DPS thread about Summoner's pets, namely Ifrit and Garuda.

So I'm doing this out of curiosity to reaffirm if it's still widely accepted that Garuda is the go-to pet as of right now in party content over Ifrit in nearly all situations.

I go into a Duty Roulette for Brayflox's longstop Hard Mode, and because I got an infinite loading screen the last time, one of the people that booted me last time was in this party as well, fun coincidence. I get in quicker this time and see the SMN using Ifrit, I ask him to change to Garuda, and it goes downhill.

I kindly asked him, literally said "could you please use Garuda as well" and I get some comments that I'll just quote directly.

"Garuda is for lil girls, I aint no lil girl."
"Anyone who thinks Garuda does more damage doesn't understand how useless Contagion is."
"She never uses it(Contagion) at the right time, thats a lvl 40 skill gone, no good"
"And Ifrit's enkindle does DoT as well as DMG, he's just better."


The rest of the argument is really just them insulting me because I would rather wait a minute or two and find another team then play with a SMN that by all accounts that I've seen so far, means he's doing something wrong.

Is this our community now? I was told to do a few other things as well in a form or two of profanity simply because I suggested he use his class better, which is my main to begin with. If we're supposed to be using Ifrit over Garuda suddenly in party content I'd like to know.

Some people are just stupid

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Originally Posted by Madoka

Some people are just stupid

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By what they said to me, you would have thought it was apparently the opposite, I filed a report after that run, whole new levels of ***hole were reached.

To be honest in a dungeon like that I don't think it makes too much of a difference to warrant a win or wipe. But their statement about Garuda not using Contagion at the right time just screams a lack of micro managing their pet.

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Originally Posted by RxRai

To be honest in a dungeon like that I don't think it makes too much of a difference to warrant a win or wipe. But their statement about Garuda not using Contagion at the right time just screams a lack of micro managing their pet.

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Yup, I specifically mentioned that Obey is something you have access to for a reason, I think the response I got was something like "I already have enough to do," or, "I ain't got time fo dat." Something like that.

If the summoner has macro's and micromanages his pet, Garuda is better, if the summoner doesn't Ifrit is better.

And it's not like you were in a raid where that extra 7 dps per second meant anything lol, I sometimes run these dungeons with Titan, and I do that because I can pull of the tanks to easily, so Titan is my insurance. I've had tanks ask me to switch from Titan, and I just respond, "When I feel safe" lol. Bosses I use Garuda, trash I just use what I feel like.. plus Titan allows us to move faster, I can send him to pull the next group or even protect the healer when the tank doesn't know where or when the adds come in.

And honestly, I rarely use Obey myself, and I still out dps summoners who do micromanage. You just have to understand how Garuda uses her abilities. I get more than enough time to cast Miasma, Bio 2, and Bio, and then I can fester right after, or drop a shadow flare before Garuda uses Contagion. The only reason I would need Obey is raids, like Turn 4.

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Originally Posted by Hiroradius

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Yeah.

I'm just picky since it's my best class, and after I asked nicely and had to argue with the guy and hear his ridiculous statements, I wasn't in the mood for going through a dungeon with him or the others so I told them to boot me at the 5 minute mark, we'd been arguing since the beginning otherwise anyways.

I remember the days when I would keep Topaz Carbuncle out and say the same thing haha. I use Obey often just so I get the best timing out of Contagion, once it drops I put her to Sic with a Rouse or Spur, and do everything else, Obey before Contagion is back, then repeat.

If you want people to min max 100% go in with a premade.

Ifrit actually does quite well if you micromanage him also. That AoE skill of his is pretty good, and I like to use him on certain things for this reason (I don't remember what it's called because I shoved it into a macro with Bane). The auto-attack delay that was causing him to fall far behind Garuda appears to have been at least partially resolved, from what I can see.

However, I'm not a SMN main, I'm a SCH main. So if you think I don't know what I'm talking about, you're probably right.

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Originally Posted by Huntington

By what they said to me, you would have thought it was apparently the opposite, I filed a report after that run, whole new levels of ***hole were reached.

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By what they said, their attitude and their playstyle.

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Originally Posted by Madoka

By what they said, their attitude and their playstyle.

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Mostly by what they said and the attitude I was getting. They started making personal insults by the end of it because I told them to boot me because I didn't want to play with uncooperative players that start swearing and such simply because of a small request.

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Originally Posted by Huntington

So I'm doing this out of curiosity...

I kindly asked him, literally said "could you please use Garuda as well" and...

... then play with a SMN that by all accounts that I've seen so far, means he's doing something wrong.

Is this our community now? I was told to do a few other things as well in a form or two of profanity simply because I suggested he use his class better, which is my main to begin with.

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Sounds like you're the one being an arse in all reality. I main ACN/SMN for solo/party play respectively. One of the biggest annoyances is when someone else starts telling you how to play. Constructive criticism seems in short supply once you get above lvl45 but everyone is eager to script out your battles to their particular liking without ever having seen you play. You should probably wait and see how things go before you email your preferred rotation for others to use.

Besides, if we're being honest, you're just posting to bitch and try to 'shame' other players into doing what you want.

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Originally Posted by Bacour

Sounds like you're the one being an arse in all reality. I main ACN/SMN for solo/party play respectively. One of the biggest annoyances is when someone else starts telling you how to play. Constructive criticism seems in short supply once you get above lvl45 but everyone is eager to script out your battles to their particular liking without ever having seen you play. You should probably wait and see how things go before you email your preferred rotation for others to use.
Besides, if we're being honest, you're just posting to bitch and try to 'shame' other players into doing what you want.

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So you main it as well, can you clearly say that I probably don't know what I'm talking about if I use it as well? You don't even have it to 50 by the looks of it either, you haven't had enough experience with late-game content to be able to say yourself if what he was doing was ineffective or not when I have plenty of experience that says otherwise. If I'm using Ifrit, I've been told dozens of times before to switch to Garuda, because as others have said themselves that the auto-attack cut-off and chasing around with Ifrit waste time, but the distance game with Garuda ensures that she's going to be getting more damage in if you use her effectively, Ifrit is what you pull out if you don't want to manage the pet at all. And like a cooperative party member should be, I realize it makes sense and simply switch to her without throwing a tantrum and cursing at people with personal insults.

And in "Expert" dungeons where there will be some DPS checks where the enemies have erratic movements like the Goblin Gliders and the second boss, Ifrit running around to chase them actually does make things take longer. It's widespread acceptance that Garuda is what you use in party content, I made this to confirm that belief. You can think I'm doing something to shame people, but I haven't mentioned any specific names or the like, I gave quotes from the person himself that full well elaborates he was a fool that doesn't use his class well. Good job attacking me personally though, if you're going to refute something not implying things about my behavior is a good start to actually discussing this like a reasonable person.

I use Ifrit when I know the dungeon and it's a pushover. He's just more fun for me.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

I use Ifrit when I know the dungeon and it's a pushover. He's just more fun for me.

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Same thoughts for me. You can get by with using him in solo content but it's wiser to just switch to Garuda otherwise if the dungeon will need a more attentive view for some parts. Low Level Duty roulettes or anything before 50? Totally, really even Titan could be used in those.

OP, you're not exactly wrong but at the end of the day, we're talking about Brayflox HM here. It isn't exactly the most difficult dungeon in the game. Your posts give the impression you were being a bit pushy and trying to get this person to play their class in a certain way. You're not going to have everything go your way in df groups. If it was seriously impacting the groups ability to finish the run, fair enough but it doesn't sound as if that was the case.

I don't see how Garuda is that much better than Ifrit for those dungeons. Just by having both on obey you gain ~15 dps from using Ifrit over Garuda, and Ifrit's AoE is more potency.

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Originally Posted by Bacour

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... How is he shaming? "Could you please use Garuda as well?" was what he said. The other guy was a dumb ass, we can see that in his comments ranging from frankly misogynistic in the first one to idiotic in the other ones. Yeah, it is annoying when people tell you how to play without knowing your class, but at the same time, if you're doing something that hinders you from excelling at your job, you're doing your job wrong.

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Originally Posted by Uninstall

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Garuda on obey doesn't have the delay Ifrit does, get bonuses from spell speed, doesn't have to chase enemies down and so has continuous DPS, doesn't take damage from cleaves/enemy centered AoE's if she's at a range, and finally contagion boosts DPS more so than Ifrit could ever hope, especially if you have all 4 DoTs up on an enemy, and even more so if they are fresh DoTs and/or RS'd DoTs.

hum... i like using ifrit most of the times when the tank is good and dont keep moving mobs around, or in bosses in small arenas or that dont move much....for trash as well, since contagion wont help much there since the fights are quite fast...

but garuda is good for fights that you have to dodge alot or the room has some hazard, so having the extra time on dots is very nice, also keeps her at a safe distance.

i say switch as you see fit... or not switch at all.... I see ifrit more as a raw damage pet, and garuda a utility pet...

but yeah..the guy should have been more... polite...

Its pretty sinple.. ifrit does more pet dmg then garuda especially in big pulls... and in a 4 man contagion is kind of useless no reason to mice manage in there.. so his dps was probably higher with ifrit then garuda since shes only good for contagion which is mostly for single pulls and bosses ifrit runs better threw trash

Personally , I think its all about preference. Both pets are good I'm sure, but some people are just better at utilizing some pets over the other. However his response was unwarranted.

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Garuda on obey doesn't have the delay Ifrit does, get bonuses from spell speed, doesn't have to chase enemies down and so has continuous DPS, doesn't take damage from cleaves/enemy centered AoE's if she's at a range, and finally contagion boosts DPS more so than Ifrit could ever hope, especially if you have all 4 DoTs up on an enemy, and even more so if they are fresh DoTs and/or RS'd DoTs.

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Ifrit doesn't suffer from delays nor does Garuda benefit from spell speed.

I'm main a SMN and I like to think I know what I'm doing. Nine times out of 10 when I go into a dungeon I always have Ifrit out first. I have 0 intention of using contagion on trash mobs, it's a waste. The fight is usually over before contagion has even expired. Ifrit has more DPS in the short run fights. A bonus to Ifrit, you can set him on sic and be done with it. There's almost 0 reason t micromanage him. The only time you would is if you wanted to control the stuns but in a fight that lasts less than a minute....I doubt anyone cares to. Garuda....really only shines in the long fight. You have to have her on obey all the time so that she doesn't use contagion at an inappropriate moment. Contagion is great in the long fight, you don't have to refresh DOT's as often, your buff like raging strikes are on longer, and you have more time to focus on other things. All things being equal, Ifrit is good for trash, Garuda is good for bosses.

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Originally Posted by Uninstall

Ifrit doesn't suffer from delays nor does Garuda benefit from spell speed.

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Wrong on both accounts. Ifrit has a .5~1s delay when attacking on Obey and Garuda benefits slightly more than you do with your spell speed, it just doesn't show in the tooltip.


Also the only time contagion is "useless" in 4 man content is if you're pulling the whole dungeon, which you only do in WP as far as I'm aware.

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Originally Posted by Madoka

Wrong on both accounts. Ifrit has a .5~1s delay when attacking on Obey.

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As far as I'm aware, this is old information and the issue was fixed a couple updates ago.

He's right. If you kill mobs before contagion can have any real effect then ifrit is technically better. At least in my testing but really the difference is negligible, I use ifrit on trash that dies fast and garuda on everything that lasts awhile just to switch things up.

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Originally Posted by Calyanare

As far as I'm aware, this is old information and the issue was fixed a couple updates ago.

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I just tested and it looks like they actually did fix it, but it must have been in a hotfix between 2.15 and now.

Garuda's still better because hardly any pull is dying in less than 30 seconds without a BLM constantly flaring it.

Eh I'm going to say you overstepped a bit. If they want to use ifrit they can use ifrit, all contagion really does is allow you to throw out a few more ruins. It's not some massive game changer it simply gives you a few more ruin spams. Although how he reacted was inappropriate you really should assume by lvl.50 he is aware of contagion.

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Originally Posted by PriyaJugulataris

... How is he shaming? "Could you please use Garuda as well?" was what he said. The other guy was a dumb ass...

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He is "shaming" by coming here and airing irrelevant grievances. He didn't like the way the othe guy ran his job. He was rebuffed when he tried to change the other guy and then came here to bitch about how the other guy wasnt running "properly" because it wasn't the OPs preference. The other guy may have been a douche, I don't know. Wasn't there. The OP WAS being an elitist.

You can't honestly debate by attacking my viewpoint with irrelevant information. I am currently lvl 49. My lack of endgame knowledge is not relevant to your attempt to change in-game, and then through forum shaming and bullying, someone elses preferred play style.

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Originally Posted by Bacour

You can't honestly debate by attacking my viewpoint with irrelevant information. I am currently lvl 49. My lack of endgame knowledge is not relevant to your attempt to change in-game, and then through forum shaming and bullying, someone elses preferred play style.

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I can't? That's the equivalent manner of leveling a tank or healing class to level 10 then saying you know enough about it to give advice and orders to people using it in the 50s. You can't seriously suggest you not even using it in end-game means you have a thorough enough grasp on the class to deduct if I'm incorrect or not. The fact of me telling him how to use it or not in the end itself is irrelevant when I'm aware of how to use it much more warily than yourself. Trying to throw off that point is simple avoidance of something you can't really account for, so you're liable to slander me instead to cover your ass.

It's all you have been doing, you try to make me out as something I've never been in any game genre and use that as the whole backing for what I've said. Most who've actually used the class to a thorough degree would argue that by using Ifrit somewhere you shouldn't, you're using the class wrong. Most by this point know that using Garuda is the better choice to be able to optimize and use the class appropriately, sorry you can't see that because it's not even at level 50 yet for you.

Ifrit does about 10 more dps than garuda (85 vs 75 for me) ever since the delay was fixed. Can make an argument for contagion but in 4 man dungeons nobody really gives a ****.

In coil accuracy might be an issue, will run tests tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by Seobit

Ifrit does about 10 more dps than garuda (85 vs 75 for me) ever since the delay was fixed. Can make an argument for contagion but in 4 man dungeons nobody really gives a ****.

In coil accuracy might be an issue, will run tests tomorrow.

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Ifrit may do more DPS than garuda.. but hes meele.. not enough survivabilty to survive all the content

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Originally Posted by luvmichan

Ifrit may do more DPS than garuda.. but hes meele.. not enough survivabilty to survive all the content

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wut. Pets take so little damage as is and sustain is like regen on crack.

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Originally Posted by luvmichan

Ifrit may do more DPS than garuda.. but hes meele.. not enough survivabilty to survive all the content

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That's fight specific. Turn 8 for example ifrit would have no issue staying alive.

Garuda's Contagion is worth about 10.2 DPS in a generic single target / no Raging Strikes situation. Bane/RS synergy increase this depending on the situation. However, Ifrit also has AOE advantages.

Contagion is only "amazing" when you use Raging Strikes with it. Otherwise, all it does is let you cast a couple extra Ruins. On the other hand, Garuda doesn't have travel times to her target, she won't get hit by cleaves or AoEs casted on melee DPS either, which saves you Sustain uses.

If Ifrit did a tad more damage and was a bit chunkier, we'd see some more flexibility in usage. As of now, the choices are so heavily one-sided that its hardly a choice at all. Also, why does Radiant Shield even exist? It should be casted on a party member or flat out replaced.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

wut. Pets take so little damage as is and sustain is like regen on crack.

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Having to use sustain at all cuts into your DPS. and it's only 8% healing for 3 ticks and does not stack. 300hp a tick, three times over 10 seconds is far from regen on crack.

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Originally Posted by Madoka

Having to use sustain at all cuts into your DPS. and it's only 8% healing for 3 ticks and does not stack. 300hp a tick, three times over 10 seconds is far from regen on crack.

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24% over 10 seconds is pretty boss, but whatever, maybe it's not regen on crack but it has a 1 second cast time and takes away from like, half a ruin (if you're keeping your dots up). It's really not that much of a DPS loss... Also you usually only need one to keep it alive, and usually once per fight if you need to cast it at all.

Anyway, basically what I mean is that there are only a handful of fights where I would chose Garuda over Ifrit for survivability purposes.