Hi everyone!
Since the developers have expressed before that loot rules are meant to be determined by the group before an event (and can be a bannable offense if not followed), I wanted to go over the rules I've set up with my group, existing rules, and maybe get some feedback on what other people do. I'll start with some basic breakdowns of what I know personally. This is not a complete list. There may be some intricacies I miss, but this is for brevity's sake.
Existing Rules I Know Of:
Need/Greed - The basic rule laid out by the game. If a player is on a job that is able to use the item, the Need button is un-ghosted. Otherwise, everyone has the option to Greed or Pass.
Pros: A player who is able to use an item has the ability to take priority over someone who can't in the immediate dungeon.
Cons: Doesn't take into account people who use multiple jobs and may "need" an item for another job.
DKP (Dragon Kill Points) or Point System - As members participate in group events, they earn "points", which is usually tallied by the leader. When an item drops, a player may spend their points to bid on the ability to lot on an item. This system can be used by almost any in-game loot system.
Pros - A fair system that allows people to get the things they want, based on the amount of time they put into the game. Allows for multi-class lotting, as you can pick any item you want.
Cons - Puts a lot of control in the leader's hands, so you have to trust them. Also, increases motivation to go to events, which can be alienating for a lot of people.
FFXI's Lot System - I'm not sure what else to call this, but the base lot system FFXI uses. An item drops, and everyone is able to lot or pass on it, and everyone is able to see who lotted what for how much.
Pros - Multi-job, and group adaptable.
Cons - Large risk of ninja looting, able to kick while loots occur (good and bad I suppose)
My Lot Rules for FFXIV
Reasoning - After looking at existing systems, I tried to find a way to balance a few different ideas. Firstly, it has to be fair. This can be defined in terms of play-time, amount of usable jobs, and overall gameplay. Secondly, it has to account for multiple jobs. This game encourages having multiple jobs at 50 and using them in different content. The need arises where a member wants loot for their "main" job, but are not needed on that job in a given week/event. I try to account for this. Finally, it has to not feel like you are pushing a player too much to get on. You want to have members participate, but you don't want this to turn into a job. That is not fun for a lot of people.
The rules - At the beginning of an event, everyone picks 1 Job. For the duration of the event, that is the one job you are able to primarily lot on. This can be the job you are currently using, or a job you need gear for but we don't need for that event. When a drop occurs, the following order is triggered:
1. Everyone who picked the job that applies to item is announced.
2. Those players confirm or deny that they want the item. This is to account for duplicate drops, or better alternatives (i.e. myth piece happens to be > allagan)
3. All primary looters that confirm, Greed against each other (unless it happens to be both are able to Need).
4. If all the primary looters deny the drop, everyone who has that job at 50 is able to Greed.
5. Free lot if none of the above are met.
This has been working fairly well for us for a few months. We've had to tweak here and there as we go along, but I've received pretty positive feedback for it. Some people find it too complicated for pickups, but that is the trade-off for fairness. I would like to hear some other systems people have come up with, and see if it would apply to ours, or if there are criticisms of this to help us improve.
Thank you for reading!
Custom Loot Rules
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03-19-2014, 11:59 PMClavaatCustom Loot Rules
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03-20-2014, 12:20 AMLemon8or
In my group we just discuss what piece will give the group best chance to beat the next turn. The person that the group decided would be best to have the gear will be the sole roller on the gear. If the main job already has it, people with that job at 50 greed off.
Our team comp is: WAR PLD WHM SCH BRD DRG BLM BLM/MNK so at most there will be 2 people rolling if the gear is needed.
We rarely PUG so this works out nicely. -
03-20-2014, 12:46 AMClavaatSimple enough, but for our purposes this seems to be exclusively with intent of progressing as one job. That may work great for your group, but for us, we have a lot of members with the same roles. We weren't exactly built to be a team focused on one goal (this goes way back), so when we started doing bigger events, by default some of us had to play jobs we needed as opposed to really wanted to play. As people level alts, it gets easier and we might try to change to something more akin to what you've got here. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon8or
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03-20-2014, 12:52 AMLemon8orTrue enough. I myself, the PLD and the 2nd BLM started out as MNK but then we changed to tanks and BLM to progress. We only got gears to invest on the job our group needed so once that job is geared out, we started branching back to the job we loved initially. My group was built with trust between FC members that have played since launch and loot isn't such a big deal for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clavaat
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03-20-2014, 01:13 AMClavaatThat's awesome! Our group has seen plenty of bumps from RL, so week to week we sometimes have to pick up new people from PF or a new person in LS. The goal is to keep it fair for old and new people just joining us. Generally, the rule works out that most people who join pick the job they are currently on anyway. You never really know how some people will feel when they enter with a new team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon8or
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03-20-2014, 01:51 AMMeiUshu
based on the time spend in the game ? so casual players will never (rarely) get anything since their time is practically wellll inferior to most ? how is this fair?
how is that fair ? the only fair system for ALL is for all to bid or not bid, no need /creed, just bid or pass. THAT is the fairest way...everybody gets a chance and is purely based on luck. If you never get anything you can blame your luck, nothing else.
maybe I missed somethign though
Mei -
03-20-2014, 01:58 AMLemon8orThe DKP system usually considers only the raid with the contested items that matter. For example, Coil once a week. If you show up once a week, you get 1 point. After say 5 weeks, everyone will have 5 points if they all participate (which is around a night or two per week). If a person really want that loot, they can bid all their points in it and get the item (of course RNG will decide who actually get the item if multiple people bid the same number of points). This is fair as in it'll give people that participate in the same raid every week a chance at something they really want instead of relying on luck. To me it seems fair cause you all did put the work into running it every week and to get nothing out of it cause of RNG is not. Of course it's unfair for random PUG but no system is perfect and the DKP system is mainly used for static group.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeiUshu
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03-20-2014, 02:00 AMClavaatI'm assuming you're referring to the DKP explanation? I was just listing it out as a reference. As I said in my post, Fairness is a factor that can be determined many ways, and is often group-specific. For some people, yes, participation and time spent are more important than luck. I personally don't feel that way, which is why I allow for 1 job to be picked. This way, people who are on alts are still able to improve their main job, but it is not completely random. With lockout items in particular, a player can be waiting a long time before an item they actually want drops. There may be other ways to balance it, and I'm not saying one way is completely right or wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeiUshu
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03-20-2014, 02:06 AMFlickalado
I think it was City of Heroes, or LOTRO, or both, that let the party leader change the loot roll rules. You can, for example, set it to greed only, or need per job only, or have it auto roll to someone. It was simple and clean. It's something that can't be changed once you enter an instance.
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03-20-2014, 02:16 AMClavaatI know you could do that in LotRO. I don't necessarily mean to change the existing game system, as I don't know the programming behind it, but just what other people do if they don't like Need/Greed. That being said, I would like the option to change lotting rules :x Till then, work with what we got!Quote:
Originally Posted by Flickalado
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03-20-2014, 03:33 AMOrganizationXIllThis is all I want. Going into an instance you personally choose (from your leveled jobs) what you want to need on. Change the current system to work this way and leave out all the other stuff he said. If you don't want the item just pass. Simple and allows for a SCH to run and need on BRD stuff. (I want to do this specifically)Quote:
Originally Posted by Clavaat
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03-20-2014, 03:39 AMClavaatThis wouldn't work with the current implementation because you don't know who else passed unless they say so, which may be too late. The drop will then go to no one unless it was Greeded by someone who wasn't supposed to. I do it this way so that you know exactly who was looking for specific pieces, and whether or not they wanted it. This thread isn't about changing the current system (which admittedly should be tweaked), but about how different groups do their lotting.Quote:
Originally Posted by OrganizationXIll
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03-20-2014, 03:42 AMOscillate_Wildly
As many have said, my group has a similar looting rule where the job you bring to coil is your primary. If a piece drops for MNK, and our MNK needs it, they get it. However if it drops again, and no one has MNK as their secondary roll option, anyone in the party who has a MNK at 50 can roll on it.
We don't get a ton of useless items, most everything goes to a person who needs it and repeats wind up going to someone who equally needs it on their sub class. -
03-20-2014, 05:27 AMC-croftLoot rules would be nice, but honestly, I only came into this thread because I wanted to see the horror of a train wreck known as Oscillate_wildly's signature. I want to stop looking but can't do it. Gods help me!Quote:
Originally Posted by Oscillate_Wildly
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03-20-2014, 08:00 AMGontrant_Sorel
no matter how much you try. you won't find a "fair" system to loot. ever.
all systems have their advantages and their problems.
personally on games were you have your own class I think need before greed is the best but is far from perfect. on a game like this where everybody can have all classes it becomes a lot more troublesome because while you may not "need" it for your actual/main/whatever class you may "need" it for other classes. and let's not deny it. once glamours arrive some people will "need" gear not for the stats but for the unique look it has.
I'm sure some can come with quite good ways to solve this. I too have mine.
the problem is that most people tend to agree to those solutions only when they benefit from it. and label as unfair anything else.
I have even seen people agreeing and using one solution when it meant they got the loot and find excuses and complains when, the next time, another player got the item. the most used sentence is always "It's not the same" even when it's painful evident that it is the exact same.
sincerely... the only way to find a "fair loot system" is to go always only with people you can talk and trust but, evidently, this also poses a problem. not everybody has always available such a party.
anything else needs to be solved based on circumstances and truth to be told I would prefer if the game masters use their time on other things (like gil sellers)
only thing they can do that comes to my mind is to let us blacklist people with whom we don't want to party again. -
03-20-2014, 08:10 AMQuiz
DKP needs to die horribly in a fire. 400 point RDM hats anyone? Drama llama THF hands?!?!