Turn 5: Do WHM's pull hate from you, Tanks?

I'm very curious as to get the opinions of other tanks who are experienced with turn 5. I was recently invited to a supposed "static" group and during our encounter when we reached Conflag/Fireball phase, I would Cure III to bring up the group being bombed by fireball.

But then something rather unexpected happened, I took hate from the main tank and Twintania turned around and picked me off! My enmity bar was yellow when I had last checked it and my Shroud had about 30 seconds left on CD, but never in all my clears for turn 5 had I ever pulled Twin off a tank before. So to say the least I was quite surprised. (I've even dropped triple Cure III bombs before and never even came close to pulling before. o.O )

The group ended in failure unfortunately, Tanks couldn't weren't coordinating with each other apparently, people getting hit by divebombs etc. And in the aftermath they brought to my attention that it was my fault. That I should always shroud right away when it comes off cool down to prevent from pulling.

Perhaps I'm not experienced in T5 as I thought because I've never had to worry about pulling hate from the main tank, or felt that I had to shroud right away.

Have any other tanks experienced this?

I never seen agro problems with Twintania excep maybe on the first 10 seconds of the fight... And sometimes with the adds. But with twin in conflag phase? O,o Seems imposible to me :p The tank was a warrior?

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Originally Posted by Elvin

I never seen agro problems with Twintania excep maybe on the first 10 seconds of the fight... And sometimes with the adds. But with twin in conflag phase? O,o Seems imposible to me :p The tank was a warrior?

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Yes, he was a warrior.

I mean, I've even triple Cure III bombed before and never even came close to pulling from a main tank, so I couldn't fathom that one Cure III would have done it. x_x

While it's hard to say without having been there personally, you should never assume you don't need to worry about enmity. It's something you should always watch for. Also, if he was a warrior, it's sort of possible he wasn't just spamming his enmity combo, perhaps opting to weave in a 10% damage debuff. Again, without being there, can't say.

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Originally Posted by KyahAlmasy

But then something rather unexpected happened, I took hate from the main tank and Twintania turned around and picked me off!

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MT ran into the conflag and OT was not 2nd in the hate list?

Defience on switched on?

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Originally Posted by ispano

While it's hard to say without having been there personally, you should never assume you don't need to worry about enmity. It's something you should always watch for. Also, if he was a warrior, it's sort of possible he wasn't just spamming his enmity combo, perhaps opting to weave in a 10% damage debuff. Again, without being there, can't say.

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He did mention that he was trying to do more damage, and that he should have been trying to do more enmity combos, which most likely led to my pulling.

And don't get me wrong, I always watch my enmity meter. But in all my experience with healing, especially in Turn 5, I've never jumped up from yellow, to pulling before. Especially so soon after having shrouded. And as a White Mage, we have very little room for Enmity management when we have to keep everyone completely topped off while helping heal the main tank or else they will go splat.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

MT ran into the conflag and OT was not 2nd in the hate list?

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The Main Tank was not in a conflag when I had pulled hate from him, no. It was when I cured him through Affirmary after having taken a Death Sentence did Twin turn around pick me off real quick.

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Originally Posted by KyahAlmasy

He did mention that he was trying to do more damage, and that he should have been trying to do more enmity combos, which most likely led to my pulling.

And don't get me wrong, I always watch my enmity meter. But in all my experience with healing, especially in Turn 5, I've never jumped up from yellow, to pulling before. Especially so soon after having shrouded. And as a White Mage, we have very little room for Enmity management when we have to keep everyone completely topped off while helping heal the main tank or else they will go splat.

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Oh I know, I just don't let myself think I won't have to worry about it. It's just one of the many things I constantly pay attention to. Like pulling from one of the tanks in Thornmarch EM as a Scholar.

But yeah, he likely shouldn't of been trying to do more damage unless he knew he had a large lead, but the 10% damage reduction combo finisher is nice to have when he can get it in.

Yeah, if it was a warrior the problem is clear.

He didn't use his agro combo enought. Paladins are using it almost all the time, while warriors have diferent combos, for what I hear of, at least 1 for agro generation and 1 to put a 10% damage debuff. He was probably spaming the 10% damage debuff as Ispano says. Wich is very nice, as long as he can keep the agro, haha.

But anyway I woudn't say it was your fault. It's an issue so weird to see that.... And in T5 healers shoud use shroud of saints in a mana eficiently way, not for his agro. At least on my opinion...

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Originally Posted by ispano

Oh I know, I just don't let myself think I won't have to worry about it. It's just one of the many things I constantly pay attention to. Like pulling from one of the tanks in Thornmarch EM as a Scholar.

But yeah, he likely shouldn't of been trying to do more damage unless he knew he had a large lead, but the 10% damage reduction combo finisher is nice to have when he can get it in.

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Hehe Scholars are lucky because they generate so very little Enmity in comparison to White Mages who are enmity sponges. But yeah, I just felt it was a little abrasive for them to throw me under the bus for something like that. >.<

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Originally Posted by KyahAlmasy

Hehe Scholars are lucky because they generate so very little Enmity in comparison to White Mages who are enmity sponges. But yeah, I just felt it was a little abrasive for them to throw me under the bus for something like that. >.<

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I was actually pulling flashing orange on him as Scholar, ie I saw it happening before I actually pulled. Also, with a single target like Twin, you can target her quickly during casts to see where you are in relation to the tank.

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Originally Posted by Elvin

Yeah, if it was a warrior the problem is clear.

He didn't use his agro combo enought. Paladins are using it almost all the time, while warriors have diferent combos, for what I hear of, at least 1 for agro generation and 1 to put a 10% damage debuff. He was probably spaming the 10% damage debuff as Ispano says. Wich is very nice, as long as he can keep the agro, haha.

But anyway I woudn't say it was your fault. It's an issue so weird to see that.... And in T5 healers shoud use shroud of saints in a mana eficiently way, not for his agro. At least on my opinion...

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Well, I use my Shroud in very particular sequences for Turn 5 when I feel Enmity may become a problem. But in all my experience, never had I had that happen to me before. And they were all so quick point the finger at me, as if I should had expected it to happen all along.

I guess that's why I wanted to get the opinions of others. >.<

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Originally Posted by KyahAlmasy

Well, I use my Shroud in very particular sequences for Turn 5 when I feel Enmity may become a problem. But in all my experience, never had I had that happen to me before. And they were all so quick point the finger at me, as if I should had expected it to happen all along.

I guess that's why I wanted to get the opinions of others. >.<

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No, it's just a mindset. They saw YOU pull. So it's 100% YOUR fault in their minds. They don't care if the tank wasn't doing enough. You have to learn to spot the type and just avoid them.

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Originally Posted by ispano

No, it's just a mindset. They saw YOU pull. So it's 100% YOUR fault in their minds. They don't care if the tank wasn't doing enough. You have to learn to spot the type and just avoid them.

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Yeah I mean the whole run was just awful. They were getting hit by divebombs, positioning Twin wrong, not moving her after the necklace dropped etc. Eventually I got so frustrated that I left. They tried to turn it into some schoolyard fight in vent by trying to gang up and pick a fight with me but I just said I wasn't interested and signed out.

But yeah, the thread is what they were trying to say was my fault. Thank you for putting my mind at ease. n,n

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Originally Posted by Elvin

Yeah, if it was a warrior the problem is clear.

He didn't use his agro combo enought. Paladins are using it almost all the time, while warriors have diferent combos, for what I hear of, at least 1 for agro generation and 1 to put a 10% damage debuff. He was probably spaming the 10% damage debuff as Ispano says. Wich is very nice, as long as he can keep the agro, haha.

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There are 3 combos. Enmity, damage reduction and slashing resistance, the latter two have no enmity bonus. MT should not focus on damage on fights like Twintania, it's far more important to keep the dmg reduction up at all times while keeping hate. If the party doesn't have the dps to beat Twin without resorting to MT dps, they should not be in T5.

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Originally Posted by Sove92

There are 3 combos. Enmity, damage reduction and slashing resistance, the latter two have no enmity bonus. MT should not focus on damage on fights like Twintania, it's far more important to keep the dmg reduction up at all times while keeping hate. If the party doesn't have the dps to beat Twin without resorting to MT dps, they should not be in T5.

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It wasn't even the dps. They were having hate trouble between the off-tank and MT, they were getting hit by everything. It was just so messy. and when they said that to me it just felt sort of.. like they were reaching for some excuse to blame me.

I was a little worried that maybe I might have been acting a little overly confident, but this thread has sort of put that concern to rest.

Nope, you did nothing wrong. The warrior probably overestimate his threat and rotate Storm's Path and Storm's Eye instead. Main tank warrior should never ever do that. I main tank for my static and my threat is so far ahead other people's threat is like 1/4 my bar.

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Originally Posted by Lemon8or

Nope, you did nothing wrong. The warrior probably overestimate his threat and rotate Storm's Path and Storm's Eye instead. Main tank warrior should never ever do that. I main tank for my static and my threat is so far ahead other people's threat is like 1/4 my bar.

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Yeah, I mean I've always been so far away from actually pulling off the mt that the idea that I could take hate almost half way through the fight sort of baffled me. And what ruffled my feathers was that they were acting like I should have known better, and that as a whm I should be wasting my shroud the moment it comes off CD.

Sigh.

Never should happen, BAD WAR tank... keeping the -10% dmg debuf up 100% will still yield a HUGE gap in threat between the WAR and anyone else in the party.

If the WAR was trying to do more dmg to TWIN and is losing threat, then he wasnt doing his job correct or your other DPS are very bad to the point the WAR thinks he has to do more. Later in the fight, with a huge lead then yes start putting in the slashing debuf for a little extra dmg, but by the time your in this phase its dreadknights and your not attacking twin as much and the last few percent in last phase, your extra dps will not make enough of a difference to bother. Plus, without building enough buffer threat, when dreadknight phase starts and your not fully focusing on TWIN and the healers still healing, you may lose threat. Point, tanks job is to tank and not to focus on DPS.

I have never seen a healer pull Twin (I don't count the initial pulls, since aggro can be weird at the pull for any fight). Heck, I haven't seen a healer stay at #2 during Conflags.

Based on everything in the thread, it just seems like the group had no idea what they were doing. A WAR's tanking rotation is BB - BB - SP - repeat. IMO, Eye should only be used OTing, on enemies that don't do a ton of damage in the first place (used instead of Path) or if the aggro lead is such that losing a BB doesn't matter (late in a fight and you want to do a tiny bit more damage). One other time to use it is right before going Unchained + Berserk; this will generate a ton of aggro and the loss of that BB just won't matter.

It also seems the DPS weren't on it either, esp since the MT was trying to DPS.

Overall, not your fault.

Fireball? Was the orange triangle thingie of hell ontop of your head?

Dumb question...

I have seen twin be a bitch and turn around to spit at random people. Lol.. Maybe it was a one time mechanic issue.

by the time you reach conflag phase your main tank should have a solid lead on hate. Cure III people after fireball is normal and shouldn't pull hate, the off tank is more likely to pull hate at this stage. Its possible you might have cured too much at an early phase so you might wanna monitor your hate level at all times, especially during snake phase.

In my static, we have everyone stand in front of TT after scourges are dead to build up LB bar.

This was ok, until one time the WHM ate a Death Sentence. It turns out mass-curing the whole party generates a ton of hate; who knew!

Since then I've been paying extra attention to the enmity bar. If I don't make the conscious effort to build enmity at this point, she'll pull hate. What I do is stack Maim, Unchained, Berserk, and Storm's Eye debuff and Butchers block away while they last. Gives me an impressive lead and hate hasn't been a problem since.

You should never be able to pull hate off the Tank. They are probably comboing too little and are too focused on Death Sentence. I don't think you have to adjust at all.

I played whm in t5 and never have any pull issues (even that weird initial pulls ,adds only go to sch or brd not me), and our MT is WAR.

I've MTed Twin for about a few dozen kills, plus many many many many *breath* many failed runs for months. I have never ever once -- truly, never once -- had a healer come even remotely close to ever pulling aggro from me from the start of the fight to the end, no matter how successful or catastrophic the attempt was.

If you pulled hate from the MT, then sweet holy merciful lord, that tank was doing something incredibly wrong. The end.

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Originally Posted by KyahAlmasy

I'm very curious as to get the opinions of other tanks who are experienced with turn 5. I was recently invited to a supposed "static" group and during our encounter when we reached Conflag/Fireball phase, I would Cure III to bring up the group being bombed by fireball.

But then something rather unexpected happened, I took hate from the main tank and Twintania turned around and picked me off! My enmity bar was yellow when I had lastchecked it and my Shroud had about 30 seconds left on CD, but never in all my clears for turn 5 had I ever pulled Twin off a tank before. So to say the least I was quite surprised. (I've even dropped triple Cure III bombs before and never even came close to pulling before. o.O )

The group ended in failure unfortunately, Tanks couldn't weren't coordinating with each other apparently, people getting hit by divebombs etc. And in the aftermath they brought to my attention that it was my fault. That I should always shroud right away when it comes off cool down to prevent from pulling.
Perhaps I'm not experienced in T5 as I thought because I've never had to worry about pulling hate from the main tank, or felt that I had to shroud right away.

Have any other tanks experienced this?

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to answer the title of your post. ITs because SE kept a sub-par system from 1.0 where as healing magic is concidered high potancy "Wind Magic" rather low low potancy "Healing Magic" or low potency "water magic" Therefore creating high emity values that are unessassary in game.
But as many players say If you dont like it play another class..... which is just ingorance by both the players & devs towards a small probliem that shouldnt of been there in the first place.