Offtanking Garuda X

Hello,

I killed Garuda X once so far as a Tank, being MT at that time.
I only fail big time when it comes to OT in the last phase. I just seem to can't get it right with the goddamned Spiny. I follow MrHappys startegy, because so far every PuG did it.

Chirada and Spiny comes up.
Spiny doesn't have me as target.
I tomahawk Chirada and provoke Spiny.
I get 2 Stacks, Chirada still lives.
MT provokes Spiny.
Chirada dies. I still have cooldown on provoke for about 5 seconds.
MT has 2 Stacks, Garuda and Suprana.

What the HECK am I supposed to provoke now?
I provoke Spiny, MT still has Suprana and Garuda and, chances are, dying.
Wow OT sucks. Kick.
I provoke Suprana, as I so often saw in videos and guides and what not (which aren't really helpful when it comes to tanking, those guides are always in the ideal situation, FC-mates, vocal communication, etc).
MT gets 3 Stacks, wipe.
Wow OT sucks. Kick.

If it's really my fault, ok, here I am, seeking help.
But IS it? In my eyes MT provoked Spiny too early, I can't recall how many stacks I had, Chirada was at 50% so I assume I just got the second stack at that moment.
Everytime Chirada dies, I still have cooldown on provoke. So chances are, that as mentioned above, MT has Garuda, Suprana and Spiny and gets 3 stacks, since I can't provoke Spiny (or Suprana??) back to me. Is this even the way it supposed to be? That I have to provoke Spiny at the start of the phase?

Maybe I should just play a DD, playing Tank without a friendly FC makes you pretty much the unwanted inexperienced idiot who is permanently missing the boat.

After your tank buddy gets the 2nd stack, you still have a fair amount of time before the 3rd stacks actually hits. Your provoke WILL HAVE cooled down by then. That is a known fact and has never changed.

If your provoke is still on CD like you said, then it's highly likely your tank buddy provoked it a stack too early.

AND ALSO,

It really doesn't matter who the spiny goes to when the phase begins, just watch whoever has aggro on the spiny (be it tank healer or dps), wait till it has 2 stacks, provoke it over, and you're good to go. It's easier if the spiny falls on the healer or dps.

You don't need to provoke Spiny immediately if it isn't on you. Let whoever has it first build the 2 stacks. Spiny is slow as hell about attacking so Provoke is almost def up for it. Unless people are actively wresting Spiny or the Sisters off you, you shouldn't be having an issue. Do note that Spiny doesn't always start on a tank, which can be a lifesaver. If Spiny spawns near me as a WHM, I'll often walk up to it so I can be the one building stacks first, and then when OT provokes off me, I hit Shroud just to be sure I don't earn 3. If a DPS gets it first they can just ignore it entirely because they almost def won't be earning aggro after the Provoke.

Thank you for the answers.

So I understand that I don't need to provoke Spiny at the start of the phase.
Which means, I have to provoke it of the person who has the 2 stacks, around the time when Chirada dies.
But then how do I get Suprana off MT? Do I have to just stand in my corner with spiny and wait for Phase 3 restart? Do I EVEN get Suprana?
It is so confusing to me, because in every guide so far I saw the OT taking Suprana after Chirada dies, but this comes in conflict with the Spiny/provoke cooldown thing in so many times.

It is a judgment call that you will have to make during the fight. I've had times where our OT never touches Suparna, and MT and healers just have to be smarter about double Wheels. This is especially common during tornado phase where its easier for OT to get to the caster pile than to the MT's spot. Suparna will def not be lasting long either way so just as long as a big mistake isn't being made (like a Spiny being sniped to death by an egi) you're probably doing enough.

People fight Garuda X using a poor strategy, which makes it hardest for both the MT and OT. MrHappys strategy is fine for that group, but not for the general population.
However, if you try to suggest a more reliable method (like the Triangle strategy, which is almost identical to how Garuda HM works where MT has Garuda, OT has red/Suparna [and provokes spiny at 2 stacks], and DPS kill green/Chirada first), people get mad. They like failing the way that they saw in that video or telling tanks to "get better", even though there's an easier way.

If you keep at it, eventually you'll get lucky using the dumb method. :)

^ That's a good point. My group also doesn't use the MrHappy method. In general, whichever sister is on the MT should be the one dying first, because they still have Garuda. I don't understand why people would think differently.

You don't have to pick up Suprana.
The only time I feel the OT should grab Suprana is if the MT is picking up Spiny after Chirada dies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pots_Talos

The only time I feel the OT should grab Suprana is if the MT is picking up Spiny after Chirada dies.

---

Which gets provoke a cooldown, preventing you from getting Spiny back, should MT get 2 stacks, depending on strategy.

I think I will just stick with the method that I won't provoke Spiny at the beginning of P4, only after the specific person gets 2 stacks and let the MT have Suprana and Garuda until restart. If the phase takes longer and MT has Suprana/Garuda/Spiny, so be it. Makes the most sense to me.

Yeah as mentioned MrHappy's guide does not recommend the safest method of dealing with the sisters. 2 way into 3 way really is the optimal way of doing the fight.

You should never really need to use Provoke in this fight apart from when you want aggro on the Spiny.

For the first Sisters spawn do it as a 2 way:
-MT at 1 With Garuda and Sup
-OT at 5/6 with Chirada

For subsequent sister spawns
-Tank takes Garuda to 1/2
-DPS take Chirada to 5 (or 7 actually) and burn/LB her down
-OT Takes Suparna to 10/11
-Let the Spiny go to whoever it wants to
-If it's on a healer or the MT, the OT should pull it at 2 stacks
-If it's on the OT, the MT should pull it at 2 stacks

The only catch with this method is Suparna and Garuda swapping places.

One thing that the DPS and both tanks should know how to do is dodge slipstream. I.e. when you see slipstream start casting simply run through Garuda/Sup/Chirada.

As was mentioned before me
The way I usually do it, keeping in mind that mt has to be decently geared and experienced in CD rotation, is the following
This is ofcourse at tornado phase
My pulls suprana and Garuda to 10, ot pulls Chirada to 4 , let the spiny go to whomever it wants
Dps should down Chirada fast, by that time whomever has spiny be it healer, Dps or mt should have 2 stacks or just about to get 2 stacks. Voke spiny off him, if u don't have voke for some reason use 2 uncomboed BB or ROH, it should do it, take spiny with u to 4. Dps then should down sup pretty fast and healers can concentrate on mt

You have around 13-15 seconds between each stack , just let spiny go to whoever it wants to go then provoke it once that person has 2 stacks. Only time you should be worried with spiny is eye of the storm thing where you need to keep it out the way of AoE

I see this problem a lot with OTs.

you DO NOT have to provoke or Tomahawk Spiny during start of Tornado phase. Anybody can have Spiny, just make sure you provoke it whenever it generates 2 stacks on anybody.

TAKE NOTE whether you take spiny Early or Later on, you may be royally screwed if Spiny goes to a healer as they have no choice but to produce enmity. ALSO, note that using Bloodbath, Thrill of Battle, Inner Beast, or anything that Generates HP when spiny switch is happening will make it harder to provoke and keep.

Sounds like the DPS was slow and you don't need to grab the Spiney for that phase.

Make sure to build up a Rage of Halone or Butchers combo off Garuda prior to that phase.
1 when Garuda appears while you're in the bubble.
2 When she spawns after Aerial Blast
3 Will be on your Sister.

This will ensure the DPS can pound on her whole you're running into position. Which means a smoother run.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrDiezel

you DO NOT have to provoke or Tomahawk Spiny during start of Tornado phase.

---

After tanking this fight tons of time in 2.1 whether to farm or help FC, I just find it safer to provoke Spiny during start of Tornado phase. This makes sure OT won't have the stack when the Eye phase start (Spiny only has time to apply 4 stacks during Tornado phase) and OT try to provoke it away so DPS can AOE the plumes down and allow even the worst melee DPS to do their jobs almost full-time if you bother to provoke Suparna away from MT. It's easy enough to do to that I have 2 macros illustrating how you do it on WAR/PLD.
WAR: Maim combo when Garuda lands for Shriek -> Heavy Swing Garuda when she comes back -> Skull Sunder & Butcher's Block Suparna -> Provoke Spiny -> Tomahawk Spiny -> Overpower/Flash as needed -> Aggro sealed.
PLD: Fight or Flight -> Fast Blade Garuda after feathers -> Savage Blade & Rage of Halone Suparna -> Provoke Spiny -> Shield lob Spiny -> Flash as needed -> Circle of Scorn -> Aggro sealed.
Never have anything run away from me using those two.

Ive always done it with a completely different strat than you all apparently.

Suparna dies first EVERY time.
In eye phase, MT provokes spiney initially (this keeps spiney out of most of the pack so they can be aoe'd down)
OT Vokes spiney off MT ~15 secs after 1 stack (this ensures voke is off CD in next phase)
In tornado phase, MT takes Sup and Gar NE, OT takes chirada SW, spiney falls where ever.
After 2 stacks, OT takes spiney. Spiney will be killed before OT gets to 3 stacks.

Easy. Not a lot of tank swapping (unless spiney initially goes to one of the tanks).

We always go with spiny on OT or heal first. Then MT provokes it right after (D)WW. After that OT provokes Suprana (obviously Chirada should be dead around that time) and doesn't need to think about spiny at all because Garuda will jump before MT can get 3 stacks as she jumps on timer. And debuff wears off before spiny can reach MT at the next phase.

I find it easier because: melee don't need to dodge WW, nobody needs to watch stacks as spiny is taken after an event that MT is unlikely to miss: DWW.

Though probably melee will have less downtime if they jump to Suprana...

I like this ^

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by blowfin

Yeah as mentioned MrHappy's guide does not recommend the safest method of dealing with the sisters. 2 way into 3 way really is the optimal way of doing the fight.

You should never really need to use Provoke in this fight apart from when you want aggro on the Spiny.

For the first Sisters spawn do it as a 2 way:
-MT at 1 With Garuda and Sup
-OT at 5/6 with Chirada

For subsequent sister spawns
-Tank takes Garuda to 1/2
-DPS take Chirada to 5 (or 7 actually) and burn/LB her down
-OT Takes Suparna to 10/11
-Let the Spiny go to whoever it wants to
-If it's on a healer or the MT, the OT should pull it at 2 stacks
-If it's on the OT, the MT should pull it at 2 stacks

The only catch with this method is Suparna and Garuda swapping places.

---

The problem with this strategy isn't the execution but the fact NO ONE is willing to do it.
Everytime you suggest it you're met with "???" "Huh?" and "What's that?"
And trying to explain that it's the exact same thing as HM with a twist is like trying to teach a wall the alphabet

Mr.Happy's method relies on a well-picked group with communication, a DF group and even a PF group won't have that. DF even more so if you get stuck with melee as the entire DPS who are hesitant to go over to the MT, so the OT is forced to voke the Spiny AND Suparna to get things done and there's a 90% chance of a screw up doing that because of Provoke's CD and the MT can accidentally hit Suparna, thus wiping the group.
But people refuse to see this and blame the OT.

I was just in a group with 3 melee and a bard where I was asked, "Why didn't you voke Suparna?"
Umm cause it's on CD? And then you suggest, "Maybe you should just go over?"
"Why don't you just pull sucky tank!" And suddenly you're the one with the bad rep

what kind of MT are you going with, I never have a problem holding both ruda and surpana in that phase just need to time CDs with wicked wheel

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JimanR

Hello,
Chirada and Spiny comes up.
Spiny doesn't have me as target.
I tomahawk Chirada and provoke Spiny.
I get 2 Stacks, Chirada still lives.
MT provokes Spiny.
Chirada dies. I still have cooldown on provoke for about 5 seconds.
MT has 2 Stacks, Garuda and Suprana.

What the HECK am I supposed to provoke now?

---

dont worry about where spiny goes just watch the stacks and grab at 2 from whoever
if its on u first cool, if not, no biggie

if it is on u, chirada dies, mt provokes, and gets to 1 stack i go help dps sup/guda and just heavy swing/fast blade > skull sunder/savage blade garuda or suparna and then butchers block/rage of halone spiney and run away using shield lob/tomahawk