As part of getting skills for my main PLD, I started levelling up CNJ/WHM pretty much purely through dungeons and guildhests. Having tanked, I knew about watching my aggro, not sticking on regen before pulls, all of the simple stuff, and everything seemed to be going absolutely swimmingly. Did a Brayflox run which was extremely chaotic, and realised that I was actually having a great time healing, and decided it would be my second relic job.
Then I came across Titan NM on duty roulette.
I know the fight pretty well having tanked it - means I can sit back and watch what's happening to everyone else. But healing it was an entirely different thing. MP problems (no Shroud of Saints due to level sync), not being able to cast Cure due to dodging, then having to pull out a Cure2 to stop the tank from dying, getting gaoled when I needed to cast a Medica... the usual stuff. I thought it was just a bad first time, but having had it on 2 more occasions/, I still haven't finished that fight alive.
Was a bit worried about going into Qarn, Cutters Cry, and the rest of dungeons (haven't done AV yet), but haven't had any major problems (apart from a tank trying a SR pull in Darkhold while I was nowhere near casting range for him) in any of them.
But now that I'm above the level for Garuda NM, I'm a bit concerned about getting it in DR for the day. Didn't have any problems with Ifrit, but I'm wondering if that was due to level synced gear.
And since the relic quest features 5 different primal fights... I just don't know if it's the right job for me.
TL;DR: Are primal fights just really tough on a healer, or am I doing something wrong? If so, what approach should I take for primals, since my usual dungeon approach just doesn't work.
Having a bit of a healing crisis.
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04-20-2014, 06:43 PMYruahri_TiaHaving a bit of a healing crisis.
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04-20-2014, 06:50 PMYumi_umi
Learn to fear the role of the healer lol.
But yes primal fights are brutal if you don't know the fight on a deeper level as playing a whm is all about knowing what to on the spot / improvising.
If you can't do that then switch to sch lol. -
04-20-2014, 07:41 PMPetriW
Titan normal is a bit special in that it gets easier as you let your DPS die.
The damage the tank takes is not really all that spectacular and most of your lost mp is due to DPS eating stuff they shouldn't. If both DPS die don't give up, the fight just got way easier! If the tank is decent they'll free you from gaols and if you're decent you had Regen on him so he'll live long enough!
Try your utmost to not cast Cure 2, it is an evil mp drain. Instead cast 2 Cure and make sure Regen is on the tank at all times. Before heart phase you only need to medica every 2-3 stomps, after it medica every time he stomps. Also medica the jumps / 2hour.
If a dps eats a weight of the land (circle on ground) use Cure to bring them up, not Cure 2. -
04-20-2014, 07:55 PMAiral
You'll get used to abusing your instant cast Regen while moving around in fights like Titan and Garuda. When you know you're out of danger for an appreciable amount of time, that's when most of the healing happens. You typically have time for one spell if you're quick between moves.
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04-21-2014, 07:55 PMYruahri_TiaMight have to try that next time! I think my main problem was that both times, we lost a DPS to landslide pretty much straight away, and I think I might have panicked about us lacking the DPS to get through the heart phase okay so I started wasting MP on Stones/Aeros on Gaols and Heart. Do you think most parties can get away with just having the tank and 1 DPS doing the damage on those parts?Quote:
Originally Posted by PetriW
First time I did it was a daily roulette when I'd literally just hit 34, so I didn't have Regen that time.
Guess I'll just spam it tonight as WHM for practice. Thanks for the tips! -
04-22-2014, 01:35 AMariaandkiaEnd game dungeons are a completely different thing (as with the primal fights) from other dungeons as a healer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yruahri_Tia
A lot of those dungeons aren't bad as long as you know what is going on. What is annoying though is that tanks almost always blames the healer for anything that goes wrong-even if the healer says it is their first time in the dungeon (and the game even says it) and the tank takes off running without any explanation (not even a - take this path at the fork since you probably can't tell where I went since your map isn't even close to done).
As for MP problems, GENERALLY, there should be no need for SoS. I have kited bosses like Titan and the first boss of Stone Vigil before. Stone Vigil I did solo first boss even. I generally will ask the bard for MP if I need mp because SoS has a long CD and I save it for emergencies. If I have to use SoS, something's wrong, a platoon of heavy grine-someone either overpulled or someone is new or someone is afk or something else went wrong. Heck, I've had parties survive with just regen and divine seal (which I only use if things are starting to get bad or if I can tell that I'll need it).
Now onto the main question: Primal fights aren't necessarily really tough on a healer so much as something you have to learn. Titan NM is fairly easy. Titan HM, however, can be tough if you don't know what is going on. For Titan HM, you will probably need some end game gear (3200 HP) because most parties will ditch you if you don't have at least that much hp (not because you can't do it with less but because the fight gets significantly harder with less).
Main thing though to is to know what will happen with primal fights.
Titan NM: Every now and then, check aggro. TRY IF YOU HAVE THE LUXURY to stay 3rd or 4th in aggro. Why? For when the tank gets OB'ed, you won't take the aggro right away. This means you can keep the party going for a little longer. Also, Aero helps with people trapped in rocks.
Garuda NM: Pretty simple since as a healer, you aren't really doing anything different from when you are a tank or dps aside from your main role being to heal.
Ifrit NM: Heal, dodge, etc.
One thing that helps with NM is learning to slide cast and to dodge->cast. Instant skills like regen or a swiftcast spell (cross class from THM) or even eye for an eye can be very useful since you can cast them while dodging. The real problem should be learning what the bosses do.
For HM primals... well, I don't have that much experience aside from Dodge->cast.
Get used to cancelling spells to dodge and then casting the moment you leave aoe range. For titan, this would be once you are outside his landslide (or bombs). For ifrit, this would be once you are out of the explosive circles (any of them) or out of the way of his dash (for HM, he has this dash where there is a line of explosive circles, he does a dash that will kill any non-tank HP player which will be 90 degrees with the explosive line (forms a sort of cross shape)). For Garuda, this would include when everyone is stacking behind a pillar or after the in+out.
Now, I'm not the best healer right now (I'm still learning how the dungeons and bosses work since nobody ever wants to explain-much easier to tell as a DPS or even a tank - DPS you don't really need to pay attention to healing (unless you are me and do that by nature), tank you kind of control the pace so you are free to do a little exploration here and there and generally people won't complain-especially with how rare tanks are), but in any dungeon that I've learned, I can generally heal very well.
I have gotten in some fights with tanks (odd that I don't pamper them like some other players?) since there are two factors that make the bulk of how well I heal. 1) Knowledge. 2) Trust/relationship. See, I play a lot of betas and first thing I do as a healer in an area that hasn't been cleared already is to scope out the area and learn as much as I can about the enemy. Using that, I build scenario triggers that allow me to "react" when things happen. That is knowledge. For trust/relationship, think of me as an NPC in a game that uses some form of relationship gauge where the better the trust between two characters are, the more powerful they become when together.
I have sacrificed tanks to save the party before because of various factors. Tank couldn't hold aggro, tank was overpulling, tank never got aggro, etc.
Why do I mention that? Get used to letting people die. While most WHMs and SCHs would disagree with me there, my thought is better to lose one person than to lose the entire party.
Now, some tanks WILL ragequit if you let them die (especially if the rest of the party lives). It can't be helped. Heck, some tanks will ragequit just because they hate the dungeon ("Copperbell again? I hate this dungeon, bye!" "Aurum Vale again? I hate this dungeon, bye!"), because we aren't their commendation farming party (Like 20 times joining the party later (after we've pretty much done the entire dungeon without a tank-unless you count my THM that tanked while healing while DPSing)), tank goes "Well, I guess I'll help you guys since I can't join the commendation party"), or because the party isn't obeying their every whim. (example: "Why did you need on that? I needed it for my white mage! Screw you, this party is inconsiderate, bye!" - on an item that was an obvious upgrade from my level 15 gear) (example 2: "Pass on all items, everything is mine. Don't agree? Good luck finding another tank." - I "accidentally" let him die on a boss ("Oh shoot, sorry, my controller died!" (never said which controller XD ) and "accidentally" needed on an item ("Oh, my bad, I didn't mean to select need by accident!" (I meant to select it on purpose XD )). Party got mad at me for making the tank leave. >.> ). Personally, it just can't be helped (And I will laugh if the tank comes here and yells at me here).
Point there being: If you want your tank to stay, you might want to go ahead and let the party wipe so that the tank can blame the party for wiping but will probably stay. If you prefer to keep as much of the party alive as possible, be prepared to have your tank ragequit. -
04-22-2014, 05:40 AMEstellios
Titan is a learning experience as it is one of the first fights that has party-wide unavoidable damage that you will have to learn not to panic and heal through. Remember, if 3 or more people are getting hit by an AOE, Medica is a lot more MP-efficient than Cure. Also as was mentioned, Regen is extremely useful in that fight so doing it right at 34 was likely why you had a hard time as not only are you missing out on better gear, you are missing out on probably one of the most powerful skills a WHM has access to.
I would give the same advice for Garuda if you heal for it, Make sure to go in at the highest level possible so you have access to more skills and more importantly some of your AF gear. -
04-22-2014, 12:16 PMNicobo
I think it would be very hard to heal if 3 of 4 in the pt are first timers.
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04-22-2014, 06:45 PMsheepysheepy
important thing is not to be disheartened, you might be thinking 'oh my god im finding normal mode primals difficult, hardmode and extremes are going to be hell'
but thats not true, normal modes can be the hardest of the lot, depends who you're with ofcourse but the thing is that people have done normal mode garuda maybe 2-3 times and they've done hardmode garuda 20-30 times, so hardmode ends up being a breeze cos everyone knows the dance -
04-23-2014, 02:09 AMYruahri_TiaThat's actually literally my thoughts on continuing healing. I figured I'd do at least one run each of CM and Prae to see how I fare on 8-man content, but all those primals for the Relic quest...Quote:
Originally Posted by sheepysheepy
But it's good to know that they are just tough fights due to level/gear sync, and inexperienced players doing it.
That's probably it - especially when nobody gives a detailed rundown before the fight. Mostly it just covers "dodge landslide, stand at the edge of the ring, dodge aoe", but doesn't say "Hey guys, please group together on tank so I can Medica". Might have to start doing the rundown for new people myself!Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicobo
But seriously, thanks for the advice guys. I don't want to give up because healing's so much fun, but sometimes it's best to quit before you get carried into content that's out of your league. -
04-23-2014, 03:18 AMariaandkia
As said earlier, one of the issues is that for the most part, there is no reason to go to normal mode. I did plenty of dungeons and even Titan (ended up kiting Titan after bard and paladin died and OB'ed (I got stoned)) with fairly low level gear. Heck, I solo'ed Stone vigil's first boss (level 41-43) with like level 25~30 gear with a few 35s). Early dungeons are pretty easy. Trials are a bit hard. End game dungeons can be hard without good gear.
What is bad is when you say you are a new healer and NOBODY tells you ANYTHING even after you ask for anything important that you should know.
Literally for most boss battles such as some end game trials:
Me: (This is my first time)
Me: Anything I should know or do for this fight?
Tank: [no response]
DPS: Just heal.
DPS2: Don't get hit.
Me: By what?
DPS2: The attacks.
Me: How do I dodge them?
DPS2: Just don't get hit.
Tank starts fight.
Party wipe because I had no idea what I was supposed to dodge and died out of confusion. (like when a certain mob AoEs you and makes you lose control (lose control, run into AoE to die)). ENTIRE 8 player party knew EXCEPT for me. Down a healer, party wipes. About 3 times. Each time: What should I do? Each time: Heal us!
Even worse is when someone overwrites my function set by giving me a command mid combat without giving me an exact command.
Example: I'm healing tank. Tank goes: USE HOLY!
So I use holy. Right there. Where I am. Because my function set that I was using just got overwritten. Tank dies. Blames me. (I am similar to a computer in a lot of ways so if I'm given a command without any preparation, I will follow it-reasons why I generally don't talk to humans near bridges or anything that could quickly do serious harm to me.)
I've had one tank that gave me really clear instructions though, that was nice.
"Use holy where I am"
Even better commands would be great except they can be hard via text.
Like one person in a game (with voice chat) gave me some nice commands. "Safely and silently head over to the tower and pull up next to the ally there." -
04-24-2014, 05:32 AMRisvertasashi
Well... I'll be bluntly honest...
I don't think HM primals and some other of the introductory 50 content is very hard but...
The 'hardcore' endgame healing (t5, t6 at times, some ex primals...)... it can be really hard and stressful, especially if your party isn't perfect. Some fights, like Leviathan EX, seem almost setup to make people blame healers, when really the problem is killing 2+ gyres right as tidal roar goes off or something...
Enough that I've thought about changing classes... but I just resubbed to another game so I'll probably just do that instead... -
04-24-2014, 03:08 PMariaandkiaHealers take a huge amount of heat even without the mechanics pushing towards the healers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Risvertasashi
Tanks are rare so despite how bad they can be, people rarely will complain to their face. In fact, tanks are practically worshipped unless they are so bad that it is clear beyond any doubt.
DPS-there are so many in the party that what one single DPS does or doesn't do generally gets overlooked.
Healers-While not as common as DPS, they are currently more common than tanks for the most part and since the party can actively see the work of the healer (their hp stays up, they don't die), when they do die, their first thought generally will be: oh, healer didn't heal me. -
04-24-2014, 03:34 PMTuleI understand what you're saying, and I get it to a point. But Holy is your ability. You should know what it does and how to do it. Maybe there are situations where your use Holy is a slightly different way than normal. Maybe some situations where explaining to you would help you position yourself better and faster. However, if they are telling you to use Holy without any further instructions you should be able to, relatively reasonably, read the situation and make an educated guess as to how to use your move in that situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by ariaandkia
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04-24-2014, 04:15 PMruskie
I often go into titan nm as a healer to have a good chuckle at all the randomness that happens in there. That said I go with a known party into each run first as a healer just to get my bearings. Hell even went full DPS in a couple of runs with a heal here and there on the tank but other than that helped beat titan with just me and the tank alive hehe.
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04-24-2014, 04:57 PMAiChyan
When I first did Titan NM i was stuck for two weeks or more, mainly because I had no regen and ran out of mp too frequently, and got land slided tons.
For your healing issues:
- keep everyone on regen, cure 1 or 2 the tank as needed
- when jumps happen have everyone get very close to you, and cast medica just as titan is falling down, so that you could heal his damage as soon as it happens, then follow up with a second medica to keep everyone full
- don't hesitate to interrupt your casts if you are about to get landslided, a late heal/raise is much better than a dead healer
- the only interruptions which you will encounter are landslides are plumes, if you find yourself moving too much rely on regen, but if need be eat a plume (just one and only if you are geared enough for it lol) and heal yourself asap after it. Really you shouldn't move much except for those two.
- regen will help your mp issues tons, but keep an x ether or something handy just in case. The only reason you would be going oom is everyone simply taking too much damage / you raising more than once / you over healing.
- swiftcast if you have it would be your life very very easy.
I found garuda nm to be easier than titan, and more difficult than garuda hm lol, I can't say if you will struggle or not. The dungeons you mentioned are easy to heal through if you know the strategies, and Qarn has been nerfed so its really easy now. Not gonna lie though, I don't want to heal AV ever again :p
Healing relies heavily on how your party is performing. If everyone is doing their jobs, and dodging properly its gonna be smooth sailing, but since you are a healer you have to be prepared for anything. You have to watch your health, everyone's, anticipate big hits, dodge stuff, watch your enmity just to make sure you get through this. -
04-24-2014, 05:10 PMFaizeD
Think of the story mode primals as an opportunity to pick up good healing habits. First avoid Cure II like the plague unless coupled with Freecure. Even in end-game content I try to rely on Cure as much as possible. If you're playing catch up on the tank and can get by with spamming Cure alongside Regen then there's no need for Cure II. The same applies to Medica - in a lot of situations it may be wiser to individually Cure or slap a Regen on DPS if you can spare the time (particularly in 4 man content). I see Medica as more of a time saver when you need to top up multiple party members and only have one GCD to do it all in.
Most important of all is to avoid overcuring. You know how much your cures heal for, and although WHM requires a bit of pre-emptive casting it's overall better to leave a tank just short of full than to overcure them. Let Regen do the rest and sit idle. Yes, idle. In higher level content you can use this time to drop dem Holies but in lower level stuff where your resources can be stretched thin, a tick or two of MP regen here and there can help a lot. So can an elixir, justsayin'