Implementing both F2P/Sub is also an option

Hey Everybody,

I was looking over some FF news on reddit this morning and came across a presentation that Yoshida did not long ago.

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1020179/Behind-the-Realm

During the presentation, Yoshida says, while talking about subscription based and F2P models, that "Implementing both is also an option" and stresses that F2P is not out of the picture for FFXIV.

That said, I know as of right now F2P is out of the picture but how do you guys feel about the potential of F2P in FFXIV?

Personally I spent a lot of time and effort playing Rift when Trion claimed it would never go F2P and then prior to it happening they laid off a large number of their good devs, including the dev lead, and the game went to complete and total shit (in my opinion).

I'm not even talking about the pay to win factor, I'm talking about the rate of change in the game drastically declining due to changes in the dev team to support the new model. I would really prefer it if FFXIV stays with the subscription model solely based on my past experiences.

I really hope that if SE is seriously considering this that they're just talking about things like Fantasia myself, I will not play a game that supports Pay-to-Win and also has a subscription model. I'm not ok with double dipping, as much as I love this game. Also, please keep in mind these are opinions and I'm just curious about what other players think about it.

Expect the unexpected.

I really don't like where the F2P model takes most games and I've been through a lot of MMOs transitioning to the F2P environment (Aion, Swtor, Tera etc).

One thing I've noticed for sure is it has always felt like content in F2P environments comes at a much slower pace and more resources are directed at cash-shop items like cosmetic items or boost. Ultimately devs behind F2P mmos do what ever they can to squeeze every dollar out of the player base by employing the "convenience for a price" design.

It really really REALLY sucks when basic features are torn out of F2P games one by one, sold separately one piece at a time, and then having them all bundled into one package and then sold as "good value" purchases for players wanting to get features that should be there in the first place regardless of F2P or sub.

For me it was actually a huge sigh of relief dealing with FFXIV so far because I know every 3 months there will be substantial updates and overall I feel like I get way more value out of my $15/m than any F2P MMOs I've played by a long shot.

I'm sure I could write a bunch more on this but I think a huge rant would follow suit. I am done with F2P games is what I am saying.

oK, i see people REALLY want the F2P model for ARR, but here's the big question.

HOW would it work for ARR?

If the game became part F2P or full F2P, then it could come to numerous things, like even longer time periods between patches or lack of content.

Also, F2P supports the game through microtransactions, but what could ARR do for microtransactions?

Only get tomes via cash? Stamina, aka limiting ones playtime and then you playing more with Buyable Cash Stamina Potions? Limited number of dungeon runs, and then more runs buyable with cash? Market Board or Retainers only useable with cash, or even Allagan Tome Armors only buyable with cash?

So many things could go wrong with the F2P model on ARR. Maybe its cause I've played the game so much that I just cant "see" it going F2P without doing anything drastic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ArkAurelius

oK, If the game became part F2P or full F2P, then it could come to numerous things, like even longer time periods between patches or lack of content.

---

This right here. Patches would definitely not happen every 3 months anymore, it's impossible to budget on a F2P and make
any kind of road map. You don't know if you are going to have to fire staff or cut back on resources month-to-month.

Wouldn't be a fun time if that had to happen, you're looking at possible 6-8 months for 1 patch if not enough people play.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Swishytail

This right here. Patches would definitely not happen every 3 months anymore, it's impossible to budget on a F2P and make
any kind of road map. You don't know if you are going to have to fire staff or cut back on resources month-to-month.

Wouldn't be a fun time if that had to happen, you're looking at possible 6-8 months for 1 patch if not enough people play.

---

LotRO and EQ/EQ2 disagree. They both still get plenty of content and both are freeium (F2P with an option of monthly sub.)

EDIT: Oh and the amount of locked out content isn't too bad. (at least IMO).

GTFO...........

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DragonFlyy

LotRO and EQ/EQ2 disagree. They both still get plenty of content and both are freeium (F2P with an option of monthly sub.)

EDIT: Oh and the amount of locked out content isn't too bad. (at least IMO).

---

While I didn't play those games after they went F2P and can't really make an argument against them, there are also a large number of MMOs that do suffer from this issue. Rift, SWTOR, and Tera for example, all of which were originally sub based games that suffered drastically in terms of released content after going with the F2P model due to cutbacks in staff.

The problem with F2P games is that first of all you can't make a proper budget because the amount of income you make fluctuates too much from month to month and secondly that dev's have to spend more time working on cash shop stuff as opposed to real content, both of which take significant amounts of time to produce.

I'm not even really that happy about being able to buy extra retainers with more money. F2P is a horrible cancer in MMORPGs, because it encourages the developers to actively make content worse -on purpose- so that they can then charge for convenience to bypass that content. There's no industry regulation, and F2P games are basically as crooked, unscrupulous and backhanded as it gets. One of the main reasons I'm playing FF14 is because it's -not- F2P, and I don't have to worry about developer$ $queezing every last ¢ent out of the players by any means necessary.

Square don't have to make this game F2P xD

Depends on how you do it. In all honesty, it's hard because the gold sellers will use tons of free accounts which could make their job harder. But story and game play wise, FFXIV would benefit from having a free option up to level 20 and the Titan fight.

I also wouldn't mind a little cash shop that sold different armors or something once in a while. But that's me. I know most people hate the idea of paying for a sub, let alone the possibility of spending more on top of it. But that is the reality. SE is leaving money on the table because they don't have a cash shop.

But what game really is Pay to win? Why even mention it? That's always a fear that never manifests in Western MMO's.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alavastre

But what game really is Pay to win? Why even mention it? That's always a fear that never manifests in Western MMO's.

---

I suppose that's a matter of opinion on the pay to win front. A lot of F2P games offer the ability to buy gear that's only 1-3 tiers below best in slot, thereby giving players with more money in real life an advantage over players who do not have extra real money to spend. Others sell items like exp boosts, gold boosts, etc. which have the same effect but on a smaller scale.

Personally, I consider those to be pay to win and that's why I mention it. I don't think that somebodies ability to play the game as effectively as somebody else should be determined by the amount of money they make in real life but more-so on the amount of time and effort they invest into the game. I'm good at IT and make good money in real life, that doesn't mean I should have an advantage over other people who make less. Last time I checked we're playing the game, not playing real life.

FF11 isn't F2P. FF14 ARR won't be F2P either.

Deal with that fact already.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Killance

FF11 isn't F2P. FF14 ARR won't be F2P either.

Deal with that fact already.

---

Did you even look the presentation over? Yoshida has an entire slide that basically says F2P isn't out of the question and that he thinks the 2 models can work together. Basically look at Rift/SWTOR/Tera/etc. and you'll see the exact model he's talking about. You can play for free but if you pay a sub you get additional services.

I think it's wonderful that you believe you can tell the future and I encourage you to continue trying but you should at least read the facts first. This is not FFXI and Yoshida also goes over the fact that they need to look at this game in a more modern sense rather than looking at the success of FFXI and trying to copy that.

Buy to play with the option to subscribe is a better option then Free to Play that way developers can work on actual content rather than micro transactions. They can make a patch every 3months and have people that b2p the game pay for major updates and the subscribers get them for paying for the sub.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

Did you even look the presentation over? Yoshida has an entire slide that basically says F2P isn't out of the question and that he thinks the 2 models can work together. Basically look at Rift/SWTOR/Tera/etc. and you'll see the exact model he's talking about. You can play for free but if you pay a sub you get additional services.

I think it's wonderful that you believe you can tell the future and I encourage you to continue trying but you should at least read the facts first. This is not FFXI and Yoshida also goes over the fact that they need to look at this game in a more modern sense rather than looking at the success of FFXI and trying to copy that.

---

Because all facts over the internet aren't exaggerated at all.

I personally like the subscription model, but I know there are those out there who refuse to play a game with a subscription due to time limitations on their end. For them, paying to play the game when they might have one or two days a month to play wouldn't be good. So I've always wondered if there was a better solution, and I've seen that Dragon Quest did something like that, to where if you weren't subbed, you could play for X amount of time per week etc.

I think something like that might work for those users, but this is a tough issue to really tackle without hard numbers. Now, the following idea has the potential to be riddled with holes, but what if SE offered everyone 24 hours (or some other number) of game time per week for free. You still would need to buy the game, and you should still sub to have that restriction lifted at any point in time. To take this to a ridiculous place, say that time could be bottled up and sold, or bought from other players using in game money. So if you're away for a while you would have game time that's yours that you can sell on the markets, or buy more time on the markets from other players. Players who have the sub, should also fine a way to benefit from this.

Again, there would have to be stipulations in place because there might be all kinds of issues, but with over 2 million registered users, I would find no fault if they were able to jump in and play every now and then.

Just a random and crazy thought. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

Did you even look the presentation over? Yoshida has an entire slide that basically says F2P isn't out of the question and that he thinks the 2 models can work together.

---

In the presentation/interview, he was basically answering questions of "What do you think about F2P?" Meaning he is giving his opinion on F2P. His opinion is, F2P isn't out of the question, depends if the "money is there" and " If the masses want such a thing".

As of right now, they are making too much money off of P2P and, most people don't want this game to go F2P in terms of how the forums are reacting to it. The forums are also their only source of information of statistics about this.

The end results as of this moment is, P2P is here to stay.

If they go F2P I will just go elsewhere.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

Snip

---

I am of mixed feelings on this front. What advantage do you really have in a PVE environment?

Hypothetically, let's pretend that anyone could buy i100 gear with real money. Now, since you said you make good money, lets pretend that you decide to buy a full set of i100 gear. I decide that I can't afford it and so I decide to get i100 gear by farming tomes over the course of a few weeks. Am I at a disadvantage? Is there content that you can do that I cannot? Does you having i100 on April 3rd alter my ability to play the game and enjoy it? Does me having i100 on June 7th alter your ability to play the game and enjoy it? There already exist players that get different sets of gear at different times, I don't understand how this is any different.

If this had open world, gank anyone, anytime PVP I could see this being a problem, but as it is now, that isn't an issue. RMT, as it is now, would also disappear because they would have nothing to offer that you couldn't get legitimately.

The other things you mentioned, exp boosts, gold boosts, etc. just seem like time-savers. If I have limited time, but more funds, I can keep up with those that have more time and less cash.

All that said, I am not for P2W or non-cosmetic (fantasia?) microtransactions for this game, since that isn't what I signed up for. Just have a hard time understanding the vitriol the model gets.

Ugh, when will people stop contemplating this? SE chose the method that will work for them to keep this game going and updated, if you don't like paying for it, then play another game. Simple as that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by L-D-Omlette

Hypothetically, let's pretend that anyone could buy i100 gear with real money. Now, since you said you make good money, lets pretend that you decide to buy a full set of i100 gear. I decide that I can't afford it and so I decide to get i100 gear by farming tomes over the course of a few weeks. Am I at a disadvantage? Is there content that you can do that I cannot? Does you having i100 on April 3rd alter my ability to play the game and enjoy it? Does me having i100 on June 7th alter your ability to play the game and enjoy it? There already exist players that get different sets of gear at different times, I don't understand how this is any different.

---

You think there's toxic/elitist attitude now?

Wait until all the Call of Duty rich kids get their parents to buy them a full set of iLvl 100 armor and
they do nothing but spit in your face all day/flaunt/brag about it. I'd rather not play a game where
any 13-year-old with rich parents can do -literally- nothing but swipe a credit card and have everything
at the drop of a hat. That breeds nothing but bad. =/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vespar

Ugh, when will people stop contemplating this? SE chose the method that will work for them to keep this game going and updated, if you don't like paying for it, then play another game. Simple as that.

---

This pretty much sums it up for me. If this game ever took the route of F2P or offering gear/weapons in a cash shop, I'd simply walk away.

Please SE, don't kill this game. NO F2P. It will bring nothing good.

Vanity would be $0.99-$4.99 a cube depending on level. That would be interesting... Also vanity would now give +2-10 extra stats ON TOP of the base gears stats.

Our inventories would be one page BUT you can pay $9.99 for another page. You can pay $5.99 for better gathering chance OR $15.99 for a bundle of high teir HQ gathering/farming items (items10 stcks a piece).

Drop rates for items would be lowered but you can pay $6.99 for better rates.

$12.99 will give you better atma drops.

Upgrading to +10 equipment will be a thing. 4+ will have extremely high chances of breaking your gear permenently though. BUT $4.99 will make your gear not break for 5 tries.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

Hey Everybody,

I was looking over some FF news on reddit this morning and came across a presentation that Yoshida did not long ago.

.........snip

That said, I know as of right now F2P is out of the picture but how do you guys feel about the potential of F2P in FFXIV?

Personally I spent a lot of time and effort playing Rift when Trion claimed it would never go F2P and then prior to it happening they laid off a large number of their good devs, including the dev lead, and the game went to complete and total shit (in my opinion).

....snip

---

I played Rift for a year before it was released as I was in Alpha. I loved that game, I loved the devs, I gave it a chance when it went ftp, but left soon after with over 6 months of sub left. I really, really hope FFXIV doesn't go ftp, because then I'll have to find another subscription model game to play.

Why on earth has my avatar changed...I'm a Lalafell !!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by L-D-Omlette

I am of mixed feelings on this front. What advantage do you really have in a PVE environment?

---

I can see what you're saying and the honest answer is that the only advantage they get over you personally is time. I have to agree with you from one perspective because I play these games for fun and if it takes a few weeks to get something I enjoy doing it.

On the other hand, for competitive players that put a lot of effort into something, it's an insult and begins to feel like a waste of time if somebody can just go to the cash shop and buy that item you just spent days/weeks obtaining for $10, especially if you're a player that can't actually use the cash shop due to financial reasons.

All the cash shop does is add another layer of segregation between the rich and the poor, it basically says to the players that "it doesn't matter how much time/effort you put into the game as long as you're rich in real life" and I think the last thing we need is more disparity between the rich and the poor, especially in games which are supposed to be fun, but that's my opinion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starlord

In the presentation/interview, he was basically answering questions of "What do you think about F2P?" Meaning he is giving his opinion on F2P. His opinion is, F2P isn't out of the question, depends if the "money is there" and " If the masses want such a thing".

As of right now, they are making too much money off of P2P and, most people don't want this game to go F2P in terms of how the forums are reacting to it. The forums are also their only source of information of statistics about this.

The end results as of this moment is, P2P is here to stay.

---

Basically this, i don't see how so many people fail to understand it.
It's a game developers conference he's there to give a talk/lecture to share his experience/opinions on MMO development, not to give insight into the future payment model of his game..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pibz

Basically this, i don't see how so many people fail to understand it.
It's a game developers conference he's there to give a talk/lecture to share his experience/opinions on MMO development, not to give insight into the future payment model of his game..

---

I can't agree with this, you're basically saying that people shouldn't worry about the head honcho saying that F2P is not out of the picture and that models where subscriptions and F2P work together are an option for this game.

If Yoshida says it's an option then it's an option they're considering. I'm sorry but last time I checked he calls the shots, not the people who think they can tell the future on these forums. If F2P is a potential option for the future of FFXIV I think it's something worth discussing. Whether you agree or not is really just your opinion but other people seem to be equally concerned. Nobody is failing to understand anything, it's just you guys failing to see why people are concerned, we're all well aware this isn't going to happen any time soon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Swishytail

This right here. Patches would definitely not happen every 3 months anymore, it's impossible to budget on a F2P and make
any kind of road map. You don't know if you are going to have to fire staff or cut back on resources month-to-month.

Wouldn't be a fun time if that had to happen, you're looking at possible 6-8 months for 1 patch if not enough people play.

---

I know of three games off the top of my head that prove you wrong:

Lord of the Rings Online (hybrid F2P/Subscription model)
Champions Online (hybrid F2P/Subscription model)
Star Trek Online (hybrid F2P/Subscription model)

LotRO has had 4 FULL-SIZED expansions since it went F2P and numerous smaller free patches in between.
Star Trek Online gets new Seasons with new content constantly (it also recently got a full-sized expansion with an entirely new faction and restructuring of the original two factions), and Champions Online gets new 'Issues' with new content.

Oh, and I just thought of a fourth: The Secret World.

You can have a F2P game that doesn't sell actual gear in its market. Cosmetics, new mounts, collectible items, etc can still make a crapton of money.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Swishytail

Snip

---

This brings up another thing I don't understand. Why do people feel the need to brag about stuff they have, or can do in a game. If people in my FC or friends list accomplish a goal they have, I am happy for them, but that's only because I have a personal connection to them. I don't understand this need to "show off" in a digital world, or the real world for that matter.

Also, why should I give any weight to what a bunch of brats think? I don't play with a-holes now, why would I in that environment?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

Snip

---

I want to be clear that I am not hoping that this game moves to that model, but I am interested in the discussion.

I agree that creating a disparity between player groups is a bad thing. I imagine if someone took these things into account at the onset of development they could implement some interesting counter measures.

I can't really speak to the competitive aspect, but if I were into that sort of gameplay, I suspect I would either redefine the rules of engagement, or not place myself into something that wasn't a fair playing field. One wouldn't play basketball w/ baseball rules w/o changing the game :)

Granted that couldn't apply if the model were to change suddenly, to which I could understand the frustration.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheRogueX

[snip]

---

The Secret World isn't F2P, it's B2P, like Guild Wars 2. You pay $30 for the game, and then it's free to play, with a cash shop and an optional subscription.

Actually I do think TSW does the cash shop thing just about as right as you can, since nearly everything in there is cosmetic... Wait, let me log in and check the item shop before I say anything more.

Okay so there are XP boosts, items that let you access bank from anywhere, items that remove weekly lockouts (!), healing potions, extra inventory/bank slots, packs of quests/dungeons (when I actively played this game, you got these free with your active sub), and.... tons of cosmetic stuff.

Honestly, I've played F2P games where I felt like if I wasn't spending money in the cash shop I couldn't get anything done in the game (looking at Runes of Magic, Neverwinter, etc) but TSW and GW2 never felt like that.

Just say No to F2P.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Calyanare

The Secret World isn't F2P, it's B2P, like Guild Wars 2. You pay $30 for the game, and then it's free to play, with a cash shop and an optional subscription.

---

F2P and B2P are one in the same to me except you have too pay a one time fee for B2P. I personally don't see much difference outside of that. You could say FFXIV ARR is B2P w/ subs

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alish

Snip

---

Couldn't agree with this more. Square should stick with the subscription model. F2P in MMO's almost always ends up becoming Pay-to-Win and for me that ruins the game.

I don't really think we are in danger of this happening though; for example, FFXI still uses the subscription model.

If they did dropped the price down some on FFXI, I would play both I am not paying 30 bucks a month for both games when you get less time on another.

4.99 FFXI would be ideal, +1 dollar for characters but other than that I won't play both.

FFXIV main

FFXI would be something to do on downtime or when I capped.

i hope it never goes F2P i like to feel like my money is gonna go towards some more updates if ur gonna do F2P then just do what WoW did and make it so u can only get to LV 20