Tempering

So in the research I've been doing around this forum, I've seen conflicting opinions about tempering, from the thought that it erases all sense of self and leaves only the desire to serve the primal, supported by the group tempered after Ifrit's initial summoning, to the suggestion that not all tempered lose coherence and thought, supported by the Serpent Reavers - but the fact is, based on pure hard ingame facts, it seems we know fairly little.

I think my biggest question here is, do we actually have evidence that ALL Serpent Reavers are tempered...? Or are some of them actually just following Leviathan of their own free will?

Bit of an out there suggestion around here, it seems, but hear me out. If there is any direct ingame dialogue that says that, in fact, that all of them are without a doubt tempered, please direct me to it, but otherwise I'm seeing a bit of inconsistency in assuming so. First of all, we'll start with the definitive tempered we fight. Leviathan's tempered, in particular, are called "Drowned", as evidenced by their enemy names - Drowned Butcher, Drowned Diviner, etc. Without a doubt, these men and women have been tempered by the Sahagin or by Leviathan himself, and seem to be Serpent Reavers as well, bearing the same blue face tattoos. Why, then, if all Reavers are tempered, do they not share the Drowned distinction in battle? Instead, we get Sastasha's lot: Shalloweye Reaver, Shallowscale Reaver, etc., and Sapsa's, the Shallowclaw/Shallowtail/Shelfeye/Shelfscale Reavers. (They could easily be Drowned Shalloweye, etc., right?) Notably, every Reaver encountered in the game seems to be as coherent as anyone, down to the one in the Garuda questline that pretends to be someone else in order to steal a shipment of crystals.

Then there's also the issue of the cutscenes in Sastasha itself, where Captain Madison is killed by Denn the Orcatoothed, beginning the fight against him. If Madison was tempered, why would Denn kill him? Madison was, without a doubt, a Reaver captain, and we all know that the more tempered there are, the stronger the primals become. Why willingly weaken his own primal? Unless Madison was, in fact, not tempered, and simply acting in his own interests, which for whatever reason coincide with following Leviathan of his own will.

Overall, the Reavers strike me more as a really bad group of pirates than a bunch of tempered men and women. They have no scruples about serving Leviathan; perhaps the Sahagin pay well, in coin or goods of some kind? They hold no love for Limsa, so they'd see no reason to care if it's flattened by a primal; and perhaps by buying Leviathan's favor, they hope for exactly that, the chance to do what the want without the interference of the Maelstrom and her ships.

What I'm really getting at, at the base of all this, is wondering exactly what the nature of tempering is, and what it does to those who fall victim. Personally, I'm inclined toward the thought that Ifrit's tempered are the best example we're likely to get, driven by nothing more than the devotion to their "god". Thoughts?

I think it also has to do with the nature of the primal as well.

It should be noted that the term "tempering" is specifically for the process that Ifrit carries out on his followers, including Amalj'aa, as you've rightly pointed out, but the community uses as a catch-all for all primals. In relation to Ifrit, for example, there are also Little Ala Mhigans who have been "tempered" and infiltrate the camp as spies to coordinate the capture and smuggling of people. The Amalj'aa, too, are able to have quite cohesive thoughts and plots. I think ultimately, the process of being claimed by a primal makes that person worship said being, and in doing so, that person will go to any ends to make sure their "god" will persist. We only really see the extreme effects of amnesia or psychosis or insanity with people who have been tempered multiple times, or just aren't compatible or strong enough to survive the process.

This claiming process varies from primal to primal, where it changes people's personalities to even their physicality (re: sylph that are touched are purple).

If I were a betting man, I am going to say all reavers are drowned/claimed by Leviathan, because Sahagain aren't native to our lands they need a source of information and communication, as as they are there specifically for breeding to save their population, I doubt they have large numbers. Using human thralls as front lines will certainly save them some casualties.

If we were to look through the eyes of NPCs, it isn't too far of a stretch to think that these touched people are brainless or crazy. They cannot fathom why anyone would independently worship a primal and steal crystals to do so, or hang out with beastmen who are the enemies of the state.

Without hunting down sources, it's been stated that the Tempered tend to display the temperament and major attitudes of the primal.

As an example, the tempered Sylph are stated to display the attitude of Ramuh: justice and protectiveness of the lands considered theirs. They seek to repulse threats from without, and their attempts to temper the untempered sylph seem to be them trying to bring them into the community.

Ultimately, the Tempered could probably be described best as displaying fanatic devotion to the ideal of their 'god'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kyan

It should be noted that the term "tempering" is specifically for the process that Ifrit carries out on his followers

---

This doesn't seem to be true, as far as I can tell. A lot of the Sylph are referred to as Tempered. This includes all journal entries and FATEs.

Quote:

---

Komuxio tells you that the wayward spriggan headed north into Larkscall, despite his warnings of hostile creatures and tempered sylphs.

---

Quote:

---

Sylphs tempered in the levin-light of the primal Ramuh have descended into Little Solace to abduct their untempered brethren..

---

The sylphs, however, refer to these beings as simply touched. So, either Ifrit was the first being Eorzeans figured out was doing this willbreaking and they standardized his name for it, Lightning "burns" will away the same as Fire, or the development team just felt like calling Leviathan's tempered Drowned.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rennah

Do we actually have evidence that ALL Serpent Reavers are tempered...?

---

Some...but probably not enough... The Sahagin and Leviathan have been a thorn in my side for a long time.
Let's start with some quotes and see how consistent those are with the rest of the story.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by At the Gates

North and South Tidegate serve to protect the central and eastern parts of La Noscea from the Sahagin and their mindless servants, the Serpent Reavers, so it is imperative that the outposts are well supplied.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feint and Strike

"Remember, no killin' the smallfolk, or it'll be your blood what stains Lord Leviathan's altars!"

---

Quote:

---

These pirates you encountered with the tattooed faces... They call themselves the “Serpent Reavers.” Their ranks are formed of cutthroats and madmen who have pledged themselves body and soul to the primal Leviathan.

---

Quote:

---

Serpent Reavers are pirates who take the Sahagin gods. What sorry sort of pirate offers prayers to Leviathan? Like all zealots, their fervor grows with their numbers. Subtracting five fanatics from their fold ought to dampen their fire a while.

---

Though some hold a theory that some primals don't temper, they can't begin to claim Leviathan might one of them. There's "Drowned" pirates aplenty, and we know the Sahagin didn't become murderous until Seal Rock appeared (the same year Leviathan was first summoned, 1562). Aside from that, it's hazy as hells. Version 1.0 first hinted at tempering when Ifrit made others his thralls, which was foreshadowed by this line about the Reavers:

Quote:

---

There have been fell rumors of the beast tribes abducting normal citizens and brainwashing them into joining their ranks, only to use them as fodder in their petty wars. Let us hope they are but rumors...Though many say that the Serpent Reavers of Vylbrand are made up of traitors and brigands who betrayed their own kind, could it be that they, too, are simply victims of this brainwashing?

---

So, we've got a hefty bag of evidence that the first Reavers were pirates who gave ear to the Sahagin thinking it would get them coin or power and ended up tempered just to be sure. Then they went hamlet to hamlet, burning, killing, and kidnapping more to be tempered. The thing is, in the Lominsan LV1-15 quests of ARR, you meet a kid who joined a pirate crew right before said crew's captain bent the knee to the Sahagin. Though this terrified him and he escaped at the first opportunity, he still identifies himself as having once been a Reaver. It's likely that there are "true" Reavers (who are Drowned) and that there are those who willingly take orders from (or are coerced into obeying) the tempered. Likewise, some are likely just doing business with the tempered and don't care where their gold comes from.

But it gets weirder for me. I can't even guarantee that most of the Sahagin are tempered. The beastmen daily quests for the Sahagin start out like the Brothers of Ash did; Novv's clutch has a different color than the others and refers to them as fanatical. However,

Novv himself was once the leader of the Coral Tridents - so it can't be so simple. Despite beginning his rampage when Leviathan was first summoned, Novv conquered for the matriarch's favor, not because Leviathan wanted him to.

Even the diplomatic Novv of today isn't entirely opposed to Leviathan. Were only some of the original Sahagin warriors tempered? Did the Coral Tridents only become tempered recently? Are we sure they're tempered now? The only way the story maintains consistency (as far as I can tell so far) is if we fill in some gaps with assumptions large enough to border on fanon.

I was so sure that Through the Maelstrom would tie up some loose ends, or at least not just make bigger gaps in the puzzle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rennah

If Madison was tempered, why would Denn kill him?

---

A bit of Devil's Advocate, but just because you can successfully brainwash someone into being a zealot doesn't mean you've brainwashed them into being smart and capable. Think of some real-world cults. Madison may very well have believed that Leviathan was the one true god and still not only have failed to hold off invaders of the pirate base but fled and let them give chase into sacred spawning grounds. Madison was weak, and a coward, and he brought adventurers under city-state banners directly to Reaver loading docks within Sahagin territory and asked Mr. Splashy to make up for his incompetence. He was more of a liability than an asset, so Denn neutralized him.

I find it interesting that all the Primals have different habits of Tempering.

Ifrit is the one who seems to most desires worshipers, tempering left and right and creating some of the most zealous Tempered.

I haven't seen any that have been tempered by Garuda other than the Ixal who summoned her, however she does try to temper the player when she first fights them. So I'm guessing she prefers to temper those who have proven themselves to be strong to act as her Champions. Also she seems to prefer devouring aether to worship.

As for Titan, the Kobolds don't actually seem that extremely tempered as other Primal worshipers, at least when talking to the beastmen daily Kobolds. Although I've only played through the first bit of those quests so if someone can clarify how extremist the Kobolds get.

Garuda seemed to prefer more to rely on brute strength rather than tempering though - she only resorted to it after the player beat her in combat, unlike Ifrit, who was more than happy to try tempering the player only moments after his summoning.

Considering Ifrit is fought at level 20 (and even his hard and extreme mode forms are considered tame), where as Garuda is fought at a much higher level, it's entirelly possible that Ifrit is simply overcompensating for his own innate weakness by tempering anyone and anything he can get his claws on, especially as a Primal's strength is connected, at least partially, to how many worshippers they have.

As for Titan, although it's not clear in ARR, in another thread I think it was either Moose or Noloe mentioned datamining had revealed dummied dialogue for the never-implemented Titan fight in 1.0, and apparently Titan actually indeed tempered some members of the Company of Heroes when they fought him, and simply killed those he didn't (this would explain why they're so hesitant about sending the player off to fight him directly in ARR - they saw just how dangerous he really was five years before.). In any event, it's obvious Titan too does in fact temper, but like Garuda seems to rely more on brute force than creating an army of zealous followers.

And then there's the wildcard - the dragonkin (the Dravanian Horde) and their currently unknown dragon Primal - Ishgard regards anyone suspected of having even minor contact with a Dravanian as a heretic, which on the surface simply appears to be typical religious dogma, however, visiting the cells at Whitebrim you can actually see suspected Dravanian supporters, and they clearly exhibit personality traits of tempered (lack of free will, zealous ramblings about how the dragons will destroy Ishgard etc), suggesting that the Dravanians too are tempering, and have in fact been doing it for years. But as to the identity of the Primal responsible is anyone's guess (it's clearly not Bahamut though, as he was contained within Dalamud for centuries after all).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

The sylphs, however, refer to these beings as simply touched. So, either Ifrit was the first being Eorzeans figured out was doing this willbreaking and they standardized his name for it, Lightning "burns" will away the same as Fire, or the development team just felt like calling Leviathan's tempered Drowned.

---

Well, I stand corrected I guess, though I do feel that Ramuh "touching" (gee, those mental images - beard tentacles) sylph seems to be the more frequently used phrase by the sylph and dialogue.

I also agree that, I feel the kobold and sahagain beast tribe dailies are very different to the Amalj'aa and sylph tribes we worked with. Both do not disagree with the majority of what their kin are doing, they're just looking for the best way for them to survive longterm, sustainably. I don't get the feeling from the npcs we meet in these stories that many kobolds or sahagain are indeed claimed in the same way amalj'aa or sylph are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

snip

---

Thanks, Moose! I knew someone around here would have a good collection of references on the subject. I'm inclined to join your thoughts here - that some of the pirates aren't tempered and are just in it for themselves, monetary gain or whatnot, not realizing what exactly they're getting into, but others definitely are. Also, I suppose it's highly doubtful that the Reavers to be found in Sapsa would be there if not tempered, given that it's their spawning grounds, and the Sahagin questline (of which I've only done the intro) makes it abundantly clear that it's the only one they've got and they need it safe.

Excellent point about Madison, as well. My only thinking was "but if he's tempered, losing him would weaken Leviathan!" But...the worship of a single hyur wouldn't mean much, if it meant putting the sahagin in danger.

It seems the actual effects of tempering vary widely, as well, if we assume the likes of Madison and (I keep blanking on his name, even though I just did this quest chain...) the Reaver who assumes the identity of the man on the docks to steal the crystal cargo were tempered. They seemed pretty well coherent, even if fanatically devoted; perhaps those tempered by Ifrit reacted so strongly because their tempering had just happened, or it IS just a difference in the nature of each primal?

On the subject of the kobolds, I've never looked at them as tempered, actually, just very close with their "god". The website even states that Titan is more like a father to them than anything, so I don't see him resorting to tempering kobolds, when he's got them following him of their own free will. People, on the other hand...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rennah

On the subject of the kobolds, I've never looked at them as tempered, actually, just very close with their "god". The website even states that Titan is more like a father to them than anything, so I don't see him resorting to tempering kobolds, when he's got them following him of their own free will. People, on the other hand...

---

I find it funny that a golem turns out to be the god of a bunch of rats. Doing the kobold beast tribe initiate quest, you can clearly see they are rats.

I always thought of kobolds as mole-like beastmen, but I supposed rodentesque would fit the bill :)

Rodentesque maybe... but for some reason I am thinking lemurs with Kobolds (not the ingame one but realworld lemurs). they're mannerisms and agressive noises has that lemur vibe to me.

Kobolds are specifically mentioned by a few folks as being rats. Which does beg the question: Do they share any relation to qiqirn?

Interesting point, but when you break through the checkpoints with Y'shtola, in English the text says "Damn them... they have made thralls of soldiers and civilians both." but in the Japanese dub you can hear her refer to them as "tempered".

Since the scene is rather related to the subjet:
T9 kill cutscene
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YXN...ature=youtu.be

Nael got untempered after the fight it seems and retempered after getting speared.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dragonflie

Since the scene is rather related to the subjet:
T9 kill cutscene
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YXN...ature=youtu.be

Nael got untempered after the fight it seems and retempered after getting speared.

---

I think it's an interesting concept.

That a Primal can relinquish their claim on a tempered soul, effectively curing them of tempering. However, because a Primal needs to voluntarily give up a worshipper, which fuels their power, I can't see Ifrit, Garuda and the like doing so.

I don't know how it is with Elder Primals though...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Razard

I don't know how it is with Elder Primals though...

---

Considering how Odin is, they definitely seems to be summoned differently then the others.

Maybe they are like some permanent natural forces that just can't be erased.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dragonflie

Considering how Odin is, they definitely seems to be summoned differently then the others.

Maybe they are like some permanent natural forces that just can't be erased.

---

Well, it makes sense why they were sealed until the Garleans accidentally freed them. If you can't kill them, might as well seal em forever.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Razard

I think it's an interesting concept.

That a Primal can relinquish their claim on a tempered soul, effectively curing them of tempering. However, because a Primal needs to voluntarily give up a worshipper, which fuels their power, I can't see Ifrit, Garuda and the like doing so.

I don't know how it is with Elder Primals though...

---

Ironically, this is actually what version 1.0 seemed to be hinting at when you first encountered Ifrit during the Path of the Twelve main scenario quest 'Lord Errant' - in the cell in Zan'rak just prior to being taken to the Bowl of Embers, the player encounters two npcs, a lalafell girl in a robe and coif curled up in a foetal position (named 'Cloudy-Eyed Prisoner') and an elezen male in a doublet reclining back and named 'Emotionless Prisoner'. Talking to the two revealed they were already tempered (the elezen specifically mentions "being tempered in the flames" like he was), and when the player and their Path Companion are then taken to the Bowl of Embers, those two prisoners are included with them, and then apparently tempered again.

This seemed to suggest that tempering was an imperfect process that had to be continuously performed in order to keep tempered under a Primal's thrall, but all the information shown in ARR seemed to retcon this, with it mentioned time and time again that tempering was permanent and that a tempered was pretty much "better dead" than to be allowed to live. If the info revealed during the Second Coil is correct, this would actually ring true with the events with Ifrit during 'Lord Errant' in 1.0.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dragonflie

Considering how Odin is, they definitely seems to be summoned differently then the others.

Maybe they are like some permanent natural forces that just can't be erased.

---

All Primals are stated as being immortal beings that cannot be truly destroyed - they're literally just essences that float through the river of aether (I dislike using the FFVII-reference-term 'Lifestream', as it's a retcon - 1.0 only ever called it 'the river of aether through the planet'), and that the summoning process effectively creates a physical form for them to inhabit, powered by the aether in the crystals they consume as part of the summoning rite and the devotion given to them by their followers (read: tempered).

This explains why they were sealed in Silvertear Lake - the Allag knew they couldn't be truly destroyed and so the next best thing was simply to seal them away to prevent them from being summoned, Odin and Bahamut obviously being so powerful as to require their own individual sealing (Odin in Urth's Font and Bahamut within Dalamud).

It may be that NPCs simply believe it to be permanent, though the suspiciously lion-like lizardmen beast tribe quests indicate that they believe it's possible to end tempering through chemical means, which sort of almost not really worked.
Then again, Ul'dah wouldn't be really interested in housing the Tempered in post-Calamity days, so why not kill them under the prescripts of it being permanent anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Ironically, this is actually what version 1.0 seemed to be hinting at when you first encountered Ifrit during the Path of the Twelve main scenario quest 'Lord Errant' - in the cell in Zan'rak just prior to being taken to the Bowl of Embers, the player encounters two npcs, a lalafell girl in a robe and coif curled up in a foetal position (named 'Cloudy-Eyed Prisoner') and an elezen male in a doublet reclining back and named 'Emotionless Prisoner'. Talking to the two revealed they were already tempered (the elezen specifically mentions "being tempered in the flames" like he was), and when the player and their Path Companion are then taken to the Bowl of Embers, those two prisoners are included with them, and then apparently tempered again.

This seemed to suggest that tempering was an imperfect process that had to be continuously performed in order to keep tempered under a Primal's thrall, but all the information shown in ARR seemed to retcon this, with it mentioned time and time again that tempering was permanent and that a tempered was pretty much "better dead" than to be allowed to live. If the info revealed during the Second Coil is correct, this would actually ring true with the events with Ifrit during 'Lord Errant' in 1.0.

---

So are you suggesting all those tempered were executed needlessly?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gornotck

Then again, Ul'dah wouldn't be really interested in housing the Tempered in post-Calamity days, so why not kill them under the prescripts of it being permanent anyway.

---

I would go along with this more than anything. Ul'dah is having tons of problems with refugees and rebuilding; taking in tempered prisoners and waiting/hoping for the process to be reversed (I do wonder if its possible to reverse it 100%; perhaps it weakens to the point of the tempered to regain some free will, but they have that bit of their Primal still in them, and it can be "rekindled" easily or something) would probably do more harm than good.

Having the general population think tempering is non-reversible is likely as much a tool of control as anything; keeps merchants and the like from dealing with beastmen, adventurers too, and the general population fearful of the beastmen.


The issue, then, would be with the Scions. Where are they getting the info that tempering is permanent? If they're just taking what someone said (like, whoever convinced everyone else) and not checking...or did they look into it themselves? I'm more curious about that...

Also, what is the stance on tempering's permanence from the other two city-states? We really only get the view from Ul'dah (I think, I can't remember).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Magis

So are you suggesting all those tempered were executed needlessly?

---

Its possible, but we can't be 100% sure. It may be that certain people need to be "re-tempered" often (every few months or so), and some get tempered almost permanently (years between tempering). If tempered prisoners are trying to carry out the will of their primal while waiting for the tempering to wear off...it could be very hard to justify keeping them alive long enough for it to wear off.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PArcher

The issue, then, would be with the Scions. Where are they getting the info that tempering is permanent? If they're just taking what someone said (like, whoever convinced everyone else) and not checking...or did they look into it themselves? I'm more curious about that...

---

Since the end-all goal of the Scions is to stop the primals, it could be seen as a necessary evil. Even having the tempered take weeks to untemper is a threat, since they are fueling their primal. For example the guy in Coerthas who was sacrificing rats. However Thancred seems very sincere when he told you that the people had to be executed. It could be a case of they just don't know? The cutscene where the person get's "untempered" in 1.0... do the other Scions see this?

As I said they weren't really 'untempered' as more 'tempered again' - the comments of the npcs in the cell in Zan'rak definitely hinted at it. And in any event the only ones to actually see this happen was the player and their Path Companion (and I suppose two sylphs as well, who were hiding and watching the events unfold in the Bowl of Embers from a distance).

But your idea definitely rings true - with Ifrit coming back stronger and stronger each time he's defeated and the Immortal Flames undermanned, it might be considered the 'least abhorrent choice' - better to sacrifice a few tempered victims than risk losing hundreds, even thousands, of soldiers to take Ifrit down the next time he's summoned.

And in any event, Thancred clearly feels empathy for it, but as is his personality, he bears that particular burden on his own (which probably went some way to explaining how Lahabrea was able to possess him later).