black Mage and Summoner have it. Dragoon's enmity drop is Elusive Jump. Monk does not have one.

I would like to stress how important it is that you follow the order the tank marks things in when attacking single targets (unless you have a damn good reason) A tank can easily keep hate when the DPS attack his target. It's a little harder when they are using AoE, but still feasible since each mob is receiving less damage individually. However, if DPS each attack different targets with single attacks, the tank needs to gain immense enmity on multiple targets, which ain't happening. Furthermore, focusing all the damage on one target means it dies faster, making the tank and healer's jobs easier.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

I would like to stress how important it is that you follow the order the tank marks things in when attacking single targets (unless you have a damn good reason) A tank can easily keep hate when the DPS attack his target. It's a little harder when they are using AoE, but still feasible since each mob is receiving less damage individually. However, if DPS each attack different targets with single attacks, the tank needs to gain immense enmity on multiple targets, which ain't happening. Furthermore, focusing all the damage on one target means it dies faster, making the tank and healer's jobs easier.

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This is probably my most common fit when tanking. Having to regain on multiple targets because marked targets aren't being hit, or even the first target struck. I understand that there are times when marking can be redundant, but it really ought to be the case where, if you can, make sure you're hitting the first pull. It's just a bit of situational awareness really.

Second to this are cheeky DDs getting ahead of themselves. I've noticed it happens most with people of a much higher level who've been synced down. Overreaching in both giving the tank room and also not moving faster than the tank because they might feel like they'll be fine. But I've watched numerous players get healed to safety after they've realised that they bit off more than they could actually chew. And likewise, taking on the healing role myself, I've had to do the savior heals a number of times.

But I do want to also say in response to the general topic of the thread and how some folk are responding that one of my more important points, but sadly the last and probably least noticed, was how we handle it all in-game. The aim of starting this thread was to give would-be and starting DDs some general tips and heads ups about some basic form. It isn't so much to air every grievance and make them feel as though we all hate 'em. Afterall, we do need 'em.

But yeah, there's definitely a need for more respect to fellow players on the whole. Healers get a lot of flak, as do tanks, DDs get it too, but I guess the numbers stack in their favour most often because they're just more numerous. Point is to make the effort, if you make a mistake it's no biggie, just be careful if someone calls you up, apologise if you gotta, and if someone's a particularly bad egg? IMO it's better to leave or abstain from responding to them.

I say that because it seems as though a lot of those "bad eggs" think there's an I in Team, and if they're so self-important that they want to do nothing but bring everyone down and make the game less fun, and not accept that different people find different things challenging, they're probably not going to care what you respond with.

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Originally Posted by Lemon8or

Because only Bard, Black Mage and Summoner have it. Dragoon's enmity drop is Elusive Jump. Monk does not have one.

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Have not leveled lancer to dragoon yet and find Monk boring so had no idea but was talking moreso about other Bards and blm's which do not use it but thanks for clearing up what i said ;)

Another thing, if you grab aggro from your tank please don't run around like a headless chicken. Pop a couple of defensive buffs if you need & run towards the tank so they can reclaim it ^^

BUT, if it's your fault for running ahead/attacking out of marked order, chances are the tank is going to teach you an important lesson (^_^)b

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Originally Posted by ariaandkia

-snip-
4) If tank isn't going after the mob, I will "break rank" to save the healer. Especially since the healer job is hard enough without being attacked. This ties in with 3.

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This, so much.

Leveled up Healers and Tanks first and now doing my DPS classes.

The most important thing, especially considering the number of new and inexperienced tanks there are atm, is to pay attention the the enmity indicator.

The enmity indicator is the small bar below your Class/Job-icon in the groupframe.

It will show the current enmity the groupmembers have for the targeted enemy.

Pay attention to not get your bar to 100%, as you will have all the enmity and the enemy will attack you.

Like others said, use your enmity reducing abilities if you have, and/or switch your target, if you see your next attack will most likely turn the enemy on you.

If you happen to get the enemies attention, like others said, do not run away from the tank and if the enemy is not likely to die in the next 2-3 hits: Stop doing damage till the tank has the enemy back!

Have initiative.

If the healer is getting ganked, stop what you're doing, get the hate off that enemy and then take it to the tank.

I have a simple rule when I'm tanking.

You pull it, you tank it.


Also when I DF, I start slow to gauge the abilities of the party. When I tank for FC members or specific PF parties (aka speed runs) I know what I can push. But joining 3 or more strangers for the first time, you have no idea of their capabilities until action starts. Annoys me when players expect to speed run from the start.

I joined expert roulette, got Brayflox HM. party was me on my PLD, DRG, MNK and a SCH. So I started pulling first two packs and stopped. SCH went ape saying I should single pull to the first boss. With 2 primarily single target DPS. When pointed out that the party comp is not viable for speed running he called us noobs and rage quit *boggle*.

As a tank you should look at the party composition to gauge what the party is capable of doing test it, then push it a bit. 2 BLMs or BLM+BRD gives potential for a lot of AE. I say potential not definitive XD Also SMN, of course. WIth those in a party you have to adjust your tanking style as opposed to having more single target DDs (as mentioned earlier, DRG, MNK and for all intents and purposes, BRD also).

AE heavy comps you need to be more aware of enmity on all mobs, flash a bit more, rotate through mobs to check party enmity levels arent going too high. Whereas with single target DPSers (assuming they follow kill order) You can focus on one with the occasional flash to hold enmity on the other mobs over the healer.

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

If you happen to get the enemies attention, like others said, do not run away from the tank and if the enemy is not likely to die in the next 2-3 hits: Stop doing damage till the tank has the enemy back!

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If more people took that advice ahmahgawd! Instead of slowing down DPS and moving closer to the tank they somehow seem to step it up a notch and run around like a crazy person!

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Originally Posted by Ryihito

Have initiative.

If the healer is getting ganked, stop what you're doing, get the hate off that enemy and then take it to the tank.

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Simple logic, a dead DPS can be ressed, a dead healer is a wipe XD