Wanderer's Palace

Hey Guys,

I decided to help out a friend who plays warrior that has DL gear but no DL jewelry in the palace and boy was this a Grade A Disaster. We all kept crashing and burning as monsters would come after me when i was healing and taking me out.

I was wearing CT Gear and a bit of the DL Gear putting me an an Ilv of 74 and wielding the completed relic. Was this the reason why we kept crashing and burning? or was this just bad us all around?

With higher gear, it's certainly easier to overheal and draw a lot of enmity that way, but on the flip side, you shouldn't need to heal as often. Basically, three common possibilities here:

1. You healed too early before the tank could build up enough enmity.
2. You unknowingly overhealed a lot.
3. Tank wasn't very good.

I'm no tanking expert (still leveling mine ... slowly) so I can't suggest what he may or may not have done, but unless his weapon was level 40 or something, DL should be enough not to have a healer rip that much hate.

Sounds like either
- You were Overhealing like there was no tomorrow
- Your friend was not using the skills he is supposed to, to build enough enmity on multiple targets

or both =D

In general, losing enmity to a healer is most likely the tanks fault.
(there are exceptions - mob gets pulled at the same time a heal oges off i.e.)

I've gone as healer in WP (WHM) with just AF and a lvl 55 crafted weapon and healed fine - gear level has little to do with it (we did have a couple of deaths, but I admit those cases were when I screwed up and did something stupid - we still cleared it anyway).

Are you sure you weren't just trying to speedrun the place and kept taking risks with the Stalker Tonberry?

Yeah...the tank has enough gear to hold up good enough...how good a healer are you?? When I know I am over geared compared to tank I heal in Cleric Stance sometimes or just use regen and really cut down on heals. Keep trying you'll get it.

Even if you throw your heals in cleric stance, if the tank does not utilize his enmity moves, you will get aggro.

There are some things you can do to save the situation, throw some Stoneskins instead of heals, use your Shroud of the Saints, but it still depends on your tank at least doing a little AE enmity (which should be no problem for a WAR at all).

If you throw a single cure 2 on the tank and ur emnity goes from green to orange then probably its a tank issue.

How were you doing WP?
Did you pull big packs? -> if tank not equipped good enough -> takes more dmg -> requires more healing/tank running out of TP -> aggro/death
Did you do a normal run? -> even with mediocre gear hate should never be a problem unless DD/healer go nuts -> use regen and make sure there is no regen effect on the tank when pulling, spam Cure I instead of Cure II to reduce overhealing.

Tanks can do alot but they are no gods.
If DDs/healers with a 20lvl higher ilvl don't use their aggro reduce skills there is little a tank can do, because if they have to spam AoE hate akills they will run out of TP/MP very fast.

I honestly think I'm unknowingly over healing the tank. I've done the palace plenty of times before obtaining my relic with no problems. We crashed and burned 5 times in the very beginning. He is a great tank so he isn't the problem and had tanked hard mode dungeons with no casualties as far as he knows.

You sure? Must be serious overhealing then paired with not letting him build up aggro a bit.

We can talk numbers, but let me just state that you would have to crit cure II like 2 times in a row to top lets say one single overpower if he had defiance on.

And thats only if he is not using anything else.

More than likely a combination of your buddy learning to control aggro and your overhealing.

* Make sure he's not pulling w/ a Regen ticking away (Regen, Medica II)
* Throw a Stoneskin ... he should have some hate built up by the time it breaks for you to heal.
* Throw Eye for an Eye when it's up to reduce your need to heal

... or go ALL IN ... Throw an E4E (if up)/Stoneskin/Regen/ Cleric Stance/ HOLY HOLY HOLY the Bejesuz out of them Shroud/ turn off Cleric Stance.

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

You sure? Must be serious overhealing then paired with not letting him build up aggro a bit.

We can talk numbers, but let me just state that you would have to crit cure II like 2 times in a row to top lets say one single overpower if he had defiance on.

And thats only if he is not using anything else.

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Hard to say. It depends what weapon and accessories as well. If he was only doing like 70 damage per OP then that's pretty close to a single Cure for enmity. If it was pulls of 4 or mobs then that damage can add up quick for required heals.
They would have had to cycle Berserk and Unchained between pulls for extra enmity and even then it would be close.

If they weren't pulling with Infuriate and Steel Cyclone for the burst AOE enmity I could see it being tough to not pull aggro.

i70 is overkill for WP, it is designed around average i55 as the gear it drops.
I often see inexperienced healers not using stoneskin on self, not waiting until target has a solid enmity on all targets, not using eye4eye. Remember you take more damage than the tanker, so if you got a mob on self - dont hurry to self heal, wait until tanker takes it from you (unless you will die from 1 more hit taken). Also use SoS often, i see many new healers forgeting about it.
I often see inexperienced tankers not rotating defensive cds - they should rotate them, no reason not to.

Tell your friend to turn Defiance on :p

The issue likely isn't you. The issue is likely not enough Overpower from the WAR.

maybe i can give u a little tips on healing..

1. Never use regen before tank get enmity.. ( like use regen before battle starts )
2. In Wanderer Place maybe refrain from using cure III or medica II because it contains a lot of enmity

if that tips doesnt work.. the fault is in your tank

I have been in 2 dungeon runs where the tank only auto attack and never used a weapon skill. This may have been the problem, or he was using non emity weapon skills. You may want to consider this possibility also.

Another aspect to keep in mind- the job of the healer is to keep people alive and not at full health. There are times when full health is necessary to keep people alive. The trick is knowing when this is necessary. This helps you avoid overhealing. It can be a lot of fun when a tank can't hold threat. That is as long as you can kite and avoid overhealing.

You aren't going to overheal someone enough to drag enmity if the tank is doing their job properly. The only exception to this that I've EVER seen is Medica II, and in earlier dungeons before PLD's have Shield Oath.
If memory serves correctly, you take on less enmity from overhealing to begin with. That is, healing for 200 when 200 HP is missing will bring you more enmity that a heal for 200 when only 150 HP is missing.

There are accidents of course. You might have a good tank but before he was done grabbing enmity the DPS took one or two mobs off him and messed everything up, then the healer healed and grabbed some while the tank is crazily trying to get everything together again. That's one example of something that can happen, but not the only one.

You gain enmity from:
1. Casting a heal
2. The amount healed
3. Any buffs or debuffs you apply

This is why Medica II can wipe parties, because it touches on all three of these things, for the entire party, and that's why it's enough to grab hate from the tank. If spammed, it is no contest, the tank will lose. Well, at least in parties of 8, but I'm sure a 4 man group won't be much different.

In short, there isn't any real answer that can draw from just hearing about it. Just be more careful, wait for the tank to grab hate from all the mobs. You shouldn't be grabbing anything after that happens, if you are, something is wrong, and it probably isn't your fault.

I started tanking WP at ilvl55, and didn't have any trouble with others bearing relics as far as enmity management went. This is of course barring any healers/DPS who didn't manage things properly on their end. I suspect that your friend just needs to work out his/her rotation a bit better, and maybe be a bit more on the ball with skill timing and usage. Provoke -> Tomahawk goes a long way to recovering a wayward mob. Was your tanking friend rotating through mobs with their offensive rotation, and throwing Overpower and Flash around between combos? Bouncing about can help a lot.

Sounds like he forgot to turn on Defiance. Happens to the best of them.

Your buddy needs to make sure he uses his enmity generating moves as much as possible. I often see PLDs popping Flash a few times in the beginning of the fight while they're doing their normal rotation to make sure they generate enough enmity.

For you, don't try to keep him at full HP, he doesn't need to be. Experiment with how much damage he can take before you need to heal; since he's your friend this will make it easier for you to run with him. I know I can leave my FC members at 50% - 75% HP at all times if needed and switch into Cleric Stance to help speed up the fights, but with a DF group I'll try to keep them close to 100% as much as I can.

Use Cure I where possible, only using Cure II in cases of emergency or when Freecure procs. Regen at the beginning of the fight once the tank has agro. Try to avoid healing him if your Cure will push him over 100%, because that overhealing will generate a lot of enmity. Avoid using Medica II/Cure III; they shouldn't really be needed. Remember to use your SoS if you need it, since it's a useful tool for both shedding hate and MP regen. Remind your buddy if he still has Regen ticking on before a fight that he can right-click it to get rid of it.

Take one group at a time. Have him mark targets and have the group attack the targets he has marked. Make sure he's hitting ALL the mobs with overpower (it's a cone attack, he needs to step back when baddies are grouped around him). And of course, make sure he has defiance on. My warrior is only level 33 but I've already had a few of those "Sorry guys can't hold aggro" --> "Umm... Tank? turn Defiance on Maybe?" moments.

Last but not least, it doesn't hurt to level Gladiator up to 8 and get the "Flash" cross class ability. It's nowhere near as good as overpower but it uses MP instead of TP and it does affect a radius around you.

Last but least, make sure you click off regen and other healing over time effects between mobs or yes, you will eat all the hate. (I'm sure you know this but just in case...)

I ran WP for the first two times this morning as a war with Ilvl 55 against quite a few geared people(80+). If the dps don't throttle down a bit they can make it messy but, the healers didn't have this issue. I made a few large pulls to find out what I could handle and it stayed pretty much the same.

We never wiped, though I've found Blms have no idea how to move away from a giant angry flan. I was taking a really good beating trying to chain pull at their speed.

If the issue was on your end possibilities are already addressed. If it was on his end, I had to spam the crap out of overpower and flash to keep threat. Once I started doing that I never lost threat again. Opening with Infuriate > Unchained > Tomahawk > Overpower spam with a few Flashes mixed in should keep him way above everyone else. Berserk and Internal Release can be mixed in as well or saved for the next pack depending on how fast you are moving.

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Originally Posted by Freyt

If memory serves correctly, you take on less enmity from overhealing to begin with. That is, healing for 200 when 200 HP is missing will bring you more enmity that a heal for 200 when only 150 HP is missing.

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Patently untrue. Enmity generated is based on the number that pops up, regardless of how much over or under it is. That's why crit is bad for WHM. A crit from their already large heals means a whole lot of extra enmity for very little actual extra gain (since WHM has almost no proactive tools and therefore is in the habit of casting spells that heal exactly how much is needed and no more.) This is also why regen can pull stuff off tanks at the start of pulls very easily, even if they're at full hp and stoneskin'd. There is no reduction based on some nebulous "need" or lack of need for HP.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...arrior-Tanking

That. If your Warrior buddy has problems, ask him to read that.