I'll start off here by admitting that i'm still quite new to the game, new to tanking, and new to mmo's in general. Reading advice from more experienced tanks on these boards has helped me make it to where I am, so in all likelihood I'm "preaching to the choir" here, but here goes...
I main a paladin, but because I enjoy a slower progression, crafting my own gear, etc, and tanks seem to level crazy-fast so I also have a Whm. Both are at 40 for now. When I heal, I've noticed a trend (a growing trend?) of gladiators and paladins not initiating their pull with shield lob. Instead, they saunter up to a random piece of trash, auto attack, wait for the mob to slowly convene on them and then start spamming flash. Sometimes, they even stop flashing after only one and start their RoH combo.
(It should probably be noted that I have not encountered this problem with marauders and warriors because they have Overpower, and well, it is awesome, but I digress...)
This method always seems to cause problems for the party. I have to wait for the trash to convene on the tank so flash will encompass the entire mob. All the while they are taking hits, so when they've finally generated enough hate that a cure doesn't pull them, I can barely pop cure fast enough to keep them up. DPS is always pulling hate no matter how carefully they attack. While these problems are nothing but obnoxious in the very low level dungeons, when I hit Brayx LS and higher they caused some major issues.
When I tank I always pull with shield lob, and here are a few of the reasons why:
1) I have far more control over where the engagement takes place -
a) By using shield lob, I can make the mobs come to me, as opposed to me picking a piece of trash and engaging it at it's location.
b) This also helps the mobs arrive at the point of my choosing closer to the same time. I know we're talking about seconds and half-seconds here, but doesn't every difference make a difference?
C) I don't waste precious Flash MP trying to pull trash that is not in the Flash AOE. This always seems to contribute to the GLA or PLD running out, or running very low, on mp throughout the battle, sometimes when it really counts. If I Flash after the shield lob pull, my Flash hits the whole mob and gives me maximum mileage for the MP I spend.
d) Though I haven't gotten to the point of doing SR's yet, my reading suggests that point b) and C are even more important if I'm trying to pull several groups to a single point. I have to get the mobs where I want them long before I start spending my limited MP on Flash.
(I don't know if CoS alters this strategy since I don't even have it yet, but I wouldn't think so. Please weigh in with advice or corrections if I'm wrong.)
2) When I shield lob I generate first-strike enmity, at least on target #1 -
a) Even if we assume that I don't take the time to mark target #1, DPS can easily see which target takes a shield-lob to the clavicle. This allows both DPS to focus on one target that has taken a significant enmity strike from the tank. As DPS moves to engage, the tank's gcd finishes and the flashing can start and the healer can start healing, or regen, or even keeping up stoneskin if the tank has high enough HP.
b) While the DPS is working on a target that already has good threat generation, I can move into RoH combo and use RoH finisher on target #2, #3, and/or #4 and all but cement myself as the enemy target. (peppering Flash in between Savage Blade and RoH, of course)
c) Even if DPS decide to open with AOE, I haven't wasted MP on the pull, the mobs are safe within flash range, and I can flash once to offset each of their AOE bursts. Then, because of the lob, they can move straight to target #1 and still not have to worry too much about pulling hate because of the first-strike enmity I gained.
3) It's practically free -
a) By the time the mobs convene (because you are in control of where the engagement happens), the gcd is finished or almost finished.
b) because of a) You can Flash right at the first hit, or even before.
c) by the time you're done Flashing, half or more of the TP you spent on the lob is back.
Now, none of this is to say that overeager DPS and healers that cast before the pull don't still cause problems. But I don't understand why a tank wouldn't at least try to find a place in his/her toolbox for all of his/her tools. Shield Lob has always served me well. It makes things smoother, imo, and unless I derp! I very rarely loose aggro. Also, I'm not saying that my way is necessarily the right way, or the only way to tank. I understand that some people may only be running a GLD or PLD for the bonuses, or to pick up cross-class skills like provoke. But even then, I just wonder. Why not?
Have others encountered this when playing other classes? Am I just having bad luck? Or am I just wrong about my assessment of Shield Lob? I'd love to hear what some of you have to say.
in defense of shield lob...
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04-16-2014, 01:23 AMLaeshain defense of shield lob...
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04-16-2014, 01:36 AMLord_Zlatan
it depends on what you are doing honestly.
in 4 man content, especially before 50, shield lob is pretty much your only pulling technique. you pull the mobs, they gather and by the time that happens (like you said) you are ready to flash.
What you are referring to is what people usually do for speed running stuff where they run in-between mobs and use flash to pull them and just keep running. you never really want to do this unless the objective is to gather up multiple packs of mobs. you don't want them to "gather" in the beginning because you don't want them hitting you until you have pulled all 8-9 mobs. then its just a matter of AoEing them to death.
anyway.
your doing it right, don't worry about the effectiveness of shield lob... its perfectly fine for what you are doing ^^ -
04-16-2014, 11:48 PMlyndwyrm
+1 to what Zlatan said.
I don't know why I've seen so many tanks face pull or pull with flash, but I have seen something like what you've mentioned. I normally attribute it to GLA/MRD that haven't done their lv15 class quest and don't have the ability (I know this is the case for some because I've asked), but if they're PLD/WAR, they should most often be pulling with shield lob/tomahawk because they have to have those abilities. There are some cases where pulling with a combo'd skill, flash, or provoke is useful, but in most instances, yes shield lob should be the go-to ability for the reasons you mentioned. -
04-17-2014, 12:07 AMSpoekes
If pulling with shield lob or not, the mobs will come running to you anyway and you will have to time your flash to hit all of them at best.
So there is not really the difference imho.
The difference with shield lob is, that you have a higher initial aggro on your first target (commonly marked 1), when you use it to pull and then flash.
So yeah, your doing it right, some people are just lazy -
04-17-2014, 12:22 AMZDamned
Anyone who thinks Shield Lob is worthless is a bad player. =P
Shield Lob is a good way to say "This is the target you guys should be focusing on first! hit him prease!! NOT THAT GUY!!!! FINE, YOU TANK THAT GUY! >.<"
PS: Don't try to learn too much from tanks who are leveling up. Chances are, they are still learning themselves.
If you want to learn from example, watch what tanks do in the new Amdapoor. -
04-17-2014, 12:31 AMSpoekesHe does not have that choice, he stated he is about Level 40 :-PQuote:
Originally Posted by ZDamned
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04-17-2014, 12:39 AMZDamnedHe has his White Mage at the same level, I think 10 more down the road is worth something, and would be valuable to teach him some higher end tools if he is going to start posts about what is good and bad on a forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoekes
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04-17-2014, 12:47 AMFluttersnipe
Never seen a tank not use a lob to initiate a group pull, though I play a tank as a main with a dps alt, so I'd see it less than some.
I've always used lob against my closest target, that way the GCD has a chance to finish, and I can follow up with a flash or circle of scorn. -
04-17-2014, 02:04 AMSagittarian
The only time I *don't* shield lob/tomahawk is when I'm pounding the button trying to figure out why it isn't working only to eventually realize I don't have anything targeted...
Circle Of Scorn is off the gcd, so it doesn't really affect the rotation. You just hit it right after flash when everything is in range.
It also helps to pop fight or flight at the beginning for that extra damage/aggro boost. -
04-17-2014, 03:12 AMMarxam
Probably those people who tank and just run up to mobs and flash probably watched videos or other tanks so. For me I know the range of flash so I can run up to mobs and be sure to grab all if not most plus the healer and dps know whats up so they don't attack/heal making my job of grabbing aggro easier.
However when I play on my dps I am noticing a trend of tanks running and waiting for their auto attack to go off then flash or OP. Im not sure where this is coming from but it needs to stop as that is not how you tank. Imagine if the same person did that in end game content. Other players will get angry at them for not playing their class properly then they will come on the forums and flood it with "this community is turning toxic" threads -
04-17-2014, 03:30 AMSpookyGhost
Everyone I've seen that doesn't use Shield Lob/Tomahawk just hasn't done their lvl 15 class quest. lol
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04-17-2014, 01:54 PMLaesha
Sorry if I sound precocious with my post. I don't mean to come across as condescending by telling people what I think is good or bad. I just know that reading these forums has helped me learn a ton, and I wanted to contribute my thoughts on Shield Lob. Thanks for the advice though. With as fast as I'm leveling I'm sure I'll be able to slip into Amdapoor in a few more weeks. Like ZDamned said, it's only 10 levels down the road. I could even check out some Youtubers in the mean time. And thanks for weighing in.
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04-18-2014, 04:17 AMDarske
When I tank, I find Shield Lob to be super useful. For example, while Provoke sets you to the top of the selected enemy's enmity, it's very easy for a careless DPS to hit it after you provoke and take hate again. So, I always follow up a Provoke with a Shield Lob. Even if the enemy has run away from me towards the DPS a bit, Shield Lob hits it from a range, generates hate, and pulls it back towards me so that I can hit it and build more enmity.
I'm sure there are other creative uses for it outside of just pulling that I haven't discovered yet, but this works well for me. -
04-18-2014, 05:15 AMlxSchUsing flash to pull is a common practice during high and expert roulette speed runs (which are very popular), so people may be just repeating what they usually do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laesha
In the low level roulette having a bad/new dps/healer is more common than good ones. If you get summoners they will probably use their 600+ potency aoes anyway (and start casting before you attack), also very common for scholars. Most of healers don't watch if you established enmity on all targets (because this is something they learn in WP) and start healing as soon as they notice someone's hp has dropped.