[Suggestion] Blm Firestarter: Let it stack to two for uninterrupted casts

The black mage's firestarter proc, which allows for an instantaneous cast of fire III, is based on fire I hits. By the time the server registers the hit for fire I, the black mage will already be casting another spell. As a result, black mages have to interrupt their spell casting in order to make use of the firestarter proc. There are multiple issues with having to do that:

1) The black mage has to deal with the global cooldown resulting from the interrupted spell, so he can't use it right away, delaying the use of the firestarter proc to instantly cast fire III.

2) The player may have been in the middle of casting blizzard III to switch over to three stacks of umbral ice to recover mana. A black mage that fails to interrupt the blizzard III cast fast enough will lose the bulk of firestarter's benefits because he will no longer have the damage boost from three stacks of astral fire. Using the proc right away would just delay his mana recovering and deal an underwhelming amount of damage.

A simple solution to this problem would be to allow firestarter to stack up to two times. So say I cast "fire I" and it gives me firestarter while I am in the middle of casting another "fire I". With the current system, if I gain firestarter again from the second cast of "fire I", I lose the last instance of the firestarter proc. In the system I'm suggesting, if the second cast of "fire I" triggers an instance of the firestarter proc, that instance of firestarter is saved, and I would then cast "fire III" twice using the firestarter procs I have saved up.

The other change I would recommend would be to alter the firestarter proc so that it also causes the next cast of Fire III to deal damage as though the player had three stacks of astral fire up in addition to its usual benefits. That way, if he goes through with a cast of Blizzard III after a firestarter proc went off, he can still gain the full spike damage from the instant cast, 0 mana Fire III that firestarter provides.

Both these changes would allow the black mage to continue his casting seemlessly without having to constantly interrupt himself every time a firestarter proc shows up.

So why am I making this suggestion?

Black mages and casters in general have a queue for casting spells that lets the player start casting his next spell before the last one is done, leading to a very smooth basic rotation of spells. Then out of nowhere comes the firestarter proc and I have to hit the breaks. Its mildly jarring and annoying, and the fact that it doesn't stack with itself at least once means that I absolutely have to interrupt my next cast to use it properly. As a black mage, I want my spell casting to flow seemlessly from one spell to the next and give me enough time to react to any procs or spell effect durations that might be coming to an end. The black mage has to plan what he is casting next, and firestarter comes out of nowhere and disrupts my casting.

Or, just don't interrupt your casts, IE: You cast Fire I, it lands, begin casting another Fire I (during which firestarter procs), let it finish and use proc right after. I've encountered many BLMs who have output more DPS adopting this. The current system is fine, you are just doing it wrong in my experience and others. Can you upload a video of what you are talking about? when you say you are canceling casts, I'm picturing this lol? (IE, why would you cancel when your next Fire I is about to go off anyway, being that Firestarter is instant, they will pretty much land at the exact same time, with the same GCD, as opposed to breaking them up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6FHWhmtCbY

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Originally Posted by Fendred

So why am I making this suggestion?

Black mages and casters in general have a queue for casting spells that lets the player start casting his next spell before the last one is done, leading to a very smooth basic rotation of spells. Then out of nowhere comes the firestarter proc and I have to hit the breaks. Its mildly jarring and annoying, and the fact that it doesn't stack with itself at least once means that I absolutely have to interrupt my next cast to use it properly. As a black mage, I want my spell casting to flow seemlessly from one spell to the next and give me enough time to react to any procs or spell effect durations that might be coming to an end. The black mage has to plan what he is casting next, and firestarter comes out of nowhere and disrupts my casting.

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This is why you DONT interrupt your cast immediately, you let your cast finish THEN use the proc, giving you a whole 2 seconds or more to plan on using it lol, and continues the seemless flow, it feels "jarring and annoying" to you because you should be doing it another way.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3FkrM0QTIU for example

Have you ever considered that the rate at which the devs want you to be able to cast Fire III from firestarter is actually lower than the proc rate, knowing how the system actually works?

X, but it can proc multiple times in a row. If I cast fire I and it procced, which my computer will not register right away due to latency between the server and my location, then I will be in the middle of casting a second fire I. If that second fire I lands and procs it again, I've effectively lost the first firestarter proc. My suggestion is to create a safety net so that the black mage doesn't lose any firestarter procs that happen to get triggered back to back. My second suggestion is just to do the same thing for when a firestarter procced and he is in the middle of casting blizzard III.

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Originally Posted by Riichi

Have you ever considered that the rate at which the devs want you to be able to cast Fire III from firestarter is actually lower than the proc rate, knowing how the system actually works?

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Irrelevant. The design of the black mages abilities should not interfere with one another during gameplay, especially when they are supposed to work together.

That's still it though. It's part of the design. The game isn't forcing you to use another Fire I after you get the proc; It's your own choice what you do with it. Your perception of the way it works is off.

Let's pretend the chance of a firestarter proc was 80%. You'd be using about 40% of the time (I'm no statistics expert) between Fire I casts assuming you use it after the next cast during Fire I spam. You're basically saying this is what you want, a free Fire III with an 80% proc rate to boost your dps (which would completely break BLM's). Though I'm sure with this you'd still be unhappy because you don't get to use the Firestarter proc followed by the Fire I it stemmed from. It's basically boiling down to you feel icky because you don't get to spam it ASAP, and that's just your own problem with the class design.

I agree with Riichi, you're trying to make the most of your rotations without sacrificing a free over-powered nuke so that you can sustain high DPS without messing up that rotation because of latency or whatever.
What I tend to do is if it proc's after I have begun casting another spell is I switch my rotation, immediately cast blizz 3, followed by a re-cast of thunder3 to reset the DoT (either with swiftcast or on it's own depending on how much mana I want) then immediately go straight back into nuking with my firestarter fire3, this means the rotation has simply changed. Eventually you're going to run out of mana from your fire1 nukes anyway and have to switch it over so why not make use of the proc as it comes up instead of trying to save it somehow?

I understand that you're trying to be helpful along with Richi, but you are both assuming I am not already doing what you are suggesting. Of course I do those things, but those are the situations I'm referring to that end up making me feel like I've wasted a proc. If I know that I'm not getting the most out of a firestarter proc or just lose the proc completely, as a player, stopping my current cast is actually me trying to make best use of it because that appears to be the right decision. The current mechanics are deceptive to new players.

Think of it this way: A player who plays black mage enough is going to eventually notice that firestarter can proc in the middle of casting his next spell, and that another firestarter proc can happen at the end of his next cast. To the new player, the choice is unclear, or he actually makes the wrong choice by trying to do the right thing (stops his casts and uses the proc, slowing his dps). They need to alter how these abilities work a bit like what I stated above so that the player will intuitively figure out the correct way to manage the procs.

I'm not asking for help on how to dps, I'm saying that to help out new players, the firestarter proc needs to be changed slightly.

Or new players could just ask.

Hmm, we were all new players once, and did not have issues learning, it's been fine for the last 5 months, it will continue to be fine.

I can appreciate that it would be nice to be able to use every single firestarter proc, and maybe allowing them to stack would be nice, however, I don't personally feel that it's necessary. Making all fire IIIs that are cast with firestarter receive the AF3 buff even if you cast it during UI is counterintuitive and goes against the mechanics of the job. I'd say some of these cahnges were needed if BLM damage was on average noticeably lower than other DPS, but it isn't, so effectively buffing their damage output by changing some mechanics around doesn't seem worthwhile.

1. Don't interrupt ANY of your casts for a Proc (Fire or Thunder); you lose dps when you interrupt and you mess with your GCD as you previously stated. Complete the cast and THEN hit the proc.

2. Even if you are mid cast of Blizzard III you still do not interrupt the cast; you will once again lose dps and mana regen time. Continue to cast the Blizzard III for the mana regen, wait 2 ticks, and hit the Firestarter proc which will give you an instant cast of Fire III and give you 3 stacks of Umbral Fire. This is the way the mechanics work so you have less down time and more dps.

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Originally Posted by Wasabi-Guy

2. Even if you are mid cast of Blizzard III you still do not interrupt the cast; you will once again lose dps and mana regen time. Continue to cast the Blizzard III for the mana regen, wait 2 ticks, and hit the Firestarter proc which will give you an instant cast of Fire III and give you 3 stacks of Umbral Fire. This is the way the mechanics work so you have less down time and more dps.

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Don't wait 2 ticks, add your thunder dot and if there's still time then use Blizzard 1, depending on how long it's been since the last tick.
Then transpose and use the F3 proc

Yeah I don't think it's needed to change the mechanics for this ability. I think the reason this ability does not stack is simply, it would make the job slightly overpowered and it's small things like this that can push certain jobs just over the edge of others.

Let's say they did change it, you would probably hold onto those proc's for big spike damage, which not only will give you a slight advantage others other, it would most likely draw unwanted hate. Most people I have seen on BLM's neglect Quelling Strikes but that said, if you hit raging strikes and get 2 crit firestarter 3's for what, 1800 if you're pretty well geared?, then managed to squeeze in another 2-3 fire 1's that could also spike over 1k and let's say you have a thunder3 thundercloud proc and there's another 1k dmg. 8kDMG (a rough estimate) from 1 person is pretty damn high for spike over approx 20 seconds.

People would most likely up BLM's on their chosen list a little bit more.

Personally I would like to see a similar ability for ice, a free crit from blizz3 can do nice damage and especially for the times when you don't calculate your MP properly and have to switch using transpose.

To be honest, I agree with the OP. I've never known a rotation that forces you to miss procs like BLM has to.
I don't think it's intuitive design, it doesn't matter if people can figure it out.

I mean, it's not a huge issue but all it needs is a tweak. F3's proc rate can be reduced to 20% to compensate.
I will miss though, that if I ever messed up the rotation a Fire I has such a large chance to proc F3 I could easily get my stacks back.
That's a fringe scenario though, so meh.

I don't necessarily agree with interrupting your cast for a firestarter proc, but I do agree with some of what you're saying, especially letting firestarter procs stack with each other.
An example is when you're casting fire 1, you get a proc at the end of it and you begin to cast another fire 1 ready to use up the proc. But then you get another firestarter proc at the end of that second fire 1. That there is a wasted firestarter proc, which by all means should've counted as a second proc. You've won the dice roll, you've got the proc, it will still take up a GCD, why shouldn't you be able to use that second firestarter proc?
Tbh, I think firestarter procs should really proc right at the beginning of your fire 1 cast anyway, the proc would disappear if you haven't finished casting fire 1 and you can only use it after casting fire 1. Therefore giving you a chance to react to that firestarter proc, instead of reacting to it during your next fire 1 cast.

We are talking about increasing the utility of a latent ability that already potentially gives us a free, instant-cast spell.












That's what we are talking about.

Seems like overkill to me.

I've gone full rotations withing getting a Firestarter proc before. I don't think it's the end of the world that you might potentially miss a proc because you continued to push a Fire cast through.

Why is this an issue with BLMs when you cant correctly use firestarter?

I started off interrupting my Fire1 casts to use Firestarter. I naturally stopped doing that (and instead just using it whenever it's up and im not already casting) because it is indeed clunky and way too tedious. It makes the most out of your MP bar, but it doesn't do much for your dps.


The only time i'll interrupt for Firestarter is:

a) The enemy is about to die anyway and I want to keep Astral 3 up longer to move inbetween groups

or

b) I started casting Fire1 directly out of Umbral 3 in the hopes that i'll get a firestarter proc on the first/second try.



Firestarter in itself is a pretty ridiculous DPS buff compared to any other class. I'm pretty sure it's working as intended.

I thought of this, but only as a trait to add to black mages when they raise the level cap. I'd also like to see Thunder IV, as an AOE, and a spell that cuts your max hp to 1/3 or so and gives you 25-40% more damage during its 30 second duration. You'd have to time it damn well, but flaring would shoot over 3k damage, and at that level you should be.

I got fire starter literally yesterday and had absolutely no problem with it. Took me about 3 minutes to figure out the delay and then another 2 to realise it can actually be helpful. As other people have said you obviously lose DPS if you cancel an attack and if this happens to fall on the last of your mana you can Bliz 3, bliz 1 or thunder 2 then Fire 3 to immediately get back into kicking arse.
Also if i'm just fighting trash mobs, feeling lazy and actively want to avoid this happening I just wait until I see the Firestarter notification pop up on my char and then hit my Fire 3.

#1 interupting casts?! lmfao, you did this?
#2 if we were to get stacks of firestarter... at 40% proc rate you would have such a dps increase it would be insane would almost always have a firestarter up so follow fire 3 after every fire 1... Thats why They nerfed the double dip on spell speed from Umbral 3 to fire 3, fire1. Shit was OP
#3 "lol", again about interupting casts.