[dev1016] Redundant Raw Materials (or: Why Do I Need 12 Slots of Raw Iron?)

As far as I can tell, there is currently no function being served by having three different forms of raw iron (Limonite, Iron Ore, and Iron Sand). This is a headache for inventory management during mining, and is exacerbated by having four different qualities of each material. This is also an issue with silver and gold, but iron stands out in particular.

I realize the HQ variety is a bigger issue for gathering as a whole, and I do sincerely hope we can get the NQ/+3 change that was implemented for drops already. However, I would also like to see the redundant material issue addressed. These things combined, I feel, would greatly ease inventory problems for gatherers and would be much simpler for everyone than adding another retainer or increasing bag sizes again, both of which put more load on the servers.

If somebody out there actually likes things as they are please feel free to speak up. I'd very much like to know whether or not everyone shares this view.

Thank you.

They offer different rank recipes and later on might be used in different recipes (like darksteel only using iron ores). Also, for gathering purposes, some are easier to obtain than others, making them actually different materials that just happen to, right now, only craft the same thing because they are only used in one recipe.

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Originally Posted by Lienn

They offer different rank recipes and later on might be used in different recipes (like darksteel only using iron ores). Also, for gathering purposes, some are easier to obtain than others, making them actually different materials that just happen to, right now, only craft the same thing because they are only used in one recipe.

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Smelting appears to be the same rank regardless of material from what I've seen. I am aware that the gather rates/difficulty are set differently for each material one right now but I think there are solutions to that other than the current system. I also think strained inventory trumps that concern. Regardless, thanks for weighing in, as that would definitely need to be taken into consideration.

In real life you can make iron from anything that possesses iron ore within it. By giving us multiple ways to create iron ore it makes it more realistic. Also what Raikki said, some are easier to obtain then others, and some synths are easier/ harder depending on rank but I think they took this out or if the smelting book negates this. I just know people without the book have a harder time on some smelts than others. So it gives you more options.

Also if there were only one make to make a metal/alloy, then people could monopolize that ore and keep the prices inflated. This was one of the smarter things they did economically.

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Originally Posted by zaviermhigo

In real life you can make iron from anything that possesses iron ore within it. By giving us multiple ways to create iron ore it makes it more realistic. Also what Raikki said, some are easier to obtain then others, and some synths are easier/ harder depending on rank but I think they took this out or if the smelting book negates this. I just know people without the book have a harder time on some smelts than others. So it gives you more options.

Also if there were only one make to make a metal/alloy, then people could monopolize that ore and keep the prices inflated. This was one of the smarter things they did economically.

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While I'm open to lots of points of view, this makes no sense at all. How would merging iron sand and limonite together with iron ore allow people to "corner the market" on it? There would be just as much of it available as before, and it's an extremely abundant resource in the first place.

I'm currently losing 20 slots of primary inventory just to partial stacks of iron and silver any time I go mining. Should 2 resources really take 20 slots to gather? Should I have to stash nearly all of my gear for other classes on a retainer to be able to gather, making it a chore to switch between gathering and combat? Is the supposed "realism" of being able to derive iron from 3 redundant materials worth that headache?

Sorry to go off on you like that, but that kind of reply is frustrating from someone who hasn't experienced the problem. Wild theory and speculation not grounded in the reality of the game is not going to fix the inventory management problems of gathering.

If it was up to me, I'd consolidate those 3 iron materials into one item (just iron ore). The OP is right, there's no good reason why there have to be 3 separate materials that make iron nuggets. It just adds confusion and inventory bloat.

Well, i can see yor point since i do mine, log and fish often. However i wouldn't merge them all in one. I like the way they are because they're split into several dificulty for gathering and crafting. Also, with the promisses regarding gathering it is expect for us to be able to focus on a certain material, drastically lowering the ramdon trash we get while aiming a certain item.

There are 2 points i'd certainly do though...i'd merge all HQ versions into one item (Like a "High-quality silver ore" replacing all +1, +2 and +3 silver ores), leaving +1, +2 and +3 only for equipments...and i'd split the inventory in 2 of 80 slots, separating equipments from main inventory.

I can understand all you said...i'm often with around 65~70 slots of equipment, which make things really complicated when i decide gathering...but IMO merging different items is not a good way of fixing it...it would be the same as merging rose-pink and floral-pink moss into one "pink moss"...it just would make no sense at all. ^^:

The same goes for crafted materials. Woodworkers can make about 10 different handles with one recipe, and each handle is used in one recipe... so for them to be able to sell handles they need to know who is looking to make what and which handles are worth the most... Not to mention that the crafters who need the handles need to worry about how rare their handle is, and whether it's worth it to just try and find a woodcrafter to make them some handles specifically for whatever they are trying to make...

It's a big mess. Especially given how much cross over there is in crafting anyway. You need this glue, and these nails, and that handle, and that blade, and this color of this kind of leather strips.

Just means one person can't sell everything. Not everyone minds the "mess". I for one don't.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

The same goes for crafted materials. Woodworkers can make about 10 different handles with one recipe, and each handle is used in one recipe... so for them to be able to sell handles they need to know who is looking to make what and which handles are worth the most... Not to mention that the crafters who need the handles need to worry about how rare their handle is, and whether it's worth it to just try and find a woodcrafter to make them some handles specifically for whatever they are trying to make...

It's a big mess. Especially given how much cross over there is in crafting anyway. You need this glue, and these nails, and that handle, and that blade, and this color of this kind of leather strips.

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Not minding the mess doesn't make it a good system. And a better system would still be best. I don't mind all the cross over, though I think right now it's a bit excessive. My point was more about the ridiculous number of handles woodworkers can make all with the same recipe, and all of them basically boil down to a polished length of wood, but none of them are interchangeable. It's convoluted at best.

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Originally Posted by tymora

Not everyone minds the "mess".

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I do.

Redundant items is bad design. There are few positives, and a whole bunch of negatives.

I like the way things are here...the variety made things not only better for grinding (just imagine how annoying would be having only one plank type, ine handle type, one swordgrip, etc for grinding purposes) but also made things more realistic. Not all kind of wood can be used to make bows, shafts or handles because some ar too "soft" or too flexible for certain purposes.

About iron materials, i'm sure they already have usage for them that will be exclusive of each kind (like alchemy making sulfur from limonites) so i'd rather wait and see what dev team has in theirs sleeves before asking the removal of these items.

I'm sorry, but from a grinding perspective I fail to see how using the same exact recipe for making what is essentially the same exact thing is any less repetitive or any more enjoyable when you have the choice of making 8 different things that are all essentially the same thing.

and from an economy stand point it's downright brutal for grinding. Do I want to figure out which handles are going to sell the fastest? which ones will get me the most money? make a small variety of each one and hope? or do I just want to crank out handles secure in the knowledge that someone somewhere can use them for something?

Be interesting if the handles (for example) are interchangeable but give different equipment stats. Say Pine gives +1 control -1 craftsmanship...etc etc

I really wish that FF14 and every other game would do something similar to what EVE did when it came to crafting materials.

1. Everything including the biggest stations and most advanced ships used the same materials. Granted some high end things used a special material or two, but they still all required a ton of the most basic items a day one newbie could gather. In fact in terms of money for time investment, when I left the game, titanium (most basic mat) was one of the more profitable things to go get for a non dedicated mining char. That means every starting the game can have a source of income and profit. Your level 1 miner can sell the same metals to a level 50 blacksmith that a level 50 miner can.

2. For FF14, get rid of all the extra materials. Don't have 10 different types of metal, have one metal (or iron and a precious metal at most). Don't have 15 types of leather. Have leather. Now I'm not against multiple sources, but in EVE, different sources of a material gave you different numbers of the final good. For example the easy source of metal gives you a few things per swing, an advanced one gives you 5-10 times the amount or something like that. A low level creature might give you 3 leather hides, a late game one might give you 20.

3. Dunno how it would be, but in EVE there are special detection skills that allow people to gather mats that aren't normally found in a certain area.

4. A node is only good for a few swings before you have to run off, I'd change that. In even you can gather from the same spot for hours... but if it's overgathered it'll start producing less. So places that aren't visited as often produce more mats (a good way to spread people out).

#1: Iron is already something like that. Armorer uses Iron till rank 50.

#2: Kind of boring.

#3: You already have that - Increases chance of rare materials gathered. Unfortunately, it kicks in randomly.

#4: Supposed to be an anti-bot feature. How well it works is another question though.

You've misread my post. You mention iron, well it isn't the metal you start out working with, nor is it something a level 1 miner is probably going to mine. As for it being boring, I don't really care. A good economy which can involve everyone in the game is better. Plus every other game with a crafting system seems to do the do this metal and then do the same things in that metal scheme. So technically the current system is boring.

On the third thing, it would add nodes for you to harvest instead of increasing chances. Those nodes would be a little better than the average in that area. No comments on how anti botting works.

I do see his point though in that it's a inventory nightmare. I run around on botanist for like 10 min, hop on fisherman, jump on miner.. My inventory is 100/100 slots and MOST of that is just 1 thing here, 1 thing there.. so few the are worth nothing, but so many DIFFERENT things, that I have no place to put them. Work just to throw them away or NPC them ><

I totally agree with the OP, and with the idea that there are just plain too many of some things in the game. If you want to talk realism.... BEHOLD, as i smelt these iron nuggets.... WITH A FILE! Summoning a forge in the middle of nowhere, which by the way you cannot SMELT with, filing at the speed of sound, generating enough heat from friction with my MND to melt said iron, then using said file to form them into nuggets totally magically!

As you can see..... you can throw the aim at realism out just because of that. Realism would be you placing the materials in the receptical that could actually make them, smelting being a smelter, to make the desired items. So no realism is in crafting besides the crazy amount of materials we have to tote around.

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Originally Posted by tymora

Be interesting if the handles (for example) are interchangeable but give different equipment stats. Say Pine gives +1 control -1 craftsmanship...etc etc

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This is something they should do if they plan to have so many handles/grips/whatnot available.

Hmm. This is a tough issue. I for one like the variety for its aesthetic appeal; I despise it for what it does to the inventory. I like the variety it adds to the economy; but its pointless since regardless of variety the market will always sway towards "highest gain" whether that highest gain is the most SP for the least effort or the most gil for the least effort. In the case of ore, sand limonite, that means choosing between 4, 5, or 6 items to make one set of nuggets. People lean towards the lesser, using the others only as they have them (at least, in terms of /purchasing/ it is frequently cheaper to buy the lesser quantity, though not always, that is how it trended when I was buying).

So really it comes down to what is more important? Space or variety? Personally, I think it would be nice to take the middle ground. Iron Sand and Iron Ore, nix the limonite.

Other alternatives include being able to mix and match the limonite, sand, and ore freely. Say, four ore makes twelve nuggets. Five sand makes twelve nuggets. Six ore and ore limonite and ore sand in an combination creates twelve nuggets (see what I did there?). Of course, this would require a dynamic, adaptive system to be truly efficient. With the current system of recipes, I suspect that would literally mean making a database entry for every combination of ore/sand/limonite. That's a lot of new recipes sure, but it is also making the system easier; "Use any of these in any combination" is much more newbie friendly than "Use this, that and that."

Another option is removing sand and limonite and moving iron to a system similar to cotton thread (which is used to make cotton or canvas simply by adding more thread to the base recipe.) So... Make iron ore available where sand and limonite currently are. Make 6x Ore = 12 nuggets say, a Rank 20 synth, make 5ore = 12 nuggets a Rank 30, make 4ore = 12 nuggets a Rank 40. Okay, so I pulled those numbers out of my arse; it is just an example. Properly balanced I think it has potential enough to be at least considered.

Just a few ideas to alleviate the inventory while still providing depth to the system (albeit in a different place).

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Originally Posted by Reika

I totally agree with the OP, and with the idea that there are just plain too many of some things in the game. If you want to talk realism.... BEHOLD, as i smelt these iron nuggets.... WITH A FILE! Summoning a forge in the middle of nowhere, which by the way you cannot SMELT with, filing at the speed of sound, generating enough heat from friction with my MND to melt said iron, then using said file to form them into nuggets totally magically!

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Don't forget, you're also using a heat catalyst in the form of a fire crystal.
What, did you expect a world with magic in it to NOT take advantage such a resource?


People concerned about a variety of items should either learn some inventory management skills or take a look at what happens in their own home IRL if they refuse to throw stuff away.
A limited inventory is something I EXPECT to have to deal with in a game like this, as it adds an extra dimension to the game.

using an ice catalyst making toad leather, i suffer an unstable fire element.....
things that add extra dimention, cool, but you cant explain everything in a realistic sense in a fantasy game. Fire crystals as a catalyst sure, but.... its a crystal with aparently enough heat to melt iron. and I am carrying around 200+ of them.

Where should the boundary of realism and fantasy be placed?

I forgot to mention. Using a file places your materials on a wooden work bench.... what is producing the heat to melt the iron and why doesn't my work bench burn up?

Real life has more than one source of iron ore, such as hematite and magnetite. I think it makes sense.

real life you don't use crystals as a source of heat or melt metal on wooden tables with files. There are countless of things that would need to be added to the game if we want to get all 'real life' with it.

It wouldn't be as bad if you could alloy nuggets into ingots instead of ore into nuggets. You could easily consolidate all the different kinds of ore into their respective nuggets and still have the flexibility of alloying them. I don't know why they didn't do this in the first place.