I love how SE is handling the echo buff and nerf of content

Not kidding.

First of all, i think most reasonnable people know that nerfing content in a vertical progression mmo is a necessary evil. What do you expect ? Turn 6 to 9 being accessible to 5% of the player base for the next year or so ? SE can't keep up designing stuff for a very small minority of people. It is not even good for progression fc, as it would make recruiting a problem at some point. Anyway, let's move on.

That being said, i simply LOVE the way SE is doing it in this game. First of all, the echo buff is something that is already in the lore of the game, and makes sense. Second of all, it allow for progressive nerfing: instead of just nerfing something in oblivion, you now can do some tries without the echo ticking, and then it will ramp up allowing you, hopefully, to beat the old content exactly at the right difficulty. If you have a group that need 3 stack of echo, well here you go, you don't have a 5 echo buff nerfed content right at start. You also can easily switch between echo or not by disabling the buff.

Second of all, the way the echo has been implemented for 2.2 is extremeley smart and thoughtful. HM primals and stuff like this are old news. Who cares about them ? Some people are still blocked at titan hm, and that is plain wrong. 50% buff should allow duty finder groups that are willing to put an hour into the fight to kill it eventually in most cases, and it is a good thing. Ex primals are getting a 25% hp and damage boost. This is not a nerf in oblivion. It WILL help a lot people, but if you can't dodge landslide or plumes you are still going to be destroyed. Dps checks are made easier, but there is plenty to plan still in titan and ifrit ex, and i don't think all DF and PF groups will succeed, far from it. But the chance of doing so will be far greater, that's for sure.

At last, regarding coil: First of all there is a 2 week wait at start of 2.2. This is a head start for anyone that kileld twintania without the echo buff. It is a nice boon and compromise, that won't break more casual players morale, but still give a "reward" for players that did manage to beait it beforehand. The gradual lift through increase echo stacks seems very well done too. Twintania won't be a cakewalk anytime soon -- even with 30% hp and damage boost, people will still have to go though dives, conflags, fireball placement, dreadknight, twisters, hatches. It will certainly help to kill snake in time, conflags before they blow up, survive DS and beat the enrage timer, but it won't be super easy either. It will also only reach this state in 2 months. Doing it this way naturally ease more and more people into the more difficult fights. By 2.4, they will release new coil turns, and will probably nerf TT into oblivion like they did with HM bosses. You thus get: current content, that only the most dedicated clear (5% of the player base max). Recent content, that is gradually being made easier over several months, to allow the next 20% or so of players to progress. And old content, 6 month old at least, which is accessible to most through a moderate effort.

I find all this to be extremely well executed overall, and making much sense. Looking at other threads in the GD forum about how people hate those nerfs, i wonder: Am i the only one feeling that way ?

nope, you are not alone. i like what they are doin with echo buff as well ^^

I really hope this echo buff helps to reduce the amount of idiots who ragequits after first wipe...

You make some good points here

Good points, that which shall not be named started doing this in their king expansion because they saw the small amount of players that seen the content. Makes it easier for new players as well to come in, get geared, and see latest content.

It wont make any difference. You'll never have the buff because you'll be forced to leave duty after everyone rage quitting. People want flawless wins on their first attempt, this isn't going to change that.

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Originally Posted by Akira_Tenshi

It wont make any difference. You'll never have the buff because you'll be forced to leave duty after everyone rage quitting. People want flawless wins on their first attempt, this isn't going to change that.

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Not quite. The reason most people rage quit is because to them, it's "obvious" that no matter how many times you try, the actual team won't perform well enough. The echo buff makes it so that the output is increased, thus improving the result with a similar effort.

But that's not all, it will give a boost to morale for those that are genuinely trying, but simply can't do it for a number of reasons that sometimes isn't even because of them.

The thing is that it will not be only those buffs, but we'll also have ilvl 100 and 110 items, and crafted ilvl 90.


So it will be Echo bonus + better equipment. Hell, I think I'll enter Titan HM with a warrior just to see him hit 15,000 HP haha

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Originally Posted by Elvin

So it will be Echo bonus + better equipment. Hell, I think I'll enter Titan HM with a warrior just to see him hit 15,000 HP haha

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I know is not the same since there is leve sync, but i really love to join random duties and fight story mode primals. At least for me is hilarious to fight against titan.... stomps: 1 hit, 200. MUAHAHAHAHA!!! uuuh, wait, wait... post-heart phase stomps: 2 hits, pfffff hahahaha!!!

people leave mostly because isnt fast enough, they forget that there is a whole mechanic to be set in order to succeed but hey what is the point in beating a dead horse....This nerf and I agree is will thought and I hope it will work fine.

Mei

One of the problems we all seem to agree on is people ragequiting after one attempt. They're rewarding multiple attempts. Hopefully this promotes a more cooperative community.

Sometimes i join random primal fights to help people and it makes me sad to see that we fail because "uuugh, sooo close. We need just a bit dps to win...", but we have to disband because there is no chance (i know, i know: "get better gear", but sometimes there is a really good attitude and it sucks that there is no reward for it...). At least this will help them to clear it

Agree I think its important that they provide a way for less skilled players to completely the old content otherwise they will lose them to more casual games.

Also as someone else mentioned above it will make players less likely to get frustrated and leaving a party on death as the next time will be easier.

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Originally Posted by Casper

..without the echo ticking, and then it will ramp up allowing you, hopefully, to beat the old content exactly at the right difficulty...

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Unless the checking the Echo buff off makes the monster use abilities it had before it got nerf or spawn adds that were there before the nerf... then no...it is not the exact difficulty.

Tho the nerf does not bother me, i enjoy the fact i did it before the nerf and not got things handed to me.

But feels wrong for a 3-5 month old content to get nerf'd.. even before first expansion.

Just gotta see how this game goes for a yr.. which is in about 6 months.

Yes this is a move in the right direction IMHO. I don't see any reason to forbid players from even trying T6+. This will keep everyone happy, those who never tried Coil will have a blast farming it as it is a very well made "dungeon" IMHO. All old blocked contents are accessible and should be more inviting to new and old players alike :).

As for those whom are looking for a challenge, T6-T9 & Leviathan Ex says "Hi".

I'd hate people to get upset to even more of a buff for echo but.. I wish it would incrementally slow down some of the boss's actions. How long you have to get out of plumes, landslide, how long you have to get out of feathers, how long to get out of the way of dashs. I know that's like making it easy, but I feel like some players that can't seem to react fast enough no matter how many tries, needs that extra edge to complete content. As a joke I would like to suggest they add a guard rail to titan HM/EX after dieing 10 times, or when the 20min warning occurs. I think that the echo is the right thing to do for players that need it. But at the same time, I feel they need a lot more difficult content available, before they start making it easy cheese. I'll gladly be taking full advantage of the buffs to get stuff done for my other jobs. And I'll likely be using it to get past T5. I've done twin only a few times, but from what I've experienced not many people can get past conflag, idk if the buff is going to help with that but we'll see. Being unlocked content will likely help it a lot more then the echo buff will.

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Originally Posted by Simaril

One of the problems we all seem to agree on is people ragequiting after one attempt. . .

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I'd like to play devil's advocate for these people (yes, I am calling them devils). The reason people do this is VERY RARELY because the group didn't one shot the trial. It's because it is either:

A. Obvious that the PF text criteria was not met to their standards (i.e. "Know the fight, this is not a learning group" and people stand right next to pillars in Garuda X)
B. Obvious that the skill level present or the combination of skill and gear is going to make the going more difficult than they are willing to deal with, and they decide their time will be better spent elsewhere (i.e. both healers have 3400 HP in Titan X, and the SCH doesn't use Aetherflow)

Most of those people get frustrated and leave because a "clear group" was advertised, or a "farm group," and then the group was not able to deliver on the promise in a big and obvious way. I will sometimes join a PF group with a FC mate that needs help clearing something and be in vent, and make comments in the first 45 seconds of the fight like, "This group has no shot at all of downing this."

I won't leave until at least 3 solid attempts are given and it is still clear that group is doomed to fail, but I can certainly understand the frustration of those people who might do that - they simply probably care less about what others think of them, lol.

@ OP - Agreed. I also don't think the buffs are going to make THAT big of a difference. As you said, you are still going to get smoked by stacked plumes, 2 bombs, ifrit slides, not killing spiny, landslides, WWs, etc. DPS checks are the only thing that are going to be trivialized, and they were going to get trivialized with everyone having access to i100 tome gear in the first place. You will be able to be iLVL 95ish within 2-3 weeks if you try anyways (probably).

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Originally Posted by Drako

How long you have to get out of plumes, landslide, how long you have to get out of feathers, how long to get out of the way of dashs. I know that's like making it easy, but I feel like some players that can't seem to react fast enough no matter how many tries, needs that extra edge to complete content.

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I like this. I know some people that couldn't clear titan hard by themselves because they had a lot of lag or they couldn't react fast enough. More time to avoid aoes/beat dps checks if would be nice...

Also, i know it's "extreme" or "really hard to beat" (like twintania), but.... why the hell all "hard" battles have a "rage timer"? Hell, this instance has 60 minutes, i should be able to beat it the way i want no matter the time it takes... Maybe i'm wrong, but it's like in FFXIII, when Baldanders casts "Doom" on you because you're killing him too slow... what's wrong with it if i want to take it easy? ><

I love it. Casuals get easier access to content that is hard to do without a static and hardcore players get a new raid and some new non-echo extreme primals. It's a good way to give content to every type of player.

Great Post OP. Its a nice change of pace, and a welcome one. Keep on posting please :D

Especially the part where you mention it can be turned "OFF" so if people don't like it, it's totally fine :D

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

I love it. Casuals get easier access to content that is hard to do without a static and hardcore players get a new raid and some new non-echo extreme primals. It's a good way to give content to every type of player.

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And even on the older content, they can turn the echo off if they want to.

My own progress group is pretty close to killing Twin now and I'm pretty sure we will before the echo is implemented.
But I will be very happy with it when we get to the point where we start carrying the other people in our FC through.

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Originally Posted by Casper

First of all, the echo buff is something that is already in the lore of the game, and makes sense.

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Feelings about the nerf aside, The Echo used to be an amazing plot device that created such an intricate, interlaced storyline that one of the main focusses of these forums was to discuss exactly what it did and how it affected us. The lore behind it was awesome; time-travelling without realising and having a tangible effect on the past when we weren't supposed to be able to was the very tip of the iceberg that hinted at a much deeper and darker origin that was slowly being revealed up until the moment Dalamud opened.

Now it's been written off as a flashback tool and a buff-if-you-fail algorithm. I wish it had been called something else. It's merely an echo of The Echo, nothing more.

I love the fact that companies have started helping players who through a lack of skill, experience, no endgame FC, or gear have been unable to see the content. It's not about entitlement it's about getting what we paid for. We are paying a sub to see all the game has to offer. I don't mind waiting till the next patch to see it as long as I get there.

This way the hardcore gets the ego boost from beating it before the buff and others get to see the rest of the story that they paid for after all no one in their right mind would pay full price for a book knowing they would only get to read half because they don't have enough experience to read the other half. :D

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Originally Posted by Simaril

Hopefully this promotes a more cooperative community.

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Sadly even a echo buff won't promote a cooperative community its been gone since launch.

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Originally Posted by Mjollnir

Feelings about the nerf aside, The Echo used to be an amazing plot device that created such an intricate, interlaced storyline that one of the main focusses of these forums was to discuss exactly what it did and how it affected us. The lore behind it was awesome; time-travelling without realising and having a tangible effect on the past when we weren't supposed to be able to was the very tip of the iceberg that hinted at a much deeper and darker origin that was slowly being revealed up until the moment Dalamud opened.

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I remember in Xenoblade Chronicles, you had that strange power allowing you to see the future, that would be used in the gameplay to give you information when strong attacks would come, so you could interrupt them if you reacted quickly enough. They could have definitely do the same here and explained the red marking for aoes as a power of the echo, feel like such a shame now :p

Unfortunately, even though you'll be able to disable it. Asking if people want to disable it, will be a kin to asking people if they want to try rot on T2. I'm actually happy T1-5 is unlocked now, I might actually finally find a group in PF that is willing to try rot. I've always wanted to be in a group that beat it the real way. But never was able to. My static group never was willing to because of numerous, albeit decent, reasons. Overall I am happy about the echo buff going into all these contents.

My only real concern is, and I forgot to mention this in my previous post, is titan Ex. The echo buff could actually make that fight harder. Their are those phases that get messed up if you are too fast DPS. Like when he jumps for heart phase, if your too fast(or too slow depending on who you ask) Titan will jail two people when he jumps. Your definitely going to see this more after the update. I honestly don't understand why SE doesn't have the jails break up when he jumps, just like it does in HM. I have a sneaky feeling they may fix that in this update. IDK why, I hope I'm right.

Most people who have issues with "The Echo" buff don't care that it's making things easier on *them*, but that it's making it easier for other players. They don't like the fact that someone can get a shiny thing they got months ago, but with less effort.

Some people never learn that it's not all about the stuff you have, but how you play.

Would like to get done with my 1st Coil farming before the first Echo increment, but this will make getting the Primal jewelry I still need much easier

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Originally Posted by Andevom

Most people who have issues with "The Echo" buff don't care that it's making things easier on *them*, but that it's making it easier for other players. They don't like the fact that someone can get a shiny thing they got months ago, but with less effort.

Some people never learn that it's not all about the stuff you have, but how you play.

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Yeah i find that sad too. I mean don't get me wrong. I'm happy with some bones, a bit of head start for example, won't spit on it. But in the end people should understand that more people experiencing content means they can do more content like this in the future; if 5% of people experience it ever, then there's not much point in delivering new stuff every 3 months.

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

people leave mostly because isnt fast enough, they forget that there is a whole mechanic to be set in order to succeed but hey what is the point in beating a dead horse....This nerf and I agree is will thought and I hope it will work fine.

Mei

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Says the guy still in darklight cowl.